A reality check for most makers

Hi Phillip,

Good job, you made perfect sense.

I did an article for Shawn Ellis ( a member here) for KI's last issue.

I did an article on Brion Tomberlin (a member here) for Blade..next issue.

I just finished articles for Matt Lamey and Steve Gatlin (both members here) for the next issue of KI

I will be doing an article on Phillip Patton for Knives Illustrated after the Blade Show. I suspect he will pick up a few orders off of that along with his JS stamp at the Blade Show.

Bruce Voyles asked me to write articles on makers I thought were doing really good work and had potential

Steve Shackelford at Blade both assigns articles to me and asks me for my opinion similar to what Bruce asks for.

For those makers who have had photos taken by a professional photographer, such as Coop, Chuck Ward or Terrill Hoffman. Do themselves a huge favor as these photographer's work is always accepted by the knife magazines.

So in my case, those makers who are working with me stand a good chance of having their knives in a magazines (in some cases the photos are free) accompanied by an article by yours truly.

However, after having read all this "I ain't selling my labor at a discount talk" I believe that starting with you Phillip. I will have to receive 20% of the total sale cost from any knives you sell due directly to the article! LOL :D :D

For those of you who have not checked out Phillip you should do so.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
Hi Richard,

So you will have set limits as to how hard the buyer can use the knife.

If the the owner violates your limit of use. Will he still annoy you if he sells the knife?

So just to review:

No one can buy a knife from you to resell...unless it is you.

Any owner of one of your knives can only use the knife within your prescribed guidelines for use. Failure to do this will negate your offer to buy back the knife.

Consequently, if the sell the knife (after you turned it down) you would still have a problem with that.

Quite the unique sales strategy. Good luck with that.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
ptgdvc said:
Les,

Where do these makers get the idea that it perfectly ok for them to exploit the public by by charging HUNDREDS of dollars for $40 raw materials and a little of their spare time??? I bet half of them don't pay any taxes either.

It is a disgrace, imho.

P
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I'd be more than happy to send you the $40 in materials and see what you come up with.

Is this your issue with knifemakers? That we take the supposed $40 and charge you the going rate for a knife? I'd take a guess that most makers earn less than $15 an hour labor per knife, what would you have the labor rate be?

Is the labor rate of a college student less than that of someone holding a master's degree? what about the labor rate of a PhD holder as opposed to an undergraduate? Why do you pay one more than the other? because of level of knowledge, why should makers be different? In just about every career/avocation I can think of, the longer you've been at it it or your supposed level of competence the more your labor rate is.

P, private me for your $40 in knife materials :D
 
Hi Will,

The handle material that Peter puts on the knives he has built costs more than $40. Let there be no doubt he knows that custom knives cost more than $40 worth of materials. He was trying to make a joke. He forgot the :D

Not to pick on Richard j, but if you look at the photo of the stag handled knife on his site. I believe you could get the materials for $40 for that knife. Note I said materials.

Is the labor rate of a college student less than that of someone holding a master's degree? what about the labor rate of a PhD holder as opposed to an undergraduate? Why do you pay one more than the other? because of level of knowledge, why should makers be different? In just about every career/avocation I can think of, the longer you've been at it it or your supposed level of competence the more your labor rate is.
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Does that "labor" rate apply to a dealer with 20 years experience and a Masters degree? :D (NOTE THE :D)

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
richard j said:
i dont mind selling to anyone thats going to use a knife that i make. thats why i make them, to be used. i dont intend my knives to be bought and sold to whoever. i sold the bowie that put 10 stitches in my right hand with the understanding that the knife would never be sold and if he needed to sell it the knife would come back to me. it was sold but not to me which didnt go over too well with me. each knife i make becomes a part of me which some people just might not be able to understand until they actually try to make a knife. if they think its so easy, why dont they start making knives? this thread just rubbed me the wrong way and it almost had a negative effect on robert b. and his decision to get into making knives.
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this is just absolutely ridiculous. it sounds like DRM (digital rights management) for knives. richard, what if you went to a restaurant and ordered a big steak. you couldn't eat it all so you took it home. you have a friend over for lunch and make him a steak sandwich. do you need to check with the restaurant or the chef first to see if it's ok for your friend to eat the sandwich? i mean, they sold it to you not your friend. how about if you took it home in a doggie bag and fed it to your dog? i can hear the chef saying "i don't make steaks so you can feed them to your dog". wouldn't you feel like it's your money you spent on the steak and you can do whatever you want with it? the title of this thread is "a reality check for most makers" and i think you could use one.
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Jose,

I have written articles for Blade about makers who I have never had one of their knives or have just owned a few.

I have been interviewed by Blade, KI and Tactical Knives and have given positive statements about several makers who I do not have a "professional" relationship with.

Yes, it is about making money. Which does seem to be a sticking point with some who post on this forum.

My example about Sam Butler, yes I have made money with the sale of Sam's knives. Note, the 40 orders he received from my article...I received not one cent from Sam...nor did I expect it. Any discount Sam has ever given me was more than recouped with the orders that came from the article I wrote.

This is merely a guess, I would estimate that 75% of the makers out there are not in a "professional" relationship with 1 or more makers.

So for those makers who don't want to work with dealers. Let them know that and they will be more than happy to take their money elsewhere.

It is truly up to the maker if they want to work with a dealer or not.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Making money is great, it would be nice if we could all make as much as we desired, but someone else usually has to lose money in order for us to make it. Maybe we earned it, stole it, benefitted from another's misfortune, etc...

Your example of Mr. Butler is one where you seem to have earned your % and then some. I don't believe you expect all the smiths you work with will recieve the same kind of attention. Perhaps there are some whose knives did not sell well at all, maybe with brass or g. bone handles, or a customer who bought a knife for $xxxx and the maker's rep subsequently took a hit for whatever reason and his "value" was adjusted to $xxx? This is the risk we take when we "invest", in advertising or knives...

I don't think the sticky point is profit at all, it seems more like it's the "self promotion" that some people are adverse to. Dealers and their wares, collectors and their knives, posters and their opinions. :D

I'm rambling a bit but my point is we need to view what we read on here with more than one perspective. The information needs to be sifted through, perhaps with different sieves depending on what you're looking for, but it's not "pure" information.
 
les, until you actually put forth the effort to make a knife, i dont think you would or could understand what i mean.:p:D
 
richard j said:
i dont intend my knives to be bought and sold to whoever.
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Huh? Ever heard of property rights? If I give you my hard earned money, it's to buy a knife, not to borrow it. If I bought it, it's mine, I can do whatever I want with it, you have no say whatsoever. :confused:

Of course, it is your right to not sell the knife to me.
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Phillip,

However, after having read all this "I ain't selling my labor at a discount talk" I believe that starting with you Phillip. I will have to receive 20% of the total sale cost from any knives you sell due directly to the article! LOL :D :D

For those of you who have not checked out Phillip you should do so.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
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Hey, I never said that! :D
Looking forward to that article, and the free pictures! :D
Thanks for the additional plug...

In defense of Richard, he's coming at this whole thing from a completely different perspective. He makes knives for the love of the craft, not for a business. And he sells most, if not all, of his knives to friends of his.

Richard, we haven't actually discussed this in detail, so if my assessment is wrong, please correct me.... :foot:

I think there's enough room for both philosophies.
 
Richard,

les, until you actually put forth the effort to make a knife, i dont think you would or could understand what i mean.
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Oh so now your an elitist! If you haven't done what I have done you can't possibly understand what it is like or what it takes.....

Richard, I think you should pay attention to what CUSTOM KNIFE BUYERS like Joss and Roger are saying to you. Possibly you can't understand their position because you don't buy custom knives???

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
joss, when i sold that bowie to my friend, i sold it to him a lot cheaper than what i wanted for it with his word that he wouldnt sell it and if he needed money i would buy it back. a mans word means something to me until he goes back on it. this is why i feel the way i do.
les, you might be able to get the "materials" for $40. but without the skill to make the knife, all you have is $40. worth of material laying around.:p:D
 
les, i'm not a collector although i do have quite a few knives made by my friend art summers. i like to look at nice knives but thats all, i'm not into collecting knives only to have them laying around.
 
Richard,

That's fine, I was under the impression that you were talking generally about all your knives rather than specifically about one piece.
 
perhaps Richard could clarify that , I thought he was talking about all his knives , if he is referring to the one knife , I can see under those conditions how he could feel that way , but thats a relationship (friend ) issue and not one to base your future marketing/selling off of.
 
richard j said:
les, i'm not a collector although i do have quite a few knives made by my friend art summers. i like to look at nice knives but thats all, i'm not into collecting knives only to have them laying around.
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Huh? Isn't that collecting? What's the difference? Plenty of collectors are people with no more than 5 or 10 knives they bought from people they're very friendly with. :)
 
We have been through the dealer discount discussion many times before. As a newer maker, the things that you get from a reputable dealer who has a good customer list are "legitimacy" and exposure. Having your knives listed with a dealer can be like having an ad and/or article in one of the mags. Some may argue that a guy like Les may not have to advertise as much in the mags because he already has a large customer base, but so what? If he didn't have that base, you, the knifemaker would have to spend your dollars on an ad and last time I checked, they start somewhere north of $300 a month for 1/12 page B&W ad in the back of the book in Blade, assuming you sign on for every issue this year. I can see how someone like Mr. Lovett who has a huge backorder list may not see the point in selling to dealers at a discount, but for someone like me, it would make perfect sense.
 
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