A simply stunning knife (moved here from the Custom forum)

Mr. Schott: I didn't take it badly. You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. Since you actually make knives, I'll definitely listen more closely to your opinion than I do to most.

I'm just a buyer. One, I hope!, of many.

My opinion is just my opinion. When it comes to knives, I'm an expert in only one thing: my own opinion. I hope I never come across as putting anyone else's opinion down...or 'dissing' their work.

I respect people with the skill and energy to craft objects of beauty. In this case, knives. As long as I have the means, I'll support their work by buying it. I don't feel the need to fill the role of critic...your post indicates that role is already over-full.

For what it's worth, I appreciate knife makers and smiths. Maybe I'll get the chance to admire your craft first-hand someday. You can bet I won't drop it or dismiss it with a frown.
 
David Schott said:
Im with you, man. There is a widespread snobbery virus going around these days where people are mistaking their opinion and their purchased-backed bias for objective authoritative fact. Unfortunately, I am sure some very enthusiastic knife lovers have come, seen the "What i collect is the only true word of God" atmosphere, and moved on rather than having to defend everything they love to the bitter end. To each his own....maybe its simply exchanging statement like "This is wrong and has no place on this knife" with "I think that this is a poor choice given... and may have been a better choice with...."

Its a subtle difference, but the attitudes conveyed to the reader are vastly different. One I read as a worthless ego trip that offers no value to anyone but the writer, the other is a constructive topic that could open further discussion rather than disgust and argument.

We've all been guilty of it...im the first to admit that. But it doesnt take reading too many posts in galleries or the custom forum to learn who is willing to offer constructive review and commentary and who is just there to play the role of a self-bought expert...I personally dont think there are any experts when it comes to sole authorship custom work...maybe the large dealers, Mastersmiths, museum curators....some have been collecting knives for years and have their fingers on the pulse of the community and obviously have more to offer than ohers based on their experience...some have been collecting knives longer than ive been alive!

Im not saying everyone has to be objective as a museum curator or contest judge...but people at least need to turn on their internal filter and comment as such. This IS the place for opinions, reviews, statements of love and hate for trends or styles....but with that comes responsibility. Its just like any other freedom of speech topic. You have the right to say anything, but the repercussions may be that everyone thinks you are a tool and that some people might actually be pushed away from a shared interest rather than drawn towards it by intelligent discussion.

I am sure most will say "dude you need to not get all bent out of shape" or "the best makers can laugh at themselves"....or "everything i say is just my opinion, youre reading into it too much".....oh well. if someone came to my shop, picked up a knife I made and said half the disrespectful comments people here make off the cuff and with the same lack of common human respect shown on these forums, they would be out the door in the street so fast they wouldnt even feel my foot hit their ass on the way out. If the opinion is that of a customer who has purchased a knife, thats a whole different monster and obviously a different situation.

Respect is respect. Opinions are opinions. Disrespectful opinions should be greeted in kind, IMHO.

Some of this may hurt me as a maker...I think makers are expected to take any level of abuse, smile and keep chugging....my first knife show I had someone pick a knife up off the table, give it a 30 second once-over and rudely DROP it back on the table because they said I made the handle "all wrong" because they have big hands. My response was "well then go find a maker who makes knives for fat fingered a-holes(edit)"...im glad I said it and would respond in kind every time. I could have been a chump and shut my mouth, smiled, cleaned up the scratch he put in the knife, offered to make him a bigger one, kissed his butt and maybe got a sale, but why bother? Maybe Im a purist or a fool but I dont sell knives to a-holes...its a two way steet.

Maybe the problem is unavoidable, with people who have poured hours and years into pieces wandering the same halls as people who have seen two pictures of a knife and want to comment. Im sure change needs to happen on both sides, with makers coming to forums with the understanding that all is not peaches and cream when they post a knife and purchasers realizing that others might make them feel stupid if they choose to post what they have bought and collectors using self control to state their likes and dislikes in a manner that keeps constructive discussion flowing... Maybe everyone is accountable and maybe im just reading too deeply into things.

ive edited this about a million times and anticipate a lot of flak for it as others have taken...im going to cut my losses and end it here.
Click to expand...


Great Post.

Personally I feel like collectors/clients should have the right to say whatever they want about a knife.

Whether its in person or on a public forum.

I dont always like what they say but they make the wheels go round.

My conversation with Steven this past year shed light on a few things for me and even he has stated his comments here were light hearted in nature.

The collectors step up to the plate and spend their hard earned money which IMO gives them the right to be critical if they feel the need.

Just my Opinion Guys!!!

I dont share the same opinion in regards to Knifemakers.

I personally believe that when a Knifemaker enters a thread started by a client and makes statements such as Bruce Evans made he has crossed the line of all decency.

Bruce with all due respect if your knives are not selling why dont you change your game plan as opposed to critizing other peoples work.

What you did here.

Posting pictures of your knives
Posting Reviews of your knives
Posting Pricing Structure of your knives
Claiming that if he hand rubbed the blade and used Ivory it would be more expensive.

Its wrong Dude!!

But you are right about one thing, some of his knives are more expensive like the one that sold at Blade a couple years ago for $10,000

Is business that bad Dude??

Is this the only way you can sell knives???

I mean WTF???
 
Burchtree said:
I've tried my best to stay out of all this, but all this crap is really getting to me. I love knives -- all sorts. I love the custom world, the collectors, the shows, the knifemakers and everything that goes with them -- except this. Lately I've had a hard time even stepping into my shop because I'm just saddened and disgusted with the knife world lately. I for one love the fact that there are so many different styles of blades and ways of making them. It sure as hell makes a knife show a whole lot more interesting.

Who has the right to say what is best, or "worth more?" The market, and that's it. You don't like a knife -- that's fine, but don't belittle someone else's taste. I'm sure everyone here at one point has had "you spent how much for that knife???" asked them at some point. So why are we doing the same to other collectors and knife enthusiasts?
Click to expand...

I'm getting tired with that "everything goes" attitude. Collectors can and should voice their opinion when they see poor designs being made and sold at crazy prices. Yes, beauty and elegance are hard to define objectively - but that doesn't mean that all concepts are equally valid. Seasoned collectors have seen many a fad come and go, and in the process hurt many, many would be collectors. Those events have long term effect on the knife world and they hurt indirectly everyone of us. Makers leave this hobby disgusted because they see 3-piece knives with no effort put into them (tappered tang anyone?) sell for 50% more than they can get for finely hand finished unique pieces. Collectors leave the hobby because they get stuck with a knife they invested a large amount into, and can't recoup.

Yes, the market is the ultimate judge of the value of anything, but a market that is rational over the long term does have short term crazyness. It is good for people to point that out. Also, a market's efficiency is directly impacted by the amount of information that is available to participants. It is precisely those cozy markets where no one says anything bad about anything that are least efficient.

People who've been around a while know that to justify a price of >$1,000, a knife has better generate some pretty universal respect (not liking) from makers and collectors.

It is to our common interest, both makers and collectors, to call out those fads as early and clearly as possible. We have no duty not to offend fad followers, be they mall-ninjas or interframe-fanatics.
 
Snody said:
Personally I feel like collectors/clients should have the right to say whatever they want about a knife.

Whether its in person or on a public forum.

I dont always like what they say but they make the wheels go round.

My conversation with Steven this past year shed light on a few things for me and even he has stated his comments here were light hearted in nature.

The collectors step up to the plate and spend their hard earned money which IMO gives them the right to be critical if they feel the need.
Click to expand...

Completely 100% true...and I completely missed stating that. I hope my post didnt detract from the simple fact that without collectors, knifemakers would all be sitting at home with a house full of their own work. Perhaps my reaction is just as callous as the ones i was trying to comment on and in that case, it serves to teach me the same lesson I was trying to convey. Can anyone else tell I am nervous about my post? :)

:thumbup:
 
David Schott said:
Disclaimer: I apologize in advance for any harsh words I have said that people take badly. My post was not directed at any one particular individual and I know sometimes when you read a post, you assume its about yourself...ive done the same a million times...its the "oh crap, is he talking about me?" syndrome...we all love knives and have different styles, modes of communication, different levels of tact and bare knuckled honesty, and certainly different tastes...and for the record, the few knives i have posted here did receive some of the best constructive criticism I have received. lately, I have just felt more and more pains of empathy for collectors and makers alike...everyone seems to have noticed a flare up in hostility around here....i predict the onset of nicer weather in the spring will solve everything.
Click to expand...

LOL.....point taken. I am a new smith and I beat myself up long before anyone else has a chance to. I will freely admit that my opinion of this knife is purely subjective and this comes from my short time as a maker and my long time as a user and small fry collector. I must confess that I didn't really like a lot of the Strider knives even before this recent blowup, Some I didn't like because of the blade shape, grind, decoration, etc...like this one. Others have what I consider a relatively pleasing or at worst, innocuous shape, but I REALLY don't like paracord handles and that is from using experience. I never really liked the image that Strider put forth, be it with the tiger striped baldes or the whole "hardcore" pitch. Seemed kinda juvenile and undignified to me.....but then again, most of his knives are sold to men MUCH younger than me....lol. I feel the same way about TOPS and others in that regard. Some may say that my knives and the ones that I really like are too old fashioned or not rugged enough for the field because they are based on old designs and have natural handle material, etc. My initial reaction might be to look down my nose, but in the end,we are all in the knife game and it seems to be doing quite well. I am definately happy about that:thumbup: :D
 
Didnt mean to sound like I was on a ego trip or whinning or anyof that.I know it all sounds that way....

This was not meant as a way to sell anything of mine!!!!!
I wasnt knocking the original knife !!!!
I was trying (not so well I guess)to say I was knowledgeable about Tacticals and the high end customs...I have made both...
Sorry to offend anyone,wasnt my point...

Guess it is time I shut off the computer as I have the shop till doc gets me straightened out and my head thinks correctly.Done this once already and sense I am back at square one I will do it again.

The one thing I have learned from this whole post,is that there is a market for all knives and the price range is the same for all markets....I will just make my knives the best I can and if someone likes them then great.

Later guys,
Bruce
 
Too many people seem nervous. Worried about the impact of honestly stating their opinions.

That's wrong.

Say what you want, say what you feel. If you say it with respect and try to stay positive, people should give you respect. There should be no impact -- no angry attacks. Disagreement is another thing entirely -- nothing wrong with that.

I thought BladeForums was a place for an open and honest exchange of information...and opinions. I don't want any voices silenced.
 
OldPhysics said:
Too many people seem nervous. Worried about the impact of honestly stating their opinions.

.
Click to expand...

well, there is honestly stating your opinions and there is just being a jerk...for example, if I came on this board and said:

"i hate sissy fairy mother of pearl knives, and this one looks particularly fruity...who's the idiot who bought this one for more than $100"

you probably wouldn't appreciate it....nor would the maker or other collectors...

RL
 
Bruce Evans said:
Didnt mean to sound like I was on a ego trip or whinning or anyof that.I know it all sounds that way....

This was not meant as a way to sell anything of mine!!!!!
I wasnt knocking the original knife !!!!
I was trying (not so well I guess)to say I was knowledgeable about Tacticals and the high end customs...I have made both...
Sorry to offend anyone,wasnt my point...

Guess it is time I shut off the computer as I have the shop till doc gets me straightened out and my head thinks correctly.Done this once already and sense I am back at square one I will do it again.

Later guys,
Bruce
Click to expand...

Thanks for saying that Bruce.

I am not attacking you and you havent offended me.

Your post above demonstrates my point exactly.

You claim yourself that you were not knocking the Strider Knife.

The problem in my perception is that you are an Accomplished Knifemaker.

In my opinion Knifemakers should refrain from making negative comments about other makers work on public internet forums.

Thats just my Opinion.

When a new collector shows up on the scene and reads these threads for the first time what is he supposed to think when an Accomplished Knifemaker with over three thousand posts on this board says he thinks another makers work is overpriced???

I mean no offense to anyone but guys everyone has to make a living.

If anything why dont all Knifemakers work together to Raise Prices across the Board.

I am not suggesting that prices need to be raised mind you, only pointing out that this is a very, very, small market. It doesnt matter if you build Bowies or Tactical Knives. The market is small and interconnected.

How can posting that one makers work is overpriced help the Custom Knife Industry. Is it going to have a positive effect and make other knives worth more??

You stated that you worked for minimum wage and you are a talented bladesmith???

Dude one of the reasons you and many other makers are in that situation is because of stuff like this.

Knifemakers claiming that ZYX knife is not worth the money.

Its a cycle that ends up holding the entire price structure at an absolute low.

You can buy the same Titanium Folder today for $500 that was $500 almost ten years ago??

Why havent prices gone up is my question???

In this instance I felt like what you said disprespected several people in the following order

1. The Customer
2. The Dealer
3. The Maker

Thanks for making your meanings clear.
 
Snody said:
Great Post.

Personally I feel like collectors/clients should have the right to say whatever they want about a knife.

Whether its in person or on a public forum.

I dont always like what they say but they make the wheels go round.

My conversation with Steven this past year shed light on a few things for me and even he has stated his comments here were light hearted in nature.

The collectors step up to the plate and spend their hard earned money which IMO gives them the right to be critical if they feel the need.
Click to expand...


Mike,

Thanks for posting.

This should not be a maker vs. maker thread, a collector vs. collector thread, or a maker vs. collector thread.

THIS collector does not think that we have the RIGHT to unleash harsh criticism or invective towards anyone, automatically.

It is balanced by many of the thoughts that Joss expressed. I have brought over 30 new collectors into the fold in my time. Some of them(not many) are still active collectors. They get burnt out on the same issues that makers get burnt out on. Too expensive(materials/tools, in the case of makers), no assurance of not getting burned(lack of health insurance, in the case of makers), surly, difficult people(everyone:D ).

Look, people make mistakes. I do, you do, everyone does. I TRY to learn from past ones, and not repeat them, and it works a lot of the time. I TRY to cut people some slack. A lot of collectors are not able to do this, especially newbies.

I have a knife that came to me jacked up, new. I sent it back to the maker, and he had it for 4 months, and sent it back to me, and it is STILL jacked up. Luckily, I am over getting too wound up about it, or yelling for their head. I'm just going to TRY and have some patience, and hope that it will work out. This knife sells for $650.00 and cost me $495.00. How would a newb take this?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
RL said:
well, there is honestly stating your opinions and there is just being a jerk...for example, if I came on this board and said:

"i hate sissy fairy mother of pearl knives, and this one looks particularly fruity...who's the idiot who bought this one for more than $100"

you probably wouldn't appreciate it....nor would the maker or other collectors...

RL
Click to expand...

I agree! How could I not? You can throw your opinion in people's faces...or you can state it with respect (and maybe a little humor).

I'm fer the second and agin the first.

Does that make sense? Still, I'd rather hear people's opinions than shock them into silence...
 
Kohai999 said:
Mike,

Thanks for posting.

This should not be a maker vs. maker thread, a collector vs. collector thread, or a maker vs. collector thread.

THIS collector does not think that we have the RIGHT to unleash harsh criticism or invective towards anyone, automatically.

It is balanced by many of the thoughts that Joss expressed. I have brought over 30 new collectors into the fold in my time. Some of them(not many) are still active collectors. They get burnt out on the same issues that makers get burnt out on. Too expensive(materials/tools, in the case of makers), no assurance of not getting burned(lack of health insurance, in the case of makers), surly, difficult people(everyone:D ).

Look, people make mistakes. I do, you do, everyone does. I TRY to learn from past ones, and not repeat them, and it works a lot of the time. I TRY to cut people some slack. A lot of collectors are not able to do this, especially newbies.

I have a knife that came to me jacked up, new. I sent it back to the maker, and he had it for 4 months, and sent it back to me, and it is STILL jacked up. Luckily, I am over getting too wound up about it, or yelling for their head. I'm just going to TRY and have some patience, and hope that it will work out. This knife sells for $650.00 and cost me $495.00. How would a newb take this?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Thanks Steven.

Dude like I said after I talked to you and understood your way of expressing yourself, your posts made alot more sense to me.

I started buying custom knives before I was a knifemaker.

I try to buy a knife at every show I attend just to give back and spread the love.

My collection is small in comparison to yours and the most I have ever been able to spend on one piece has been $2,650.00

I cant just buy an knife because I like it.

I have to like it and I have to know that if worst comes to worst I can flip the thing and get at least most of my money back.

What I am trying to say is that percieved value will enable the owner of this knife to sell said knife at full retail while the same is not true of the Bruce Evans Knife.

I simply cant afford to purchase knives that will not hold their resale.
 
David Schott said:
ive edited this about a million times and anticipate a lot of flak for it as others have taken...im going to cut my losses and end it here.
Click to expand...

I sure can't see anything in your post that should have flak heading in your direction. You are bound to have an opinion on something like this and you stated it in a respectful manner.

I'm one that tries to give constructive criticism without looking down my nose at what some maker or collector might be very proud of. In this thread I probably should have found a descriptive word other than ugly to convey my thoughts about the Strider knife, but in the end, ugly is what I think that knife is.

Should we refrain from being brutally honest for fear of hurting people's feelings? I personally don't care if someone posts that they think one of my knives is ugly. I didn't purchase the knife to please someone else. If someone honestly thinks one of my knives is ugly, then to that person it is ugly. They are welcomr to their opinion.

As far as a knife being worth what is its selling price? It's all in how you look at things. If you are purchasing a knife because you like it and the price is not a concern, then who am I to tell you that you paid too much? If you are looking at the knife as an investment then people should tell you if they think you overpaying. However, that kind of advice means more from people that know the short and long term investment trends, as opposed to those that don't. I only give investment advice on the few makers that I know really well. There are many others that would be better to get that kind of advice from.
 
Its all a simple matter of opinion. Some guy marries a chick that he thinks is amazing and gorgeous whereas another guy thinks the same chick is ugly. Does that make her worth less to her husband? Absolutely not. He knows that she is everything that he wants and that is all that matters.
 
RL said:
well, there is honestly stating your opinions and there is just being a jerk...for example, if I came on this board and said:

"i hate sissy fairy mother of pearl knives, and this one looks particularly fruity...who's the idiot who bought this one for more than $100"

you probably wouldn't appreciate it....nor would the maker or other collectors...

RL
Click to expand...

If you used words like "sissy", "fairy" or "fruity", I would fall out of my chair, laughing.

Hey, mother of pearl is an acquired taste. It is not for people who have a remote possibility of dropping knives on anything other than carpet. It is not a tough, durable material. Will still look good in 100 years, though, if you DON'T drop it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Order said:
Its all a simple matter of opinion. Some guys marries a chick that he thinks is amazing and gorgeous whereas another guy thinks the same chick is ugly. Does that make her worth less to her husband? Absolutely not. He knows that she is everything that he wants and that is all that matters.
Click to expand...

The analogy is not entirely correct.

Dude is not going to try and sell his WIFE down the line sometime. Yes, on one hand it is a matter of taste, on the other hand, if all your friends are telling you that your wife is butt ugly, and you choose to ignore them, and do what you wanna do, you deserve what you get, either happiness or misery.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I think it is accurate. If the guy is no longer able to be with his wife, someone else who sees in her what he used to see will want her.

Kohai999 said:
The analogy is not entirely correct.

Dude is not going to try and sell his WIFE down the line sometime. Yes, on one hand it is a matter of taste, on the other hand, if all your friends are telling you that your wife is butt ugly, and you choose to ignore them, and do what you wanna do, you deserve what you get, either happiness or misery.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...
 
I'm making no comments on the piece in this thread.

According to some, I am already doing my bit to destroy the entire knife industry. Isn't hyperbole wonderful?

I will only say this about the tenor of this thread: When we have lost the ability to call a spade a spade, according to our own tastes and sense of value, we have only managed to become politically correct, which is way out of place on any knife board.

Fact of the matter is that some "art" just flat out blows by any standard. Sure, certain things become timeless, and certain things are forever damned as faddish or trendy. . . .

. . .But certain things are always the equivalent of a velvet Elvis portrait, no matter who is admiring it under their black light.

Sorry. I just commented on the piece in this thread after all.:p
 
Boats said:
I'm making no comments on the piece in this thread.

According to some, I am already doing my bit to destroy the entire knife industry. Isn't hyperbole wonderful?

I will only say this about the tenor of this thread: When we have lost the ability to call a spade a spade, according to our own tastes and sense of value, we have only managed to become politically correct, which is way out of place on any knife board.

Fact of the matter is that some "art" just flat out blows by any standard. Sure, certain things become timeless, and certain things are forever damned as faddish or trendy. . . .

. . .But certain things are always the equivalent of a velvet Elvis portrait, no matter who is admiring it under their black light.

Sorry. I just commented on the piece in this thread after all.:p
Click to expand...

Regarding Elvis.

I lived in SouthHaven MS for several years.

My house was about 6 miles from Graceland.

Everytime family visited guess where they wanted to go???

Graceland Baby!!

They were sellling Elvis Toenail Clippings that were retrieved from the Shag Carpet in the Jungle Room.

The Toenails were framed and came with a certificate of authenticity.

The small ones were $250 and the larger (big toe) nails went up to about $500

They also had Elvis Sweat in little sealed bottles for about $400

If you buy an Elvis Toenail clipping for $400 did you get ripped off??

No!

Why??

Because you can sell it on Ebay any day of the week.

Intrinsic Value.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of this knife it has Intrinsic value and the owner will be able to easily sell it at full retail in contrast to many "prettier" knives that wont bring 50% in the aftermarket.

Just be careful which toenails you buy because they dont all appreciate in value.
 
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