ABS Expo 2014 Report

jjtjr said:
I have a question, why is that black car parked in a Handicapped area, I don't see a placard? ---Jim
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Jim- The owner has been terribly crippled by his car payment. :eek: ;) :D GREAT post above... very well said IMHO. :)



Thank you guys for making this thread evolve into such a great discussion. I don't have any answers :foot: but I have enjoyed reading the carefully thought out replies that you folks have submitted. :thumbup:

I think it's very impressive that guys like Josh Smith, who is a well-established Ms and has been heavily involved in supporting the ABS... have taken the time (and stuck his neck out) to share his thoughts/feelings on the subject.


Thanks guys. :)
 
First off forgive me for butting in, as i can't hold a candle to the rest of you in terms of years, shows, or general knife knowledge.

Since i joined BF and learned about ABS knifemakers, i've loved coming into this part of the forum and reading everyone's expertise and opinions on everything. Joe has really been a springboard to different traditional knife makers i've taken a large interest in as well as other collectors i would assume. I think he's correct in the correct market is heavily leaning at the "tactical" side. But one thing i don't see in comments is not that it's because of the style of knife/materials/etc, but i feel like a big part might do with "community". The aforementioned, yes, is a big kicker. But i think what has kept it going and holding it together is the community surrounding whoever that maker may be.

When i see stock removal type knives go for prices higher than ABS MS knives, it's personally something i can't justify in spending. No disrespect to those makers. But what i do see is that these makers touch base with their customers more openly. Specifically having their own forums somewhere, and those collectors having a community surrounding that particular maker. For me i feel like this is what keeps that market strong. They feel they have a connection to this person they're supporting and may or may not get to be a part of something coming from that maker down the line.

Personally if the prices were the same between two knives, i would go for the forged blade first. Being a younger collector though compared to some, i do feel a little on edge sometimes if wanting to contact a maker as not to bother them since my questions may come off unintelligible compared to other collectors contacting them :P Though all the people i've ever contacted have always been very kind(Paul Long always makes me feel like i'm back home every time i get to talk to him :D ) The internet footprint of the traditional makers feels very small compared to the others. And that's what i think keeps the market smaller compared to the others.

It's always great reading everyone's post in this forum. I can't really contribute like everyone else, but it's definitely my favorite part of BF. Thanks for the pics OP, it's because of threads like this i can see the shows i can't be apart of :thumbup:

jeremy
 
NickWheeler said:
Jim- The owner has been terribly crippled by his car payment. :eek: ;) :D GREAT post above... very well said
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That is a great one I wish I would of thought of it :)

He told me his car payment and it was equivalent to about a Mortage on a half million dollar home
 
I want to throw something in that's been touched on.......demographics. As a collector of MANY different and diverse types of cutlery, IMHO, it's not only about the knives themselves but how they're marketed and to whom.

On one side of the isle there are the 'Good 'Ol Boys' in their bolo ties and cowboy hats and on the other side are the tattooed, pierced, more 'colorful' younger crowd. I'm not a fan of the so called Lotteries, Silent Auctions, bidding, etc., but do they create EXCITEMENT! At about anytime during the Blade Show there's either hooting, hollering, cheering, gridlock around those tables, etc., because of the way those guys are 'marketing' their knives. Not saying that works for everyone but the folks that pull it off have a devout following and seem to do extremely well with their customs, mid-techs, and factory collaborations.

I'm not suggesting that Larry Fuegen or Jerry Fisk get a few tats and an earring but there's got to be something or some middle ground that would attract this younger crowd across the isle and past the booths to the other side of the room. Yes, it'd take some doing, and wouldn't happen overnight, but it'd be something to shoot for. I've attended some of the ABS Hammer-Ins, have been an ABS Member for over 20 years, and really enjoy myself, but then again I'm damn near 60 years young as are most of the folks involved and the attendees. I know of at least one ABS MS that has 'crossed the line' and is making a great go with folders and other assorted knives other than upscale Damascus Bowies and Hunters, using the myriad of skills he learned making such but gearing his work towards the younger crowd by using titanium, Timascus, carbon-fibre, Mokuti, etc.

I personally think that a slight shift in materials used would create a dramatic difference in the perceived knife....and perception is everything these days. I guess what I'm saying is to not get stuck with a particular genre of knives but try something different using some of the latest, greatest materials and putting the same amount of creativity, passion and energy into it and see what happens.... :)

My $.02

EDITED TO ADD: I look at Everett McGhee as a prime example of an ABS member making a wonderful 'Tactical' knife...all forged but offering Kydex shoulder harness', Parkerized finishes, wrapped handles, Mircarta handles, laying up his own carbon-fibre, etc....some of my more favorite knives.
 
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김원진;13153877 said:
First off forgive me for butting in, as i can't hold a candle to the rest of you in terms of years, shows, or general knife knowledge.

Since i joined BF and learned about ABS knifemakers, i've loved coming into this part of the forum and reading everyone's expertise and opinions on everything. Joe has really been a springboard to different traditional knife makers i've taken a large interest in as well as other collectors i would assume. I think he's correct in the correct market is heavily leaning at the "tactical" side. But one thing i don't see in comments is not that it's because of the style of knife/materials/etc, but i feel like a big part might do with "community". The aforementioned, yes, is a big kicker. But i think what has kept it going and holding it together is the community surrounding whoever that maker may be.

When i see stock removal type knives go for prices higher than ABS MS knives, it's personally something i can't justify in spending. No disrespect to those makers. But what i do see is that these makers touch base with their customers more openly. Specifically having their own forums somewhere, and those collectors having a community surrounding that particular maker. For me i feel like this is what keeps that market strong. They feel they have a connection to this person they're supporting and may or may not get to be a part of something coming from that maker down the line.

Personally if the prices were the same between two knives, i would go for the forged blade first. Being a younger collector though compared to some, i do feel a little on edge sometimes if wanting to contact a maker as not to bother them since my questions may come off unintelligible compared to other collectors contacting them :P Though all the people i've ever contacted have always been very kind(Paul Long always makes me feel like i'm back home every time i get to talk to him :D ) The internet footprint of the traditional makers feels very small compared to the others. And that's what i think keeps the market smaller compared to the others.

It's always great reading everyone's post in this forum. I can't really contribute like everyone else, but it's definitely my favorite part of BF. Thanks for the pics OP, it's because of threads like this i can see the shows i can't be apart of :thumbup:

jeremy
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Jeremy

Thank you for the kind words

You and collectors like you are the future of not only forged blades but custom knives in general.

Never be afraid to voice your thoughts. If the young in this industry do not voice their thoughts the industry will not know which direction to follow
 
Jason Fry said:
I know what you're saying, Don. I said "sell some knives" a bunch, because that's what I think it takes for most knifemakers.

The organizations are only tangentially interested in sales. My understanding (although limited) is that both orgs. are teaching organizations, whose main purpose is to promote and teach the techniques and virtues of custom knives. The orgs should continue that mission in my opinion.

On the other hand, many of the members have to sell knives to pay the bills. Since the org doesn't exist without the members, the orgs ought necessarily be interested in sales, so that the individuals are successful.

So I can modify my initial post's sentiment a little, although the point is hidden in there.

We need to get together and sell some knives, true. We also need to stay true to the mission of both orgs to teach and promote custom knives in general. IMO the two mission points are not exclusive.
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Jason, we're pretty much on the same page, but I have to clear up a bit of history. The Guild started with a show, 'play by our rules and you can come sell knives at our show'. The guild has implemented some teaching and many members teach & help each other, but teaching wasn't their main focus. The ABS started with a school, well the school came a bit later but the intent was teaching blade forging. There may have been a small show in the beginning (don't remember), but it wasn't the main focus. The Guild show started in 1972 and was The Show until around 12-14 years ago. The ABS show started 2005 or so.


My personal observation is the Guild started to decline when they ran off the Tactical makers (there's that Tactical term again:)). And all the in house fighting. The ABS started to decline when they dropped the cutting comps. Just my observations from someone on the outside.

I would like to see both orgs do well, change with the times and prosper.
 
here, and elsewhere, we'll start seeing a younger demographic moving into leadership roles which will lead to entities/institutions/schools of thought either dying out or evolving.

Generally speaking, I think it's up to the older demographic, who hold the reigns of leadership, to start sharing their power and encouraging involvement by the next generation. If that doesn't occur, then I think it's safe to say that successive generations will start their own thing, while the older constructs face extinction.

If the boomer gen that holds all the power here and elsewhere continues to grip desperately to that power, the potential for leaving a legacy behind, (in the ABS, that legacy is education, as has been pointed out) will be greatly reduced if not eradicated entirely. That would be a true shame.

With the ABS and elsewhere, it behooves those who truly believe in leaving a valuable legacy to put their self interests aside and welcome newcomers into positions of leadership, and allowing them some rope when it comes to the scope, in order to evolve into something that continues to matter.
 
Thanks, Don. As I said before, I'm not as interested in the history as much as the future. I want to be a part of a thriving knifemaking organization when I'm 60.

Let me use a church analogy, since that's one of my fields of study....

A church is about maintaining certain traditions. A church is also about evangelism, making new converts who will themselves carry on the traditions. Unless there's both "holding the line" and teaching new folks, the congregation will not outlive its founding members. In this analogy, I'm a "new convert" to both organizations. Growth happens in churches when they clarify what they stand for, then go about the process of making converts. I can't imagine that either the Guild or the ABS won't follow the same pattern.

Generally speaking, I think it's up to the older demographic, who hold the reigns of leadership, to start sharing their power and encouraging involvement by the next generation. If that doesn't occur, then I think it's safe to say that successive generations will start their own thing, while the older constructs face extinction.
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Lorien is on target. Churches go through the same process every generation, and have to decide how to move forward. I would suspect that the Guild and the ABS formed in the same ways, in one way or another. Somebody wasn't satisfied with the status quo, and so they started a new thing.
 
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Good analogy Jason, but we need both kinds of "converts" new Makers & Collectors. There has to be balance there...
 
Some really great posts

I'm involved in a lot of different industries

Interest in Archery is huge right now

Not only bow hunting but the surge in traditional archery (recurves and longbows)

I have been a recurve shooter my whole life so this interest in traditional archery is nothing new to me but with the advent of movies like the Hunger Games, etc they have sparked a huge interest among the youth

At the many shoots that I attended this year we could not believe the young ladies shooting

My own daughters shoot and I have taught archery to many kids from their school

The company I am associated with is LAS and they are the largest archery importer in the country

They have used this spring board to grow the sport and industry like at no other time

My point is with the popularity of productions like Game Of Thrones , Lord of the Rings , The Hobbit and the many other films that heavily feature forged blades...... if we can not find growth now we never will

The large Archery companies are taking advantage of the interest from a new buying market and putting out products to attract this group

Some custom Bowyers with an eye to the future while still producing gorgeous bows with beautiful wood work are also producing ILF rigs with modern materials that focus on all out performance

Now there is an industry that is gonna make hay while the sun shines :)
 
Dudley: Thanks for the kind words.

Dudley et al.:

I've been following this thread with interest all weekend but didn't feel compelled to add my thoughts until now. I make black knives with man-made materials and a variety of finishes because they appeal to me, but also because I have found a market for them, and given I'm attempting to make a living producing knives, this is crucial to me. That said, I would not be making the knives I am if not for the ABS and their educational outreach. The ABS is very important to me, and I love the people who comprise it, but I also feel that times change and you can either embrace that change or watch it pass you by. The Model T was state of the art when it was introduced, and there is most certainly a place for the Model T in the hearts of car collectors, but not everyone wants to commute in a Model T. It is my goal to produce knives to the ABS standard which appeal to a broad market. The ABS Journeyman Test taught me how to create a straight, symmetrical, well-finished knife, and I have no issues with the current test standards. I just don't think that's where we need to stop. You don't always get tested on the things you want to learn, but learning those core elements makes it easier to master the skills you want to embrace. We all have to walk before we can run, but please don't limit the direction in which we go because that is what makes us individuals and grows our common cause. A great knife is simply a great knife - it doesn't matter if it is forged or ground, natural materials or man-made. Neither the materials nor the techniques determine the quality of the knife, but rather the mastery of those materials and techniques. The value, however, is determined by the buyer.

E. Scott McGhee (edited by his wife Lydia)
 
Don Hanson III said:
Jason, we're pretty much on the same page, but I have to clear up a bit of history. The Guild started with a show, 'play by our rules and you can come sell knives at our show'. The guild has implemented some teaching and many members teach & help each other, but teaching wasn't their main focus. The ABS started with a school, well the school came a bit later but the intent was teaching blade forging. There may have been a small show in the beginning (don't remember), but it wasn't the main focus. The Guild show started in 1972 and was The Show until around 12-14 years ago. The ABS show started 2005 or so.


My personal observation is the Guild started to decline when they ran off the Tactical makers (there's that Tactical term again:)). And all the in house fighting. The ABS started to decline when they dropped the cutting comps. Just my observations from someone on the outside.

I would like to see both orgs do well, change with the times and prosper.
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Don,
Come to the next Guild show and refresh your observations. There are plenty of tactical knives and tactical Knifemakers.
We even give awards for tactical knife categories.
Come join us!:)
 
Thanks Jason
We are here to teach our probationary members and apprentice smiths to become the best makers they can be. Now if we tell after they become the best makers in the world, and they can only teach and not sell, both org. Are in DEEP trouble.
We are here to teach and sell our knives. Both Master smiths and junior smiths are welcome to come to the KMG show.
Gene Baskett President KMG
 
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When I took my first bladesmithing class it was under Joe Keeslar. His motto was "pass it on". That fits nicely with the ABS mission but what's more Joe lives that by helping generously anyone who asks. He was and still is a fine example of the ABS's mission, in my opinion.

A few years later I got my MS stamp and started getting hints that "politics" was manifesting itself to me. I have intentionally tried to avoid politics and anything that smelled like it. But I have come to face the fact that politics is in every organization that humans can create. I have seen posts that insinuate that an ABS Matersmith that does not attend the ABS Expo is not loyal to the ABS. I have never been in San Antonio for an Expo or anything else. I do not think of myself as disloyal to the ABS. My reasons are financial as well as occupational, not a matter of loyalty or, at least, not to the ABS. My finances involve my family and they come first above an organization. This is not a religion, it's a knife making organization and I think we should remember that. There are priorities, for me at least. That is coming from someone (Me) who donates time and knives, occasionally, and teaches not only at the schools but in most cases freely and with no strings attached. I believe in Joe's motto "pass it on" and I will continue to do so.

I drove 10 hours to Louisville to get a hotel room and attend the Guild show for 2 hours the next morning and then drive home. Is that crazy? I just wanted to see what it was like and meet the board members. I was treated very well and decided to join and intend to be there at the next show. Is that disloyal to the ABS? Not the way I see it. I can legally and morally be a part of both. My choice. As long as I am living up to my obligations to the ABS, it's my right. I disclosed my intentions to join the guild to some of the noteworthy ABS board members and to a man they were in support. One even said "we all should also be guild members".

I am relatively new to the knife making world in terms of years. But I have still lived a little. Left up to the Guild and the ABS, a combined show may never happen and that is too bad. Perhaps each thinks it waters down their mission. Again, this is not religion. It might take a third party to make something that amounts to the same thing (a combined show) happen. I limit myself to a low number of shows to attend, picking which ones I believe will be best based upon a few factors, not the least of which is; will I stand to lose or profit? Time is also limited for me. I do not like to attend shows unless my wife attends. We agree on that so that means I have to think of her work schedule. You can see how two shows in close proximity can be a problem.

An organization is represented by its leaders so any positive or negative feelings I have of the organization are based upon the people that I know that give that organization "a face". I like the ABS because of the people, most of them at least. From what I have seen of the guild, I'm sure its the same. I was at the guild show and talked to Gene Baskett and since he was friendly, I think of the guild as a friendly organization. Its as simple as that.

The mission of the ABS and Guild, to a greater or lesser degree, are about the same respectively. Their intention is teaching how to make knives and NOT how to sell knives. If that is true, then it's up to me to make a business out of it if I want to. In my view it would be hypocritical for either organizations to pressure me to do more than reciprocate in turn by teaching and volunteering and passing it on. To insist on more is stepping out of the mission. The fact is that I want to do more, but just how much is based on more than loyalty alone.

I have seen some really insightful comments in this thread about the business side of things, namely in Joe P's, STeven's, and a few other's comments. Very good things to think about.
 
I am really new in this game, and like Jason joined the ABS this year. I like the idea of belonging to an organization, and the JS and MS designations. I really don't have a preference for forged vs. stock removal but I know the ABS is all about forged blades. I do not know the history of the organizations, and only know the names from reading posts here on BF.

I think the key to any organization's survival is the ability to balance adaptability, to follow the generational changes attracting new members, and maintenance of traditions, to prevent alienating the existing members. I used to make custom bicycle frames as a hobby, and decided not to pursue the business side of that hobby as the number of people wanting fillet brazed or lugged steel bicycles was declining. The modern market is so heavily invested in carbon fiber bicycles, attracting new customers that aren't 40 years old or older is nearly impossible. As much as I like the traditional carbon steel blades with natural materials, there are great knives made with synthetic materials and hi tech steels. I have even made a handful of knives with those materials. I think both (all) quality makers need a place to belong, and need to be embraced. The shows may follow the trends I saw when I was breeding reptiles. The advent of internet sales changed shows from sales venues to meet and greet venues. Sales were primarily on web sites, or through online exchanges. Organizations like the ABS need to embrace the technology that current makers need to utilize to support themselves. Recognition of changing markets and marketing is really important to maintain sustainability.
 
Calvin Robinson said:
Don,
Come to the next Guild show and refresh your observations. There are plenty of tactical knives and tactical Knifemakers.
We even give awards for tactical knife categories.
Come join us!:)
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Thanks Calvin, I did the show 2 or 3 years ago and had a good time. Might get back there at some point, but I'm just not doing as many shows as I used to.
 
It was in interesting show to take in. My only real complaint was that the room seemed small. I had a little backpack and it seemed like I could not stop moving or I would bottle neck all movement around the tables.

I went up there because I want to prose a collaboration project with an ABS MS, I dont see any reason that we cant play nice.

During the conversation about the difference between the tactical and forged market, I mentioned demographics and excitement as well. I dont know what the answer is but I know what some of the problems are.

During that conversation, which was one of the show seminars, I was asked what was the difference between the TKI and the ABS expo. "other than all the people wearing black?" which got a chuckle outta the room. While I know that was said in good nature, my initial thought was we wouldnt make fun of your work at the TKI... I only say that because as soon as I outted myself as a "tactical knifemaker" I could tell some folks in there kinda got their hackles up.

People that saw me at the show, where shocked to see me there. "what are YOU doing HERE!?"

"why shouldnt I be here? I like knives." I was quite taken with Adam DesRosiers giant integral damascus piece. I hate that everything I make is automatically "tactical" no matter if I use Mammoth or G-10. I dont like to be pigeon holed as a maker, who does. I see Jerry Fisk reading this post

Its all a damn shame because the ABS membership designs some of the best fixed blades in the world, but the factories are not sending them many royalty checks.

I see Jerry Fisk reading this thread. I caught a grinding demonstration that you did at a hammer in at the ABS school when I was a member in about 1995. I think about that every time I grind a blade, and am grateful. I followed Don Fogg around like a puppy that whole weekend and he didnt get mad at my 17 year old dumbass once.

Us and them has no place with us if we want to grow. The rising tide after all....
 
The rising tide floats all boats and also drowns some folks that does not have enough sense to move when they need to. Metaphorically speaking of course.

Josh, regarding the Arkansas knife show, I do not "bite the hands that help me" I considered it to be a two way street. Who chewed who is the question.

In my opinion, It was a mistake to leave the SCI show when they did. I told the board that then, and that I would not follow and pour my money down the drain. I am not dependent upon them for my direction. If you want to go Elk hunting you gotta go where the Elk are.
The last two years out at the Reno show I attended the SCI banquets as a guest instead of the ABS banquets. While the ABS was happy over raising $2000 at their banquet, the SCI raised $10,000,000 at their banquet. I worked it so the ABS could get a booth and begin cross pollinating. The board passed on it. It was bad management then and now. The SCI had thousands of attendees that was spending millions of dollars that same weekend and they seemed to have no problem getting to their show. Everyone has their choice and direction.
As a full time maker, the Arkansas show is a better choice for me personally. I have nothing against the ABS at all, I wish them well, matter of fact I promote it, I sure promote the forged blade. This is not an ABS bashing from me, there are some really good people in the ABS and some of them trying hard to make it work well.

When that tide comes up you have to move and take the stuff important to you and re-start and watch all them other boats floating around out there. :)
 
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