ABS Expo 2014 Report

Wise words Jerry

If I may ask

Why was the decision made to walk away from being connected to such a large lucrative show ?

It's been years since I've been to the SCI show but my phone rings a lot this time of year due to friends coming in from abroad to attend and bugging me to come. They tell me its as strong as ever
 
I love Jerry Fisk....he's the guy who taught the general population of knifemakers who make forged blades that a nice clean satin finish was the way to go....before Jerry, many of the blades looked liked they had been finished on a rock.

Jerry also looks and acts like the guy who works at the gas station, when the reality is that he probably owns a chain of them.

I'll always tip my hat to Jerry Fisk, and no offense intended, but I'd do it before I tipped my hat to Bill Moran if he was still alive.;) Jerry knows how to establish a market, feed that market what they want and keep them coming back for more....himself, without anyone else doing it for him.

He will teach you how to make knives and even give you some marketing advice, but if you can't stand up on your own, he won't have too much patience for your excuses.

Bill, may he rest in peace, let everyone else build his market for him....and that right there is one of the biggest current problems with the ABS.

Same reason I love Burt Foster...he makes his own market, he makes stuff not too many people can, he is honest, hardworking and he shoots straight.

Just like Jerry, Burt benefits the ABS a lot more than he has benefited from it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I do know makers that sold thier knives as soon as they got home. The buyers are out there but I don't have the answers to get them to travel. Maybe part of it is that flying is so painful.

Or maybe this show is just at the wrong time in the wrong place.

I do too.
I agree, it's more a show issue as opposed to a traditional knife popularity issue. The Arkansas Show seems to get more popular every year.

So we know three things: (1) Plenty of folks will attend knife shows - even shows which principally feature traditional ABS-style knives (per Kevin's post above); (2) people will buy ABS smith knives (per gthouse's post above); and (3) attendance at the ABS Show In January in San Antonio is not very good. What do those three things tell you?


It seems like today promotion is a dirty word

Go tell Snody and Jerry Busse that they are doing it all wrong

The ABS needs to find ways to promote themselves better

I have not heard anyone say that promotion is a dirty word. I think many of the most successful custom / handmade makers have also been very good at promotion.

But what are folks promoting?

I am sure Jerry Busse and Mike Snody are making money hand over fist and God bless them for that. I am guessing that Victorinox and Henckels are making a ton of money, too. And to me, what they make has about as much in common with ABS forged knives as what Snody and Busse do. We already have a Swiss army knife, we already have German kitchen knives, we already have blingy so-called "tactical" knives and I really don't see why ABS makers need to go and try to compete with any of those things, any more than they need to get into the hedge fund management business and compete with hedge fund managers. Because if it is just about getting into a business where you can make as much money as possible, I think that a good hedge fund manager will make a lot more money than any knifemaker.

I am also guessing that for every hot tactical maker who is raking it in, there are probably ten other guys struggling to sell what they make. Gee, sounds like ABS makers, or Guild Members, or . . .


The answer is do not expect people to travel just for your show. Piggy back it off other events so that folks are there already.

That sounds logical.

But I am curious. Do you know how many or what percentage of the sold out TKI show attendees were already going to be there for the SHOT show?

One thing I have NEVER seen any knife show do is to survey its own attendees. Maybe they do it and no one just ever asked me. :o But in one of my many former lives I used to be in the trade show business - we ran a major LV show with tens of thousands attendees every year from all over the world. And we surveyed the hell out of them to find out why they were coming, what they liked, what they didn't like, what they wanted more of, what they wanted less of, what would make them more or less likely to come back next year . . . because it was very important to us that they DID come back next year.

Information is your best friend.


#2
Arkansas and Forged Blades
How great would the Arkansas show be if there had never been an ABS? Seems like some makers bite the hand that helped them. I admire people like Dave Lisch who do Arkansas but also attend the ABS show. And Dave had some killer knives in Texas and I'm sure he will in Arkansas.

#3
Travel to San Antonio
Some people make it sound like we are hosting this show in Two Dot, Montana. Look it up, it actually exists. I flew from Missoula, Montana to San Antonio with one stop. Hardly difficult to get to.

#4
Participation?
For any show to be great you need maker participation. Sadly so many makers love to tout their Master Smith stamp and stamp every knife they make. But they can't find a way to attend the only all forged blade show in the world. And so many makers bitch about not selling knives at a show. But rarely stop to ask what they did to make the show better. How many collectors did they bring? How many collectors names did they supply to the committee for mailings?

Loved your post. Love your passion.

But when I read the points above, it sort of made me feel like you think "the problem" with the ABS Show is not enough makers, when I think "the problem" with the ABS Show is really that there not enough attendees/collectors.


#5
The Guild
I'm one of the makers that pushed behind the scenes to combine the Guild and ABS Show. However the Guild does not want to team up with the ABS. They just want the ABS Mastersmiths at their show. They don't want Journeyman or Apprentices.

That is . . . disappointing to hear.


I have always felt that it was set a bit to close to little rock and when I talk to collectors it is clear that most cannot do both shows and they say, I will see you in little rock. It is not easy to do both shows but I do, and I think it would be great if more of the ABS members came to the ABS show even knowing it may be a slow show.

Again, to me the issue is not getting more ABS makers to the ABS Show; it is getting more attendees/collectors to the ABS Show.


Virginian
The Knife Makers Guild would love to have the ABS Master Smiths to come to Guild Show. Having both together would be great, it's all about selling knives and not what we think about each other. We can work together.
Gene Baskett President of The Knife Makers Guild

Just the ABS Master Smiths?

Why? Please forgive me, because sometimes maybe I am just too blunt.

But why have them "come to the Guild Show?" Why not have a COMBINED show on equal footing - not just a Guild show with a section for ABS MS makers?

No offense, and maybe I am just reading it wrong, but this post does not indicate to me a great interest on your organization's part to have a REAL combined custom / handmade show with the best of both worlds. So, if this is true, then IMO it is no surprise that the ABS does not want to just dump all their JS and Journeyman makers for the privilege of their MS makers being a part of "your show." Maybe the Guild feels this way because the Guild Show is doing better than the ABS Show now and so maybe the Guild feels like it doesn't really need the ABS. At least that is just the impression I am getting here. In that case . . . I guess you better hope the worm never turns, as they say. But WTH, I am just a collector like many who buys and collects knives made by Guild members, and knives made by ABS makers . . . and even some knives made by neither. But I don't go to either of your shows as it stands now. Combine them, and I'll be there with bells on, as they say, together with my meager wallet. And I bet I would have some company.


During that conversation, which was one of the show seminars, I was asked what was the difference between the TKI and the ABS expo. "other than all the people wearing black?" which got a chuckle outta the room. While I know that was said in good nature, my initial thought was we wouldnt make fun of your work at the TKI...

I guess I don't take that as anyone making fun of anyone's work or of the TKI's makers, but rather perhaps a gentle poke at the stereotype of the folks who tend to attend the TKI and similar shows. But maybe you had to be there to "get it."


as soon as I outted myself as a "tactical knifemaker" I could tell some folks in there kinda got their hackles up.

People that saw me at the show, where shocked to see me there. "what are YOU doing HERE!?" ....

Yeah, I can see how that would be real offputting and make someone feel unwelcomed. Damn shame, IMO.
 
Did the SCI leave Reno or not? I am under the impression they did not. When at Reno I sold knives to new customers that were there for SCI, but that is past history.

Obviously there is a lot of interest in the ABS by the length of this thread. This is very positive and I hope conversation continues amoung the ABS members and board.

I have donated to the SCI auction and attended after the ABS left Reno. One does tend to disappear because of the size of the show. It is a tough audience but some established makers do well there.

Nice to see open discussion.
Gary House
ABS Master Smith
 
I love Jerry Fisk....he's the guy who taught the general population of knifemakers who make forged blades that a nice clean satin finish was the way to go....before Jerry, many of the blades looked liked they had been finished on a rock.

Jerry also looks and acts like the guy who works at the gas station, when the reality is that he probably owns a chain of them.

I'll always tip my hat to Jerry Fisk, and no offense intended, but I'd do it before I tipped my hat to Bill Moran if he was still alive.;) Jerry knows how to establish a market, feed that market what they want and keep them coming back for more....himself, without anyone else doing it for him.

He will teach you how to make knives and even give you some marketing advice, but if you can't stand up on your own, he won't have too much patience for your excuses.

Bill, may he rest in peace, let everyone else build his market for him....and that right there is one of the biggest current problems with the ABS.

Same reason I love Burt Foster...he makes his own market, he makes stuff not too many people can, he is honest, hardworking and he shoots straight.

Just like Jerry, Burt benefits the ABS a lot more than he has benefited from it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Good post STeven.

I expect quite a few makers and collectors credit Jerry for helping in their success and knowledge of custom knives.
I know I telephoned him on a Saturday afternoon (must have been 10-12 years ago) and I've been learning form him every since.

Speaking of ABS bladesmiths needing to get into the Tactical knife market, Jerry has been creating and putting them in the hands of our servicemen for around 25 years.

Here's an example of one of several models he makes. It's called the Comenchero. This was made in the 1990s and has a Black Linen Micarta Handle.


Here's a dressed up and embellished version of his "Military Model" made in 2005:
Handcock-FiskPhotos002.jpg
 
Or maybe this show is just at the wrong time in the wrong place.



So we know three things: (1) Plenty of folks will attend knife shows - even shows which principally feature traditional ABS-style knives (per Kevin's post above); (2) people will buy ABS smith knives (per gthouse's post above); and (3) attendance at the ABS Show In January in San Antonio is not very good. What do those three things tell you?




I have not heard anyone say that promotion is a dirty word. I think many of the most successful custom / handmade makers have also been very good at promotion.

But what are folks promoting?

I am sure Jerry Busse and Mike Snody are making money hand over fist and God bless them for that. I am guessing that Victorinox and Henckels are making a ton of money, too. And to me, what they make has about as much in common with ABS forged knives as what Snody and Busse do. We already have a Swiss army knife, we already have German kitchen knives, we already have blingy so-called "tactical" knives and I really don't see why ABS makers need to go and try to compete with any of those things, any more than they need to get into the hedge fund management business and compete with hedge fund managers. Because if it is just about getting into a business where you can make as much money as possible, I think that a good hedge fund manager will make a lot more money than any knifemaker.

I am also guessing that for every hot tactical maker who is raking it in, there are probably ten other guys struggling to sell what they make. Gee, sounds like ABS makers, or Guild Members, or . . .




That sounds logical.

But I am curious. Do you know how many or what percentage of the sold out TKI show attendees were already going to be there for the SHOT show?

One thing I have NEVER seen any knife show do is to survey its own attendees. Maybe they do it and no one just ever asked me. :o But in one of my many former lives I used to be in the trade show business - we ran a major LV show with tens of thousands attendees every year from all over the world. And we surveyed the hell out of them to find out why they were coming, what they liked, what they didn't like, what they wanted more of, what they wanted less of, what would make them more or less likely to come back next year . . . because it was very important to us that they DID come back next year.

Information is your best friend.




Loved your post. Love your passion.

But when I read the points above, it sort of made me feel like you think "the problem" with the ABS Show is not enough makers, when I think "the problem" with the ABS Show is really that there not enough attendees/collectors.




That is . . . disappointing to hear.




Again, to me the issue is not getting more ABS makers to the ABS Show; it is getting more attendees/collectors to the ABS Show.




Just the ABS Master Smiths?

Why? Please forgive me, because sometimes maybe I am just too blunt.

But why have them "come to the Guild Show?" Why not have a COMBINED show on equal footing - not just a Guild show with a section for ABS MS makers?

No offense, and maybe I am just reading it wrong, but this post does not indicate to me a great interest on your organization's part to have a REAL combined custom / handmade show with the best of both worlds. So, if this is true, then IMO it is no surprise that the ABS does not want to just dump all their JS and Journeyman makers for the privilege of their MS makers being a part of "your show." Maybe the Guild feels this way because the Guild Show is doing better than the ABS Show now and so maybe the Guild feels like it doesn't really need the ABS. At least that is just the impression I am getting here. In that case . . . I guess you better hope the worm never turns, as they say. But WTH, I am just a collector like many who buys and collects knives made by Guild members, and knives made by ABS makers . . . and even some knives made by neither. But I don't go to either of your shows as it stands now. Combine them, and I'll be there with bells on, as they say, together with my meager wallet. And I bet I would have some company.




I guess I don't take that as anyone making fun of anyone's work or of the TKI's makers, but rather perhaps a gentle poke at the stereotype of the folks who tend to attend the TKI and similar shows. But maybe you had to be there to "get it."




Yeah, I can see how that would be real offputting and make someone feel unwelcomed. Damn shame, IMO.

Ken some really good comments

I'll address the ones to me which I apreciate the opportunity to expand upon

To your first point

No one in this thread has said that promotion is a bad thing ............ Obviously there is not enough going on for either the ABS or the guild

Many times on this forum there is snide comments when someone promotes a maker more than some would like. This is fact

Last but not least makers would not be coming to me to help promote if there was not a need for it


Next

Why should the ABS and the guild chase the hottest and fastest growing market out there ?

This question answers itself

I'm not saying guys like Fisk , Bagwell , White etc who have books filled with orders for what they do make a economy line user knife if they do not want to but they have their place in the market and do not need to chase anything but for an up and coming maker to turn his back to a growing part of the market is IMHO foolish.

What if this new growing market never sways its taste to cowboy knives. If you would attend the big tactical shows you would also see that besides a younger market that is spending big money there is plenty of older guys and maybe just maybe their taste is never going to change or as I have heard on here mature to like traditional ABS style blades

Some makers are not at the zenith of their careers and can not depend on a predominately older crowd to fill their books till they can try and retire

They must feed families and cater to a new market. So yes they need to chase what ever market that is growing

Than you have collectors like me

I've been at this for a long time even thou I am not the oldest guy in the room. My collection is mostly made up of natural handle material MS pieces

But my taste has changed

For me I do not need any more fancy knives in boxes. For me I am back where I started in custom knives and that is chasing all out performance pieces.

I like high performance user knives and from the success of the projects that I have been involved with I am not alone

Plus what ever happened to the quest of the performance forged blade. These are realized in the user grade pieces that will actually be put to task.

When the ABS gave up the cutting comps for one thing it relegated itself to making fancy paper weights. Before any one gets excited I know that a very fancy MS piece from most MS's is going to perform but in reality we will never know will we :)

I am a student of the blade and one conclusion my studies have lead me to is that in all cultures as blades became more embellished there performance characteristics decreased to the point in ancient Japan men carried wooden blades in fancy furniture. This was also seen in Europe as the blade went from a weapon to a status symbol

I am for bringing back the hard core performance attraction to the forged blade and the up and coming market dictates I am not alone

The point is that there is room and a market for both and every maker must pick his path and make what his customer base is asking for

The comment about if they just wanna make money they should just sell hedge funds. Do you know many knife makers :)

That's not gonna be their bag the same as it would not be mine.

They love and have passion for what they do and that does not mean they have to be starving artists.

The question about the participants of the TKI also being at the SHOT show is a question I am glad you asked

It illustrates my point perfectly

I would say the biggest elephants in the room of the TKI are at SHOT because they are all working with production companies and are at the different large manufactures booths at the show

They are building a brand

Repeat commision checks so that they do not have to live knife to knife their whole life

They are letting companies like Spyderco, Kershaw, etc do their marketing and introduce their names to an up and coming market

The buyers of their production designs graduate to the mid tech and full custom lines

You do not see the big companies sniffing around the ABS makers to much do you ?

Guys like Kramer have lucrative deals with the big cutlery companies but other than him and kitchen knives there is not much interest in traditional fixed blades by the big companies and that is because the interest is not there

Please do not take my addressing your comments with anything other than that this is good productive conversation about something we are all vested in

Thanks
 
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Good post STeven.

I expect quite a few makers and collectors credit Jerry for helping in their success and knowledge of custom knives.
I know I telephoned him on a Saturday afternoon (must have been 10-12 years ago) and I've been learning form him every since.

Speaking of ABS bladesmiths needing to get into the Tactical knife market, Jerry has been creating and putting them in the hands of our servicemen for around 25 years.

Here's an example of one of several models he makes. It's called the Comenchero. This was made in the 1990s and has a Black Linen Micarta Handle.


Here's a dressed up and embellished version of his "Military Model" made in 2005:
Handcock-FiskPhotos002.jpg

Beautiful stuff Kevin

Jerry please make me a Comanchero :)
 
Interesting to not see ABS members planning to attend the Canadian Knifemakers Guild show in August which Wolfe has mentioned a couple of times in BF and CKCA. Perhaps those interested would contact Wolfe as likely there is still an opportunity to attend.
 
I've enjoyed reading this thread. Over here in Ireland we don't have knife shows, the occasionally outdoor show with shotguns etc but nothing on the scale that you would have in the States.

I'm 24 so suppose I'm a bit of the younger generation of knife collectors coming through. I love traditional handforged carbon steel blades, I do not love Northern Ireland humidity and tendency to start the rusting process at short notice. I'm not a big fan of tactical but saying that I went to the Guild Show in Kentucky in September and the only knife I brought home was a bead blasted micarta bowie by LeBatard, was it because there were no forged blades there that caught my eye, no; or no big bowies, no. For me on that day it was simply a matter of what I had in my wallet.
I think you are all right what you are saying about makers diversifying their markets. It works for a few reasons

#1 I have to save like anything to afford some customs, they're not cheap and sometimes rightly so - materials, time, etc. and I'm sure any youngish person who comes along to most of the shows are in the same position. We'd love to buy all the fancy stuff but we just can't do it . . . yet. But I was really happy that I could go to the show and come home with a custom knife for a couple of hundred dollars. It's surprising how much that would endear you toward a maker. I think maybe we can have a skewed view that all custom knives are 4 figures plus and holy grails that you can't touch or use. That's why I'm happy to see some makers like Wheeler, McGee, Lynch, Lamey etc making knives that I can afford and I'm not afraid to use either.

#2 To have the impetus to get up and go to show, I don't know if young people have that. I really wanted to try and fit one show in while I was travelling and the guild show was the one that worked out for time and distance. Was I a bit nervous before going? Yea - I didn't know any of the makers there except a few by reputation. Did I enjoy it? Yea - I couldn't have said a thing about the majority of the makers I chatted with even though I didn't buy any of their knives they were more than happy to chat to me. I was made to feel very comfortable. I'd say looking out though unless you had some sort of connection you might not just decide to pop down and have a browse.
Bitta fear maybe surrounding the shows that they are just more like a museum where you can buy things? I dunno, just having few stabs at the dark. There certainly weren't an awful lot of people my age roaming about the place. Young makers would certainly attract younger people too.

#3 The internet. What kills me is just where I am. I can't get to shows, if I could I would. I do most of my dealings over the internet - contacting makers through email and even Facebook has become a really handy way to buy knives. I ended up buying 2 of Matt Lamey - one I ordered just sending him a wee message over fb and sorting something out and then the other was just one he posted up on his wall and I took a liking to it. Contactability is a really powerful thing - and ease of contact. Fb is a great way for makers to start and dip into the younger market and a bit of free advertising for not too much effort.

#4 It's just the way things go. Over here we have a saying that "Everything swings in roundabouts" Every organisations has went through these sorts of storms - we just have to weather and work hard. Work with the markets but try not to lose the identity that we have in forged blades and traditional. You want to move with the future but you don't want to cut all the ties you have with the past - that whole two eyes on the past is blind sort of thing.

I don't know if all that is relevant but I spend the majority of my time with young people and can take a right stab at how they think, though we are a few miles apart, I'd guess a lot of the same attitudes are prevalent.
 
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Joe,

That was a good reply to Ken. Liking traditional ABS style knives does not mean that other knives are not appreciated. I agree with your comment about performance pieces. Plenty of ABS makers make very high performance knives, but not all collectors are aware of it.

Jerry please make me a Comanchero

The Commenchero is my knife, I picked it up for a very reasonable price from the original owner. I have not used it yet, but have considered using it, I just rarely carry a big knife. In the last 20 years or so, Jerry Fisk has made very many knives that would be considered tactical for deployed members of the Military, as have other ABS members. Many knife collectors might not be aware of this.

Jerry even makes a Tactical folding skinner! Here is the prototype of his Fiskmuk folder in carbon steel and micarta. Jerry carried and used it daily for a year. I was lucky enough to acquire it and it is one of the knives that I carry and use.



Jim
 
Ken some really good comments

I'll address the ones to me which I apreciate the opportunity to expand upon

. . .


Please do not take my addressing your comments with anything other than that this is good productive conversation about something we are all vested in

Thanks

Thanks for your comments, Joe. And I would not take them any other way than you suggest.

I understand chasing a market. But when everyone starts trying to exit the building in the same direction . . . well, there's only room for so many through the door and we know what happens to the rest. IMO, better to create your OWN new market than to chase the same hot one that a thousand others are chasing. And at some point . . . you are no longer trying to do what you do anymore. That was sort of the point of my hedge fund comment.

As for only wanting to buy user knives . . . of course DSFDF applies here.

Personally, I do not know how many knives you own, but I think my collection is probably relatively small by "collector" standards and it is still 50-100 (and growing). If I was just all about user knives, it would be less than a half dozen, because frankly, how many knives do I really need for using (outside the kitchen)? Not many. And once I had those 4-5 knives (which of course I already do), I could cancel my subscription to Blade magazine, stop spending money attending shows, stop spending thousands of dollars a year on knives, and cancel my paid membership here. And if I didn't already have those 4-5 knives that I need for using, and needed to buy them, factory knives have become so good in the past decade or more that IMO I could satisfy all of my needs for user knives pretty well with top quality factory knives without the need to spend a lot of money for handmade items, which has become antequated in almost all other tools and instruments today anyway.

Hey . . . maybe you have the right idea after all! :thumbup:
 
The desire for exclusivity seems to be more of a Baby Boomer trait. As a Gen X, I find exclusivity quite a turn off.

The Guild wants to stand for a high standard of quality and handmade blades, which I admire. As a result, they've given ABS Mastersmiths an invitation to join the guild without going through a probationary period, etc. Why? Because a MS has met a high standard of quality. A JS has also, in my opinion, but the Guild's position makes some sense, to the Guild.

The ABS wants to stand for the forged blade, which I admire. As a result, they have a performance test in addition to fit and finish requirements, which I also admire. But they're equally exclusive. I've made just over 300 knives, and have passed one stage into Guild entry. Even if I were a Voting Member who had made 3000 knives, I would still have to wait for three years (or two with a class) before I could test for JS. This makes some sense to the ABS, but is just as insulting, in my opinion, as excluding JS from the Guild.

Exclusivity is good in some senses, in that it centers an organization around a standard. I wouldn't want the Guild lowering the fit and finish standards, nor the ABS giving up on performance testing. On the other hand, just like religion, when the exclusivity becomes a barrier or a turn off, the organizations will struggle.

Kind of like Les' observation that the TKI guys might not talk trash about the ABS... OK, whatever. The Guild doesn't recognize ABS JS. The ABS doesn't recognize the Guild at all.

Realize that as a Gen X, I am fairly critical of ALL organizations. Churches, governments, social clubs. It's in my generational makeup to think this way. It's also my generation's way to step in and try and change things, not just sit idly by.

In terms of the future, it matters less to me what direction the organizations take. Kind of like religion, you can be faithful without a group. On the other hand, there are benefits to the group that can't be had by going it alone. I am more concerned about meeting knifemakers, treating them with respect, learning everything I can from them, and teaching them everything I have to share. In the end knifemaking will rise or fall based on the relationships between knifemakers, or between collectors, or between collectors and knifemakers. It would be great if we had strong organizations to help us build those relationships. Kind of like religion, each generation may have to start its own organization, or maybe not. Time will tell.

Organizations that exclude before they include make relationships a challenge.
 
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Kind of like Les' observation that the TKI guys might not talk trash about the ABS... OK, whatever. The Guild doesn't recognize ABS JS. The ABS doesn't recognize the Guild at all.


I probably presented that thought poorly, as usual.

Make no mistake, I have heard a few Bolo Tie jokes from the people I deal with.

In general I have felt and seen a lot of disdain for stock removers from forgers over the last 20 years. I doubt it started when I did, so it probably goes back a little further. When I walked though the first ABS show in San Antonio, I dont remember what tactical knifemaker's T shirt I was wearing, but it seemed to get me some dirty looks.

I just dont know why we have to make such a big deal outta the US v THEM mentality?
 
I just dont know why we have to make such a big deal outta the US v THEM mentality?


That's part of why I joined both organizations. I want to hold myself to higher and higher standards of fit and finish, hence the Guild. I want to hold myself to higher standards of performance and to learn how to forge well, hence the ABS.

There is no "us" and "them", only "us". We make knives. The Gen X in me has a hard time with making it more complicated than that.
 
very interesting post Jason (#133)
not to get into religion, of course, but I find it very interesting that Pope Francis is so strident in his arguments against exclusivity.
There is certainly a sociological shift occurring, which will affect every facet of culture, and it will be very interesting to watch it unfold. Exciting times, imo!
 
I think you're running along the right lines with your church analogy Jason.

I'm a real outsider so it's interesting to see all this going on and see the changes and the transition period that every organisation grows through as the founding generation is starting to move on. I'd love to see both organisations grow. I loved the guild show. It was a good size with great variety of knives. There weren't an awful lot of big bowies about which was sad for me and one fella did say you'd need to get to an ABS show for them. Which tbh is a good thing. I'd rather go to two shows and see differences and be able to grab something different rather than the same stuff, different place.

Without Bladeforums I'd only probably know of 3/4 makers but thanks to this I've a real desire to get knives off about another 10+makers.
 
I just dont know why we have to make such a big deal outta the US v THEM mentality?

As a collector I say Amen to that. Honestly, most collectors I know DON'T care and don't draw such lines (I'm sure some on both sides do). I may not focus my collecting on tactical knives but I appreciate them and the skills/quality that goes into making them. What I find interesting is that the tactical makers, who already have a great market of their own and probably don't need my business, produce "gentlemen's tacticals" that appeal to me, a traditional collector. I have "crossed-over" and bought these expensive knives.
Why is then so tabu for a traditional maker to "cross-over" and make something that appeals to the tactical crowd in order to expand their market. The one thing the tactical crowd has that traditional makers could use is enthusiasm for their knives. I'm talking excitement and demand, thus the need for lotteries and auctions.
I was one of the participants in the discussion Les referred to during the ABS seminar and I mentioned it in an earlier post on page 2 or 3. He was making valuable suggestions about building such demand and at times you'd think he was suggesting everyone move over to the dark side. Admittedly, it was a small group and perhaps not representative of the larger. But that coupled with looks described in these posts, perhaps the animosity is real to some degree. The question is WHY???

Perhaps the most well known manufacturer of forged blades is RANDALL. RMK has a 5 year wait and/or high secondary mark-ups (like Les and many big time tactical makers). RMK makes both traditional outdoor hunting knives and military/tactical knives. I have a small collection of RMK Model 25 and 26's but can do without their Model 14,15,16 etc. Others only collect their military stuff and would never buy a 25 or 26. This is one company serving both markets and doing so VERY successfully.
 
Thanks for your comments, Joe. And I would not take them any other way than you suggest.

I understand chasing a market. But when everyone starts trying to exit the building in the same direction . . . well, there's only room for so many through the door and we know what happens to the rest. IMO, better to create your OWN new market than to chase the same hot one that a thousand others are chasing. And at some point . . . you are no longer trying to do what you do anymore. That was sort of the point of my hedge fund comment.

As for only wanting to buy user knives . . . of course DSFDF applies here.

Personally, I do not know how many knives you own, but I think my collection is probably relatively small by "collector" standards and it is still 50-100 (and growing). If I was just all about user knives, it would be less than a half dozen, because frankly, how many knives do I really need for using (outside the kitchen)? Not many. And once I had those 4-5 knives (which of course I already do), I could cancel my subscription to Blade magazine, stop spending money attending shows, stop spending thousands of dollars a year on knives, and cancel my paid membership here. And if I didn't already have those 4-5 knives that I need for using, and needed to buy them, factory knives have become so good in the past decade or more that IMO I could satisfy all of my needs for user knives pretty well with top quality factory knives without the need to spend a lot of money for handmade items, which has become antequated in almost all other tools and instruments today anyway.

Hey . . . maybe you have the right idea after all! :thumbup:

I think all of us are right :)

Thanks for the kind words they mean a lot

When I say I'm collecting user knives these days I should have elaborated

My love affair with the forged blade started when I was about 8 years old

There was a gas station/martial arts store in Summers Point New Jersey. In the summer we lived at the shore and I worked on my old mans fishing Marina

Well one day we drove thru Summers Point and stopped at the weird martial arts store

There high up on a shelf ( probable not so high because I was so scrawny :) ) there sat a Daisho which many know as a Katana and a Wakisashi

Every time we would go there I would beg my mother to please get them for me ....... Eventually she gave in and I was the proud owner of something that would change my life and get me a lot of bad Tatoos :)

I immediately started to read everything I could find on Japanese Swords. This of course was way before the Internet so lotsa bike rides to the library.

I soon learned that my beloved swords were not hand forged but cheap stainless with a fake frosted temper line. Who's says knowledge is king :)

Well either way I cherished them and treated them with the reverence that a blade by Massamune would deserve :)

The one thing that did leave an indelible impression on this 8 year old little boy was the reverence and wonder and yes even magic that went into a forged differently heat treated blade

Learning at such a young age about the world of high performance forged blades kind of jaded me against all others and started a quest that is still as insatiable today as it was to that dumb little kid who couldn't even reach the fake samurai swords :)

So the love of the forged blade is deep in me and on me

Please understand I'm not saying that ABS makers should start putting skulls on their Bowies or at least not on every single one :) but I would love to see the performance characteristics of a properly forged blade that exhibits radical distal taper and differential heat treatment exhaled more.

I do not care if the heat treat is accomplished thru eastern type methods (clay tempering) or European (draw back) or any other method Nick Wheeler can devise :)

I would just like see the performance aspects of the blades concentrated on and that is what the projects that I am involved in stress

Don't get me wrong I love gorgeous display pieces and there is plenty of room for both and I also know that they can exhibit the same types of performance that plain user blades have as long as both show the same characteristics as in distal taper and edge geometry, heat treat , etc

These blades do not even, and I hope they are not marketed as tactical blades because if the stress is on high performance the tactical part of the market will seek them out and buy them anyway

So the makers will be hitting both markets the high performance user and the tactical market with one stone

Win win

I can not stress the amount of pieces that I have picked up at shows that were gorgeous but they felt like boat anchors

There really is a difference a few grams make here and there

In the Knight Combat knife video many commented on my blade handling

I am not practiced up in the least and I literally just got that knife and it felt and handled so well because it is that well balanced and works so well in the hand

Half gram heavy on the back end :)

[video=youtube_share;71UpLRsQDsc]http://youtu.be/71UpLRsQDsc[/video]

Only kidding but I could not resist :)

On another note I want to thank everyone for the PMs and messages. You are all way to kind

I'm still that little kid in awe of the forged blade :)
 
Ken with all my rambling I almost forgot my point :)

As some collectors are always looking for the perfect Damascus pattern or piece of ivory I am looking for the perfect high performance user so I will never get sick of searching :)

Their is so much room for both it thrills me

Back out to plow snow Ugh
 
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