Another Paypal Discussion

Ahhhh. The thread that wouldn't die. As a seller I only have two hard and fast rules: (1) My offering price is the amount of money I have to have in my pocket when the deal is over and (2) you have to be at least 18 years old to purchase from me. Everything else is negotiable. If you want to know more, PM or e-mail me and we'll discuss it.

Does it really need to get any more complicated than that? And is there any fairer arrangement that could be made when it comes to giving the buyer an opportunity to participate in negotiating the details of the transaction? I mean, if you want me to dictate terms, let me know and I'll do that. Otherwise, you tell me how you'd like to handle the shipping, payment, fees and so forth. If we can come to terms, we have deal. If not, no harm no foul.
 
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HH

How did you pay for your item? Did you send a personal payment or receive a request from the seller to which you in turn clicked "pay now". I see nothing that states only EBAY purchases are covered under the SNAD claim. Signing for a package does not negate the "sent the wrong item" claim. I don't know who told you that but it is incorrect.

Paypal is very thorough in their Purchase Protection eligibility requirements. There are as many ways to cover your butt as there are to expose it to the elements. I am not asking you to discuss your business transactions publicly but without a few specific details(type of item purchased, type of payment method, description of item, description of what your received) it is impossible to make a call.
 
bld522 said:
Ahhhh. The thread that wouldn't die. As a seller I only have two hard and fast rules: (1) My offering price is the amount of money I have to have in my pocket when the deal is over and (2) you have to be at least 18 years old to purchase from me. Everything else is negotiable. If you want to know more, PM or e-mail me and we'll discuss it.

Does it really need to get any more complicated than that? And is there any fairer arrangement that could be made when it comes to giving the buyer an opportunity to participate in negotiating the details of the transaction? I mean, if you want me to dictate terms, let me know and I'll do that. Otherwise, you tell me how you'd like to handle the shipping, payment, fees and so forth. If we can come to terms, we have deal. If not, no harm no foul.
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Um, that seems a lot more complicated than an all inclusive you pay X amount agreement. My offering price is the price you pay. Now that is not complicated...
 
craytab said:
Um, that seems a lot more complicated than an all inclusive you pay X amount agreement. My offering price is the price you pay. Now that is not complicated...
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It may not be complicated, but it may not lead to the best deal the buyer could have crafted if I had offered him an opportunity to do that. The question remains. Do you want to be told or do you want to have the opportunity to negotiate? I can play it either way.
 
bld522 said:
It may not be complicated, but it may not lead to the best deal the buyer could have crafted if I had offered him an opportunity to do that. The question remains. Do you want to be told or do you want to have the opportunity to negotiate? I can play it either way.
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I never said there were no negotiations. People make offers all the time and sometimes I except them or not or counter offer. What is never negotiable is how they want to pay (paypal goods only) or how it is shipped (since when using paypal goods I the seller am responsible for the item until it gets there). With those two things completely covered, the only complication is the price. Not trying to be nit picky here but your model leaves several things to negotiate which in my book equals complication. To each their own I guess....
 
Rick Marchand said:
HH

How did you pay for your item? Did you send a personal payment or receive a request from the seller to which you in turn clicked "pay now". I see nothing that states only EBAY purchases are covered under the SNAD claim. Signing for a package does not negate the "sent the wrong item" claim. I don't know who told you that but it is incorrect.

Paypal is very thorough in their Purchase Protection eligibility requirements. There are as many ways to cover your butt as there are to expose it to the elements. I am not asking you to discuss your business transactions publicly but without a few specific details(type of item purchased, type of payment method, description of item, description of what your received) it is impossible to make a call.
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SNAD falls under the 'Purchase Protection'.
You don't have to buy from eBay, but it looks like you do have to buy from a website that has PayPal incorporated into it's 'checkout flow'. Making a direct payment to someone here on the exchange seems to make whatever you purchase an 'Ineligible Item'. The letter of the rules also seem to suggest custom made knives would not be eligible either regardless of whether they are purchased on eBay or not.


Here is the complete eligibility requirements for coverage (relevant passages in red):


13.2 Eligibility Requirements.

To be eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection you must meet all of the following requirements:

Pay for the eligible item from your Account.

Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items purchased with multiple payments – like a deposit followed by a final payment – are not eligible.

Send the payment to the Seller through:

the eBay “Pay Now” button or the eBay invoice; or

the “Send Money” button of your Account by selecting “eBay Item” and entering your eBay User ID and the eBay item number for purchases on eBay website; or

the Send Money tab on the PayPal website, by clicking the “Purchase” tab, or by selecting the “Checkout with PayPal” button or otherwise selecting PayPal as part of a Seller’s checkout flow.

Open a Dispute within 45 Days of the date you sent the payment, then follow the online dispute resolution process described below under Dispute Resolution. For Pay After Delivery transactions you must open your Dispute within 45 Days of the date of your transaction.

Have an Account in good standing.

For items purchased on eBay look for either a PayPal or eBay purchase or buyer protection message in the eBay listing. If you see a message and you meet the eligibility requirements, then your purchase is covered by PayPal Purchase Protection. The purchase or buyer protection message will vary based on the eBay website. The message must appear on the top part of the listing and not under the “Description” or “Shipping and Payments” tabs. If the listing does not include the purchase or buyer protection message, then it is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.

13.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Purchase Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

Intangible items, including Digital Goods
Services
Real estate, including residential property
Businesses
Vehicles, including motor vehicles, motorcycles, caravans, aircraft and boats
Custom-made items
Travel tickets, including airline flight tickets
Items prohibited by the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy
Items which you collect in person or arrange to be collected on your behalf, including items bought through In-Store Checkout at the retail point of sale
Items that violate eBay’s Prohibited or Restricted Items Policy
Industrial machinery used in manufacturing
Items equivalent to cash, including prepaid or gift cards
PayPal Direct Payments
Virtual Terminal Payments
Personal Payments

Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection, you can file a Dispute and try to resolve the issue directly with the Seller; however, PayPal will generally not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim for an item which is not eligible for PayPal Purchase Protection.
 
craytab said:
I never said there were no negotiations. People make offers all the time and sometimes I except them or not or counter offer. What is never negotiable is how they want to pay (paypal goods only) or how it is shipped (since when using paypal goods I the seller am responsible for the item until it gets there). With those two things completely covered, the only complication is the price. Not trying to be nit picky here but your model leaves several things to negotiate which in my book equals complication. To each their own I guess....
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True that! :)
 
Quote Originally Posted by RevDevil View Post

The only thing that needs to happen is having some time set aside to research whom you are trading items with, or simply cough up the money to outright buy the item you want or are interested in. If people didn't use the Paypal Gift option to buy knives for example, this entire section would be half as deep as it is now. Unfortunately, people fall for BS stories and let themselves get taken by that "warm and squishy" feeling, and they simply throw all caution to the wind. Also, asking for "Net to me" is just BS, do your own math for crying out loud, is it that hard? I have less sympathy for people that cannot add their fees into their asking price and force those fees on others.

+1 Coming from BladeForum's own Super Moderator, this speaks volumes!
 
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Esav Benyamin said:
If you are going to ignore ads asking for gift or fees, you will have a much greater impact if you tell them why you passed over their sale. The more who do so, the more impact. Just not buying could mean you didn't like the knife.

If you do like the knife and the price, but won't support a scam payment request, tell them. Don't tell them in the ad, that's interfering. Send them a Visitor Message, so everyone else can see you sent it too. That's feedback!
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FWIW I did exactly that on a "gift or plus 3.5%" and my Visitor Message disappeared. I suppose the rules have changed in the last year and a half. I don't like thieves and I'm not going to steal their fees from Paypal. No one asked me but I think it speaks poorly of the ownership of BF that they don't actively discourage or prohibit such sales tactics.
 
Gatogordo said:
FWIW I did exactly that on a "gift or plus 3.5%" and my Visitor Message disappeared. I suppose the rules have changed in the last year and a half. I don't like thieves and I'm not going to steal their fees from Paypal. No one asked me but I think it speaks poorly of the ownership of BF that they don't actively discourage or prohibit such sales tactics.
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The Mods and the owner of BF are not here to baby sit us from our own stupidity....

FS adds are left to the discretion of the seller (there are some rules to follow, however those affect the site and it's ability to keep things fair.

Next we'll be asking for the mods to verify if a particular knife seems LNIB like a seller states!!

Be smart, an add shouldn't be able to steal your money unless you let it.....
 
JR88FAN said:
The Mods and the owner of BF are not here to baby sit us from our own stupidity....

FS adds are left to the discretion of the seller (there are some rules to follow, however those affect the site and it's ability to keep things fair.

Next we'll be asking for the mods to verify if a particular knife seems LNIB like a seller states!!

Be smart, an add shouldn't be able to steal your money unless you let it.....
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True... The Mods already have enough baby sitting to do here...
 
Gatogordo said:
FWIW I did exactly that on a "gift or plus 3.5%" and my Visitor Message disappeared. I suppose the rules have changed in the last year and a half. I don't like thieves and I'm not going to steal their fees from Paypal. No one asked me but I think it speaks poorly of the ownership of BF that they don't actively discourage or prohibit such sales tactics.
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It is actively discouraged. Says it right in the rules of the Exchange. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98

Whenever threads of this topic pop up it is not uncommon for mods to join in speaking against using the GIFT option. Also, if you look further in this section at all you will see a lot of the problems are either poor communication or from using GIFT.

It's like smoking. The potential dangers are well known and if you either do not want to educate yourself on the services you use or straight up ignore the countless testimonies of the problems that could incur, well then that is on you.
 
It is "actively discourage" (sort of) for buyers. It is not discouraged at all for sellers to ask for paypal using the "gift option".

At any rate, so where did my visitor message, as encouraged by EB above, saying I wouldn't buy his knife because of his selling practices go and why?
 
Whenever these threads pop up it is always posters speaking against the GIFT option. I don't believe I have seen one post of someone either defending or explaining their reasons for requesting GIFT rather than GOODS.

I personally don't mind if they put it there anymore because it serves as a big bold sign for me to hit the back button. If I really wanted the item I would send an offer for their asking price sent via GOODS. Haven't done that yet but they would either accept it or we would move on.


The user probably deleted the Visitor's Message.

Edit to add: Did the Visitor's Message completely disappear from their page or is it still there with the content deleted?
 
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I agree with what others have said.

You VM was deleted by the owner of the profile you posted it on. No big deal or conspiracy.

The Mods do actively discourage use of gift for all users. Spend some time in the GB&U and you will see that. The Mods already have way too much on their plate with us idiots running around. If they had to enforce paypal rules they would be doing paypal's job for free. They already have a hard enough job that they do well for free!
 
If you think Paypal does not enforce their user agreement, think again. The fees are the responsibility of the seller. They cannot be passed on to the buyer(in most situations)... especially by publicly advertising the infraction. I personally know two people who have had warnings issued from PP and one friend who had their account suspended.

If you are bumping up your selling price to cover the cost of fees, keep it to yourself. Always send an invoice/request to the buyer to be sure there is no mix up. Accepting a wrongly categorized "gift" payment is no different than sending a request for one.

ALWAYS ship with a "signature required" service. A "delivered" status on your courier's tracking page won't cut it.
 
Rick Marchand said:
ALWAYS ship with a "signature required" service. A "delivered" status on your courier's tracking page won't cut it.
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Wise words but not always the be all end all in a dispute. I lost $1,100.00 on a deal where the buyer disputed what they received and signed for(coins), even e-mailed me an offer to split the difference (which I refused thinking that PP would see that and know that they received the correct item, I forwarded them the message), but they still found for the buyer. Who would offer to pay $550 for something they did not receive (said they got a box with just addl packaging and no value)? Paypal almost always goes with the buyer and I got hosed :upset:
 
coinbuysell said:
Wise words but not always the be all end all in a dispute. I lost $1,100.00 on a deal where the buyer disputed what they received and signed for(coins), even e-mailed me an offer to split the difference (which I refused thinking that PP would see that and know that they received the correct item, I forwarded them the message), but they still found for the buyer. Who would offer to pay $550 for something they did not receive (said they got a box with just addl packaging and no value)? Paypal almost always goes with the buyer and I got hosed :upset:
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- They sign for the delivery, then file a dispute claiming there were no coins in the package(fair enough if that were the case)
- Send an email to you, offering to split the cost.... and you refuse thinking they were lying and this was proof of it.
- Paypal rules for them and you are out $1100.

I feel there is something missing here... Was the box tampered with or damaged? If so, then your claim should have been with the courier. Did you insure for the full amount? Did you speak to Paypal, directly? How many times have you appealed their decision? I'm sorry but that just does not compute. There has to be more to it.

My checklist...
-Don't use the gift option.
-Full description of goods in PP request
-Ship with signature confirmation
-Ship insured
-Track and input status in PP details

If it indeed was tampered with or damaged in transit, there are other routes to take. When the buyer contacted you offering to pay for half, did you respond with hostility, as if they were lying or tell them to hold off until you found out what happened? The scam could appear to be on either side at that point, frankly If you showed no willingness in working with the buyer to get to the bottom of it, I could see Paypal deciding the way they did. Did you ask for any pics of the box?
-
 
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To add to my response....

I had a blade and fire making kit not arrive to a customer in Germany. He claimed that he did not receive them and I had my suspicions that they were trying to pull a fast one. I could not get signature service for my package. I spoke to the customer and they were not willing to wait for me to figure out what happened so I advised them to file a dispute with Paypal. Paypal contacted me and I told them I would make every effort to get to the bottom of it. THEY gave me 4 weeks grace period to do my own investigating. Two and a half weeks later I was able to track it down through my postal service. Apparently, it was confiscated as an "obscene weapon" by German Customs. I immediately informed Paypal and told them I would issue a refund, myself and did... along with a note to my customer as to what happened.

I did try to file a claim with the post but that went nowhere quick. It was my responsibility to know the prohibited items in the country I'm shipping to. I still think it was BS that a 5 inch drop point hunter would be considered "obscene" and that there was no mention of the fire kit's fate.... gah.

Anyway, point is... Paypal was more than reasonable where they could have simply ruled with the buyer right out of the gates. I spoke to real people who were sensitive to my situation.
 
Calm and rational business dealings won't win you any interweb fightin and arguin points Mr. Marchand...
 
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