Another Paypal Discussion

Rick Marchand said:
Considering that I just pointed out that publicly charging for Paypal Fees is in breech of the user agreement and subject to PP membership termination... I would rather not see it at all and have folks incorporate it into the selling price(behind the scenes) if they so chose.
Click to expand...

That would be ideal but no one polices the forums or enforces PP policies here. You'd think PP would do something considering how openly people violate their TOS on this site.
 
Fanglekai said:
That would be ideal but no one polices the forums or enforces PP policies here. You'd think PP would do something considering how openly people violate their TOS on this site.
Click to expand...
I KNOW they would do something because I KNOW several people who have ran into trouble charging for fees. If I have friends and colleagues who have had it happen... it happens, enough to take it seriously. All it takes is one buyer claim follow up to alert them of user agreement breech. They may not actively police forums but they DO investigate claims. I don't see the sense in intentionally putting yourself at risk, when you could incorporate it into your selling price. Customers would rather see ONE price, shipped, instead of added costs... let alone having to do math! Lol. I give ONE price, shipped anywhere in NA with a stipulation that shipping charges may change with international orders. This might not make sense to someone who sells a few times a year... but for someone with a business, you can't afford to take unnecessary risks.
 
Fanglekai said:
That would be ideal but no one polices the forums or enforces PP policies here. You'd think PP would do something considering how openly people violate their TOS on this site.
Click to expand...

Why should PayPal police this site? That isn't their job...but if somebody makes a complaint against a seller that insists on "gift or + 3.5%", it's likely to be pursued. (I say likely because it depends on the circumstances. They might not address the statement in an ad, regardless of how blatantly it violates the user agreement...but, if they reiterate that to a customer that is attempting purchase, or deny a sale because the customer doesn't comply, it does get addressed.
As a rule, I simply close an ad that includes those stipulation; but, on a couple of occasions, I have contacted the sellers with a message expressing my interest in the item...and that the gift or 3.5% requirement is a deal killer for me. I add that should they change their minds about that issue, I will be happy to purchase. I've had both positive and negative responses.

Oh, on the matter of policing the ads - the site has opted to lay the responsibility on the buyer to use PayPal according to the user agreement.
"Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised."
 
If the buyer is sending the funds without a request from the seller... then, yes... they have the responsibility. In my opinion, the seller should be the one who initiates the transaction. That way, everything is traceable should a conflict arise.

Paypal protects the buyer first and foremost. It is up to the seller to cover their butt by following the user agreement.
 
Anyone mention that the fees are actually 2.9% (unless they went up and I didn't notice) yet the sellers asking for a percentage above the asking price of the item is usually 3.5% or higher? So they make a little profit on the fee as well?
What's next? I paid $.012 for the envelope to mail it and $0.02 for the ink to write the address, and another $0.02 for the tape to seal it up properly. SO, I'm out another $0.16 so I should sell my $400.00 knife for $400.00 +3.5% to 4.5% for fees and $0.25 for materials?

My initial thought on the gift issue is this.
1. Why do they really want you to use gift? Smacks of mistrust and potential fraud. No recourse for the buyer. Eleventeen hundred cases here on BF of buyers getting scammed that way.
2. It's a convenience provided by PayPal. I don't know if it's illegal, immoral, unethical, or all of the above. Paypal could easily charge the fee for everything. You pay the fee to them to be protected.
3. I'm a stand up guy and want you to trust me. I'll take care of the fees so you know when you do business with me, you are protected until I EARN your trust. That's just SMART if you're the buyer.
 
Rick, I agree with you. My PP is set up as a business account, so I don't even think people can just send me money directly. Everything I sell, whether it's on here, or a direct order from Facebook or my webpage, I send an Invoice. I'm like you as well....it's so much easier to just give one price for everything. People aren't stupid anymore about buying online. Back in the day, advertising a lower price, then tacking on S&H fees might trick some people...but everyone shops for the TOTAL price now...not just the purchase price.
 
My problem has never been due to shipping but things like a person overclocking a video card and frying it as soon as they got it then claiming it was DOA or the like.
 
neffarious said:
My problem has never been due to shipping but things like a person overclocking a video card and frying it as soon as they got it then claiming it was DOA or the like.
Click to expand...
How would that differ if the buyer had paid with a CC or cheques? They could just as well stop payment with those. Are there any tamper-proof steps you can take to prove it was the customer's misuse? I mean, it seems pretty easy to scam somebody if all you have to do is claim it was not working when you received it... how could Paypal or any other payment method have anything in place to protect you from that?
 
^This exactly^ I also like the whole contacting a seller to show interest but telling them that the "+3.5% or gift" is killing the deal. If you don't like the terms, try to work something out or just move on to the next one.
 
Last edited:
neffarious said:
You can't cover you butt as a seller with paypal.
Click to expand...

I'll agree that their seller protections aren't the best. To start with, let's be realistic...PayPal is incredibly eBay-centric. If it isn't an eBay transaction, buyers and sellers both lose the bulk of PayPal's interest in protections or customer service; but the buyer's get the better end of things. What you can do as a seller is follow the user agreement to the letter. Ship only to verified addresses, require signature confirmation, etc. Further, all communications between buyer and seller should be written; so they can readily be offered as proof. There's not much one can do about the situation you described - even a no guarantee on electronics statement, or time sensitive status requirement (it works!), would likely not remedy that...though, I have to admit I've gotten screwed by PayPal more as a buyer than as a seller.
 
I am always interested in folk's "I got screwed by paypal" threads. I have yet to see one that wasn't the fault of the seller's negligence or ignorance of the user agreement. That was not meant to be insulting. Not everybody reads the fine print and it doesn't mean you are stupid... just caught unaware. I have been using Paypal to buy and sell since 2001 and have never been "screwed". I have made mistakes and have been a victim of scams but it was either something I could have prevented with a little due diligence or completely out of my and Paypal's hands... Lessons learned and precautions taken.
 
I agree Rick. This topic has been covered endlessly, but every time I look at a listing and the sellers does the separate " Add xx% for fees", it actually ticks me off. Once I see that, I move on to the next knife I'm interested in...

I guess it does breech PP policies, but IMHO it shows laziness among other qualities. Take the time to figure out the fees, and add them into the price if the extra $5 or whatever is really going to break the bank, and nobody is the wiser. Including myself... YMMV

Nobody wants to lose money when they sell a knife, but it's part of the hobby, if you aren't going to keep things. My personal opinion has always been, if you really can't afford to lose 2-10 dollars, perhaps you shouldn't be buying and selling knives.
 
You know what I find upsetting? After reading many posts by a member and coming to respect them, finding a for sale thread where they ask for paypal gift....
 
I always include extra on any paypal payment to account for the fees the seller has to pay-- I do not see why a seller should be punished for passing that cost on to you? I mean is that not what a merchant does? if you want the good price, make it yourself.--but yeah they should not just say "pay my fees" they should just do the math and factor it into the offering price without saying : you will be paying my fees.
 
Gehazi said:
I do not see why a seller should be punished for passing that cost on to you? I mean is that not what a merchant does?
Click to expand...
It is not a punishment. It is how PP gets paid for the service they offer. Paypal is a "free" service for buyers. It was created for the buyer. Buyers don't make money on purchases. Sellers make money when they sell. If you go to a local farmers market or craft show, the patrons are the ones bringing in the money and the vendors pay a fee for a table to sell their goods. If all the vendors at one market decided to display a separate charge for "Table Fees" the public would show resentment toward the vendor AND the marketplace, itself. Grocery stores don't advertise rent, business permit or utility fees... don't kid yourself... they are in there. But it would be business suicide to separate them on the bill.
 
Last edited:
Like Mark said, nobody is getting punished. In fact the opposite. The fee is there to pay for the protection involved in a business transaction. It mostly protects the buyer. When I sell things, I include paypal fees and shipping in my price. I do not offer a gift option as it is not honest and should be a red flag to a possible problem down the road.

And just to add to what I posted earlier, It is sad to see when a well respected member tarnishes that reputation by selling items with the gift option.
 
Rick Marchand said:
I am always interested in folk's "I got screwed by paypal" threads. I have yet to see one that wasn't the fault of the seller's negligence or ignorance of the user agreement. That was not meant to be insulting. Not everybody reads the fine print and it doesn't mean you are stupid... just caught unaware. I have been using Paypal to buy and sell since 2001 and have never been "screwed".
Click to expand...
Since I was the most recent person to make that statement, I'll admit that there was a component of seller negligence (or ignorance, or idea to scam). I've received items that either were not what I ordered, or were significantly not as described. The seller refused to accept a return. I was able to provide evidence of the discrepancies or problems, as well as copies of the ads and our entire communication stream. In each case, PayPal decided in favor of the seller for various reasons: That purchase doesn't qualify for buyer protection because it was not an eBay transaction; There is no "not as described" claim outside of eBay transactions; The seller provided a valid tracking number, and your signature on receipt; etc. Note that the last one disregarded that I was sent the wrong item, and that there was a signficant cost difference between what was ordered and what was received. There was no way for me to know that prior to accepting delivery of the package.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top