Are there any "super steels" that will hold an edge twice as long as regular steel?

Apophis said:
Thanks for the reply, but I still don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Put another way, if I say that in general: "geometry, hardening, edge angle, and grit finish are at least as important as the specific alloy used for a given purpose."

Your response would be: "not unless you are Phil Wilson." ?

Totally fine if that is your stance, but it doesn't provide much of a rationale. Just trying to clarify.

Just had a lightbulb. Do you mean that if all that other stuff isn't optimal, then the alloy used becomes more important? That would be an interesting position, since I would figure the opposite. i.e., that unless all that other stuff is right where it should be, then you're not really going to see the additonal benefits that the steel could offer.
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There really isn't anything the isn't important. ;)

Everything matters, now how much will vary depending on the variables.

That's really all I am trying to really get at here in the end, that and there aren't any 100% correct answers that are correct across the board.
 
RX-79G said:
Not sure what you're getting at. Some steels won't take a super acute edge, but if we're talking about the same 30 degree inclusive edge angle, what else besides the hardness and alloy can matter, assuming they were both correctly (or optimally) heat treated?
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Ah no, I have taken some down to 10 DPS without much of an issue.

Edge finish matters, so does the media being cut, thickness behind the edge (Geometry)

Try whittling wood with a straight razor, or cutting zip ties, there is a limit to everything. ;)
 
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Ankerson said:
Ah no, I have taken some down to 10 DPS without much of an issue.

Edge finish matters, so does the media being cut, thickness behind the edge (Geometry)

Try whittling wood with a straight razor, or cutting zip ties, there is a limit to everything. ;)
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That's not what we're talking about. The thread is about how long different steels remain sharp. How does this relate?
 
RX-79G said:
That's not what we're talking about. The thread is about how long different steels remain sharp. How does this relate?
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I think one of the big things that often gets overlooked, and that Jim alludes to, is the huge influence that edge finish can have. Keep in mind that I am not an expert, just always trying to learn, but here is my understanding at a high level.

Very generally, the coarser the grit used to sharpen, the better edge retention you will see on a slice. In essense, the coarse finish almost creates micro serrations that give the blade more "bite." Many people including Wilson will say that they like a "toothy" or coarse edge on high carbide steels. I believe to some extent they enhance this effect because the carbide volume prevents the edge from wearing smooth, (the steel fractures around the carbides and there is carbide tear-out,) so there is almost a self-sharpening effect as the edge wears.

On the other end of the spectrum, a very fine, highly polished, finish will create better edge retention on push cuts, such as what you might see used on planes or woodworking chisels.

I think this is very interesting as it suggests that depending on what it being cut, one could easily see 2x edge retention, maybe much more, on the same steel just by adjusting the finish, let alone other factors such as the edge angle or thickness behind the edge, hardness, etc. It's all about optimizing the knife and edge for the intended task.

Now, in the real world I still struggle to see big differences like the above in regular use. Mainly because as I have become better at sharpening, I prefer to keep my knives at higher and higher levels of sharpness and touch them up long before I would see the benefits of that long lasting coarse edge. This gets into another discussion, but blunting is non-linear, so that intial very high sharpness degrades fairly quickly before entering a long "working edge" plateau at a low but still usable level of sharpness.
 
RX-79G said:
That's not what we're talking about. The thread is about how long different steels remain sharp. How does this relate?
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Sure it is, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT THIS UP HERE.....

RX-79G said:
Not sure what you're getting at. Some steels won't take a super acute edge, but if we're talking about the same 30 degree inclusive edge angle, what else besides the hardness and alloy can matter, assuming they were both correctly (or optimally) heat treated?
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So I addressed that one... With the straight razor example to show the other extreme. ;)
 
Apophis said:
I think one of the big things that often gets overlooked, and that Jim alludes to, is the huge influence that edge finish can have. Keep in mind that I am not an expert, just always trying to learn, but here is my understanding at a high level.

Very generally, the coarser the grit used to sharpen, the better edge retention you will see on a slice. In essense, the coarse finish almost creates micro serrations that give the blade more "bite." Many people including Wilson will say that they like a "toothy" or coarse edge on high carbide steels. I believe to some extent they enhance this effect because the carbide volume prevents the edge from wearing smooth, (the steel fractures around the carbides and there is carbide tear-out,) so there is almost a self-sharpening effect as the edge wears.

On the other end of the spectrum, a very fine, highly polished, finish will create better edge retention on push cuts, such as what you might see used on planes or woodworking chisels.

I think this is very interesting as it suggests that depending on what it being cut, one could easily see 2x edge retention, maybe much more, on the same steel just by adjusting the finish, let alone other factors such as the edge angle or thickness behind the edge, hardness, etc. It's all about optimizing the knife and edge for the intended task.

Now, in the real world I still struggle to see big differences like the above in regular use. Mainly because as I have become better at sharpening, I prefer to keep my knives at higher and higher levels of sharpness and touch them up long before I would see the benefits of that long lasting coarse edge. This gets into another discussion, but blunting is non-linear, so that intial very high sharpness degrades fairly quickly before entering a long "working edge" plateau at a low but still usable level of sharpness.
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That's something I have been telling people FOR FREAKING EVER...

Even some people's hero that's now saying the same thing and making it sound like it was his idea. :rolleyes:

I did one hell of a lot of testing over the years to find what I call the optimal edge finish for cutting (Slicing), a good all around edge finish, the one I use in my coarse edge testing for example.

Right in the 320 to 400 grit range is the sweet spot.
 
Ankerson said:
Sure it is, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT THIS UP HERE.....



So I addressed that one... With the straight razor example to show the other extreme. ;)
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Yup, I brought it up so it wouldn't distract from the actual topic.

If we are talking about the kind of knife that could be made in many different kinds of steels, and we make two identical knives of that type to compare the the edge retention, you aren't going to make them with two completely different geometries. That doesn't make any sense.


As I stated and you quote, there are certainly some things you need a super steel to get away with - like hyper acute edges. But that isn't the only reason to use those steels, and if you are trying to compare them, using two different geometries isn't informative - it's a distraction.

The OTHER reason to use a super steel (besides a really acute edge) is to get a tougher, more wear resistant edge at the same level of sharpness of a more lowly steel. And unless that's what we're talking about, there really isn't anything to discuss about this topic.


Please don't say you can't or shouldn't make the same geometry out of A2 and 3V. It is done all the time and with good reason.
 
RX-79G said:
Yup, I brought it up so it wouldn't distract from the actual topic.

If we are talking about the kind of knife that could be made in many different kinds of steels, and we make two identical knives of that type to compare the the edge retention, you aren't going to make them with two completely different geometries. That doesn't make any sense.


As I stated and you quote, there are certainly some things you need a super steel to get away with - like hyper acute edges. But that isn't the only reason to use those steels, and if you are trying to compare them, using two different geometries isn't informative - it's a distraction.

The OTHER reason to use a super steel (besides a really acute edge) is to get a tougher, more wear resistant edge at the same level of sharpness of a more lowly steel. And unless that's what we're talking about, there really isn't anything to discuss about this topic.


Please don't say you can't or shouldn't make the same geometry out of A2 and 3V. It is done all the time and with good reason.
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I like A2 personally, that stuff can be incredible with the right HT process, I would actually use it over 3V for the knuckle draggers, but that's me. ;)

Well until they actually learned how to use a knife anyway, then I would thin it out some in progression as they learned and maybe move to other steels as they progressed.
 
Ankerson said:
I like A2 personally, that stuff can be incredible with the right HT process, I would actually use it over 3V for the knuckle draggers, but that's me. ;)

Well until they actually learned how to use a knife anyway, then I would thin it out some in progression as they learned and maybe move to other steels as they progressed.
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You don't really ever talk about the topic, do you?;)

Which is fine, except you always post as if you disagree, when you're really just editorializing about something kinda, sorta related.;)
 
RX-79G said:
You don't really ever talk about the topic, do you?;)

Which is fine, except you always post as if you disagree, when you're really just editorializing about something kinda, sorta related.;)
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I talk about it all the time to people (Knife Makers). ;)

It's one of my main subjects actually.
 
RX-79G said:
Is this a riddle?


What are you getting at? The thread is about the longevity of cutting edges between different steels. What is your real question?
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Your initial ask: "Say you're going to be on site and busy for a whole day cutting stuff. Will the $200 3V knife out perform two A2 knives, or even two C100 Moras?" What stuff are we cutting in this mental excersise of futility? Or are you just trying to make a correlation between the cost of steels and their performance? Your post is pretty vague.
 
B34NS said:
Your initial ask: "Say you're going to be on site and busy for a whole day cutting stuff. Will the $200 3V knife out perform two A2 knives, or even two C100 Moras?" What stuff are we cutting in this mental excersise of futility? Or are you just trying to make a correlation between the cost of steels and their performance? Your post is pretty vague.
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In pry bars they most likely wouldn't notice the difference, it wouldn't matter much what steel they used because the geometry would be so thick and the type of use they see it would be irrelevant.

In thin ground slicers yes most likely.

But then that's apples and oranges, opposite ends of the spectrum as a general example.
 
RX-79G said:
Just not in this thread?;)
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Mostly not all that much on the internet at all, usually on the phone.

Although I do try and gently nudge in the right direction from time to time if I believe it's called for. ;)
 
Ankerson said:
In pry bars they most likely wouldn't notice the difference, it wouldn't matter much what steel they used because the geometry would be so thick and the type of use they see it would be irrelevant.

In thin ground slicers yes most likely.

But then that's apples and oranges, opposite ends of the spectrum as a general example.
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Yea totally, I was trying to figure out from RX if he's trying to figure out wear resistance or edge stability.
 
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