Are there any "super steels" that will hold an edge twice as long as regular steel?

[trevitrace]

What is cutting?

Separating something essentially, I suppose.
I ask "what is unacceptable" because you seem to have a penchant/hard-on for defining everything or peoples' definition of particular things. So I guess I'm just curious what level of sharp you view as "acceptable".

 

[Ankerson]

Yea totally, I was trying to figure out from RX if he's trying to figure out wear resistance or edge stability.

Personally I wouldn't bother using 3V for the knuckle draggers, a lot of extra work, expense, time, wear and tear on equipment when all they are going to do is abuse the blade anyway, A2 will work just as well or better depending and will give the customer a very tough blade for that type use that's affordable.

Now as the customer learned what knives are really for we could explore other options.

 

[The cow]

There is a heck of a lot more that goes into edge retention than just the steel. Edge geometry, heat treat, materials being cut etc all come into play
I have a SOCOM Delta in ATS34 that I've never had to sharpen. I attribute that to mindful stropping and some awesome stropping.
I also have some old school Old Hickory blades that I haven't had to resharpen in well over a year, but they see nothing more than vegetables and meat. I have a ESEE Junglas that often needs a light sharpening after every trip, but that sees a lot of oak...
I have some of that mystery Swedish steel for my Mora that I use for carving, bugger rarely even needs to be touched after several spoons.


Personally, I've never been too picky on the steel. I favor steels that are relatively easy to sharpen in the field over steels that are reknown for their edge holding capabilities. I'd love to get my grubbly little mitts on a 3v scandi blade since it seems like a match made in heaven. But sadly, its a rarity only matched by the wait time and price tag.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Hi.

I recently purchased a "super steel" ZT. I must say, the rigidity/strength of the blade is quite something. My understand is that I could cut carboard boxes all day long and not have to worry about sharpening. Time will tell.

I can do that with the knives I make of 440C HTed to an RC of 60 & Cyro. The blade geometry thickness of steel and who's cutting and what they are cutting on are part of the equation as well.

 

[Ankerson]

I can do that with the knives I make of 440C HTed to an RC of 60 & Cyro. The blade geometry thickness of steel and who's cutting and what they are cutting on are part of the equation as well.

Yep, very true.

One would actually have to cut a lot of cardboard in a day on the job to dull some well made knives that are nice and thin.

 

[B34NS]

Personally I wouldn't bother using 3V for the knuckle draggers, a lot of extra work, expense, time, wear and tear on equipment when all they are going to do is abuse the blade anyway, A2 will work just as well or better depending and will give the customer a very tough blade for that type use that's affordable.

Now as the customer learned what knives are really for we could explore other options.

Haha agreed. Yea that's how I've always seen it too, although it's funny to hear about A2 referred to by some as "regular" or even "junk" steel.

Just like blind tasting wine, I don't think there's a soul on here who can slice something with a knife made as close to possible as one another with two different steels, and be able to tell which is the "super steel".

 

[Ankerson]

Haha agreed. Yea that's how I've always seen it too, although it's funny to hear about A2 referred to by some as "regular" or even "junk" steel.

Just like blind tasting wine, I don't think there's a soul on here who can slice something with a knife made as close to possible as one another with two different steels, and be able to tell which is the "super steel".

Give me 5 to 10 mins and I could tell you.

But then I have a huge database to look at.

I have actually done it, more than a few times.

And also using the same steel with different HT protocols and I can tell the difference.

But that's what I do so i have the advantage.

 

[RX-79G]

Separating something essentially, I suppose.
I ask "what is unacceptable" because you seem to have a penchant/hard-on for defining everything or peoples' definition of particular things. So I guess I'm just curious what level of sharp you view as "acceptable".

Actually, a lot of other people seem to have a hard-on for divining the hidden, secret agenda that I must have to ask the questions I do. I don't. I may suspect something to be true - but am fine having my suspicions disproven.

Case in point, I wondered if twice the good steel could equal the edge holding of super steel - and had my question answered early on: No. Some of the super steels will hold an edge more than twice as long as really good tool steels in cutting tests. I'm convinced.


More recently, the people posting in this thread have attempted to convolute a very simple idea: How long do different steels retain their edges?

So here's my newest suspicion: Comparing steels qualities is a straightforward, scientific and logical pursuit. The constant mantra of "it depends" is frankly ridiculous. Mora made 1075 equivalent knives with 22 degree inclusive edges, and the nicest super steel is also appropriately ground at 22 degrees. Once you have a range of knives at a reasonably acute sharpness and comparable hardnesses, it shouldn't be a such a pain to make some judgments about what sort of cutting they do or do not compare on.


As far as this idea of "acceptable sharpness" - it doesn't matter. Pick a level and apply that level consistently. The point is the degree of edge degradation, not trying to figure out what level of sharpness is wrong for a banana.

 

[inkynate]

Even some people's hero

Easy tiger, my only hero is Ricky Bobby.

 

[Ankerson]

Easy tiger, my only hero is Ricky Bobby.

Thought you would like that.

 

[Ankerson]

So here's my newest suspicion: Comparing steels qualities is a straightforward, scientific and logical pursuit. The constant mantra of "it depends" is frankly ridiculous. Mora made 1075 equivalent knives with 22 degree inclusive edges, and the nicest super steel is also appropriately ground at 22 degrees. Once you have a range of knives at a reasonably acute sharpness and comparable hardnesses, it shouldn't be a such a pain to make some judgments about what sort of cutting they do or do not compare on.

I have done those tests and the difference is and can be much greater than 2X, more like 10X or more depending on the actual steels and yes at 10 DPS with no micro bevels.

But then my results aren't slanted and or slide rule affected.

Tests done over the years and not much really changes as far as the order goes really.

I would have to really corrupt the testing method to make any big differences like slant it in one direction or another, like dull one of the knives before testing or sharpen one during testing and not the other, push cutting with one and slicing with the other, different edge angles on the knives, large differences in geometry....

That or just make up the data and have the results to what someone wanted it to be.

You know stuff like that.

Personally I don't care what the results are, I never really did, I just test and record the data, it is what it is and that really is the difference in what I do and some others.

People with no agendas or something to that effect that are doing actual real testing should have results similar to mine (Same Ball Park), not exact, but similar in the same basic order for the most part with no large differences. And here is the real kicker, those that I know who are actually doing real cutting, honest above board testing are in the same ball park as I am.

 

[RX-79G]

I have done those tests and the difference is and can be much greater than 2X, more like 10X or more depending on the actual steels and yes at 10 DPS with no micro bevels.

But then my results aren't slanted and or slide rule affected.

Tests done over the years and not much really changes as far as the order goes really.

I would have to really corrupt the testing method to make any big differences like slant it in one direction or another, like dull one of the knives before testing or sharpen one during testing and not the other, push cutting with one and slicing with the other, different edge angles on the knives, large differences in geometry....

That or just make up the data and have the results to what someone wanted it to be.

You know stuff like that.

Personally I don't care what the results are, I never really did, I just test and record the data, it is what it is and that really is the difference in what I do and some others.

People with no agendas or something to that effect that are doing actual real testing should have results similar to mine (Same Ball Park), not exact, but similar in the same basic order for the most part with no large differences. And here is the real kicker, those that I know who are actually doing real cutting, honest above board testing are in the same ball park as I am.

Then I'm glad we agree: Two steels can be directly compared at the same edge angle, super steels are more than twice the edge holding of tool steels and a level of degraded sharpness can be measured.

 

[Ankerson]

Then I'm glad we agree: Two steels can be directly compared at the same edge angle, super steels are more than twice the edge holding of tool steels and a level of degraded sharpness can be measured.

Yes we do agree. :thumbup:

Some of the super steels are actually tool steels, a large number of them actually.

 

[RX-79G]

Yes we do agree. :thumbup:

Some of the super steels are actually tool steels, a large number of them actually.

And some of the non-tool steels are used for tool making. But most of us use "tool steels" to talk about the highest grade of non-super steels.

 

[Ankerson]

And some of the non-tool steels are used for tool making. But most of us use "tool steels" to talk about the highest grade of non-super steels.

I always preferred to go by alloy content to catalog them, never liked the super steel name.

CPM 10V is a tool steel as an example, same as CPM M4, how they are used outside of the knife industry.

 

[David Martin]

I can do that with the knives I make of 440C HTed to an RC of 60 & Cyro. The blade geometry thickness of steel and who's cutting and what they are cutting on are part of the equation as well.

Standard 440C given good attention will cut a lot of sisal rope & card board. So much that it takes me 2 days of cutting. Then if you step up to the powder version 440XH you get even more. DM

 

[RX-79G]

I always preferred to go by alloy content to catalog them, never liked the super steel name.

CPM 10V is a tool steel as an example, same as CPM M4, how they are used outside of the knife industry.

"Super steel" is a stupid name, and doesn't mean anything about the use of the metal or the kind of alloy it is. All the name really tells us is that the stuff is hard to make, hard to work and going to make the knife expensive. And we hope/assume/pray that all the extra expense yields measurably greater performance than the stuff that costs a third as much. And when they are good, we keep using them. There are plenty of "super steels" that are now "discontinued steels" because they weren't worth it.

 

[Steel_Drake]

Never said they are easy to work with.

Repairing, regrinding, reprofiling is much different than basic sharpening and that's what most people reference as to hard to sharpen or easy to sharpen.

Carbide content will have a large effect on that because the same wear resistance that allows the edge to hold for a longer amount of time will have the very same effect on whatever stone one sharpens with, it will resist the stone in the same way.

SIC, Ceramics and Diamonds will handle any steel without much of an issue.

Sharpening with the above can be easy and for the most part is even if the edge is dull, I have taken 10V from dull to shaving with nothing more than a SIC loaded strop in a very short time.

Things that I have always said....

To get one thing one has to give up another when it comes to steels, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

With production knives, this is at the crux of the issue: Given the large influence geometry has on cutting performance and edge retention, how does it make any sense to recommend people purchase production knives in steels it may not even be practical for them to re-profile into high-performance geometries? In my own use case, I run my EDC folders at ~5-7 dps edge bevels with a 15 dps micro-bevel and even with an Atoma 140x whetstone and a preference for low-to-moderate carbide steels, it still takes quite a bit of time to bring the stock geometry on an 2-3mm spine FFG Spyderco down to ~0.010"-0.015" behind the edge.

What is your typical buyer supposed to do with a high wear-resistant steel and the typical sharpening equipment they have access to? And if they're going to leave the geometry stock because they don't have the patience or equipment to thin it out, then all the money they've spent on a high wear-resistant steel has been utterly squandered because a lower-wear steel at a thinner geometry will have better cutting ability and edge-retention based on that geometry.

Again, this is without even contesting the idea that high carbide volume steels will outperform "lesser steels" at identical geometries, just looking at the practical implications of high wear resistant steels in production knives.

 

[B34NS]

"Super steel" is a stupid name, and doesn't mean anything about the use of the metal or the kind of alloy it is. All the name really tells us is that the stuff is hard to make, hard to work and going to make the knife expensive. And we hope/assume/pray that all the extra expense yields measurably greater performance than the stuff that costs a third as much. And when they are good, we keep using them. There are plenty of "super steels" that are now "discontinued steels" because they weren't worth it.

we just used to call it alloyed tool steel.

 

[RX-79G]

we just used to call it alloyed tool steel.

Sure, but that doesn't draw any line between cheap A2 and S90V. That's all "super steel" means - when tool steels get pricey.