Bad Survival Advice Makes Me Wonder...

[Smash05]

Flip flopping is a natural progression through learning new ways of doing things and improving ones skills. In the bush, carrying and using different tools is multitasking.

I love it Funny thing about knives - they all pretty much do the same thing, some just do it differently. We get so uptight about it sometimes. These tools have been around for thousands of years and we think we come to the table with so much knowledge

 

[Elen]

Here's why the multi-tool or SAK trumps a single-blade knife for survival:

1st) A person is more likely to avoid breaking a multi-tool or SAK that a large heavy duty knife.
Why?
Because we all understand that a multi-tool or SAK is not overly strong.
We understand that it was not intended to be abused or pushed beyond its limits.
We are much more likely to use the various tools as intended and not as blunt crude heavy force tools.

But if one has a knife that is supposedly designed for "hard" or "heavy" use, I think the user is more likely to expect it to handle some abuse.
But since no knife is immune from being broken, the heavy use knife is more likely to be pushed beyond its limits.

2nd) What happens if the knife does break?

Let's say you've got a single-blade knife....for whatever reason you push it beyond its limits and the blade snaps:
Now you have a handle without a blade and a blade without a handle to survive with....certainly not the ideal combo for survival.

Now let's say you have a multi-tool like the Leatherman Charge....and for whatever reason you push the blade beyond its limits and the blade snaps:
Now you have a piece of broken blade, and a multi-tool without a plain-edge main blade.
But the Charge still has a woodsaw, a metal saw/file, various srewdrivers, pliers, wire cutters/strippers, and a serrated edge sheepsfoot blade with gutting hook.
Certainly not the ideal survival combo, but much better than a broken single-blade knife.

I like to think of myself as a man who respects everyone's opinion to a reasonable extent. I somewhat, slightly agree with some of the points you've made here, but I also claim that you show a very highly biased and unrealistic view of things in that post. Why? Let me explain.

First, you argue that a person is more likely to break a heavy duty fixed blade than a SAK or other such multitool. You argue that this is because no one expects multitools to be tough and "indestructible", yet people do expect heavy duty knives to be tough and handle abusive use. Yes, I agree that there are different expectations - as there should be. Or do you believe that we should expect flimsy folding knives to be as durable or, if you prefer, as "fragile" as a heavy duty fixed blade? No, of course you don't. You speak of knowledgeable users, and then say something like this. Show me the knowledgeable, intelligent knife user that's going to break their heavy duty fixed blade out in the field where they very much need it. There isn't any such user. Why? Because such users are not knowledgeable and intelligent, but utterly idiotic! No one in their right mind is going to break their heavy duty knife in a survival situation, because no one in their right mind will abuse a heavy duty knife in such a situation. An idiot might, sure. But do you believe that an idiot couldn't break a SAK or other multitool in such a situation? You see, I'm the kind of man that believes in intelligence. Intelligent people have reasonable expectations. Idiots have unreasonable expectations. As an intelligent person, I can expect a heavy duty knife to perform well in tasks that will break a multitool, because it will in fact perform those tasks. As an intelligent person, I expect and in fact know that the same heavy duty knife will break, if I subject it to ridiculous abuse like hammering through metal or extremely heavy prying. What this means is that I, as well as any other intelligent person with reasonable expectations based on reality, will in fact be astronomically less likely to ever break a heavy duty knife than a multitool or similar weaker item - while, of course, being able to get much better performance out of the heavy duty knife than I would from said multitool or similar.

Or, I could have said that in a lot fewer words. Like this: it's utter, compete, total crap to claim that a heavy duty knife is more likely to break than a SAK or multitool, assuming the user has half a brain. And if we assume the user does not have even half a brain, then we can also assume that he is able to break any knife, and most certainly will break any folding knife or multitool given to him due to his limitless lack of expertise.

As for your second argument, it doesn't accurately reflect reality, either. You do realize, do you not, that blades don't always break at the handle? The only blade damage I've ever been able to accidentally cause on any knife was losing the tip on a number of Moras - and even this was only because I didn't care at all about the knife, since Moras are far easier to replace than socks. Overstressing a heavy duty fixed blade is a lot more likely to result in a broken tip than a knife broken apart at the handle - unless you're specifically trying to break the handle and blade junction, which you probably should not try to do in a survival situation. And what happens if you lose the tip? Well, not much. You'll have less of an ability to stab at things, but I bet that won't get you killed anytime soon. You will still have a lot of perfectly good cutting edge left. This is, of course, not true with multitools, where the blades are so fragile and small that they are much more likely to lose large parts or even all of their blade. Sure, you might have a secondary blade left, which will still fall apart easier than what's left of the heavy duty knife. Yep, such is life. Sure, it is possible to break a heavy duty knife at the handle. But if you manage to do that, then you quite possibly won't ever be able to survive without destroying every single blade on your multitool because of the immense stupidity and lack of knowledge required to cause such damage.

That's what I think anyway. Please do not consider this as a personal attack, as that was not my intention with this. If it came off sounding like one, which it probably did, I sincerely apologize. I just dislike people distorting the truth, even if it's done in good faith or with good intentions. With all that said, I refer to my previous post and restate that most survival situations can be handled without any kind of knife, and certainly with a 2 $ Chinese folding knife, too. That just isn't a very effective or reliable way of handling things. Nor a comfortable way - all multitools have downright shitty ergonomics in long term use and cold weather, compared to any reasonable fixed blade.

 

[ilbruche]

Talk about flip-flop.

I can't think of a single task that I would need to do in order to survive that would break my knife.

Let's see....I'm in the forest (or desert) and I need shelter:
Well, I've built countless shelters before and I've never broken a knife while making them.
In fact, I often don't even need a knife to make a shelter.

Okay, I've made my shelter and now I would like a fire:
Well, I've created many many fires in my lifetime, and again, I've never even came close to breaking a knife while building one.

Okay, I've got shelter and a fire, now I would like some water:
Maybe a stream or pond is nearby, or maybe it's just morning dew to drink....but I can't see breaking a knife while collecting water.

Okay, I've got shelter, a fire, and some water....I guess it's time to get something to eat:
Fishing, making traps and snares, making weapons for hunting....I've did all of that before and I've never even come close to breaking a knife.


I could go on and on, but let's be honest; for survival, the chances of a knowledgable person breaking their knife is practically "0".

In fact, a knowledgable person will not willingly risk breaking their knife in a survival situation.
A knowledgable person would know the value of a knife in such a situation.

 

[rickppoole]

I've always heard "the more you know the less you need". It seems to me that your experience level might be a most important factor in determining the best tool for you. I'd guess that Cabella's is writing a pamplet for people with very little knowledge of survival or bushcraft skills.

I've took a basic course that was taught by an ex airforce survival instructor and he recomended for the class (all complete novices) A Leatherman Wave with a SAK as a backup. The skills we were taught involved building basic shelters, getting water, making fire, navigation, and signaling.

We never learned to hunt or even gather edibles. We never had to chop or dig anything- though we did plenty of sawing. We were taught that in nearly all modern survival situations we were likely to find ourselves in, our strategy should be to sit tight, not get injured, and wait to be resecued (hopefully within 1-5 days).

His point was that we were much more likely to die of panic, hypothermia, or dehydration than anything else, and as rookies, the Leatherman was our best choice for a single tool to keep us alive.

 

[allenC]

Like this: it's utter, compete, total crap to claim that a heavy duty knife is more likely to break than a SAK or multitool, assuming the user has half a brain.

I don't think you understood what I said.
I never said that a heavy duty knife is "more likely to break" that a SAK or multi-tool.
I said: "A person is more likely to avoid breaking a multi-tool or SAK that a large heavy duty knife."

Show me the knowledgeable, intelligent knife user that's going to break their heavy duty fixed blade out in the field where they very much need it. There isn't any such user. Why? Because such users are not knowledgeable and intelligent, but utterly idiotic! No one in their right mind is going to break their heavy duty knife in a survival situation, because no one in their right mind will abuse a heavy duty knife in such a situation.

I disagree.
Judging from the various posts here on Bladeforums, many folks routinely baton with their fixed-blades.
And regardless of how tough the knife is, and regardless of how many logs one has batoned before, every baton instance risks breaking the blade.

Knives don't just break for no reason....people break them by pushing them beyond their limits.
And I stand by my belief that folks are not as likely to push a SAK or multi-tool beyond its limits as they are a knife that is marketed as a heavy duty knife.

One possible exception might be cheap and easily replaced knives in non-survival situations.
It's human nature that folks tend to abuse things that they can cheaply and easily replace....especially when it's a non-survival situation and they are in no real danger....as noted in this remark:

The only blade damage I've ever been able to accidentally cause on any knife was losing the tip on a number of Moras - and even this was only because I didn't care at all about the knife, since Moras are far easier to replace than socks.

all multitools have downright shitty ergonomics in long term use and cold weather, compared to any reasonable fixed blade.

Not true.
The large locking Victorinox SAKs are quite comfortable.
And my Leatherman Charge is fine for any reasonable amount of cutting.

 

[andrew7978]

Just let me say, I was not accusing anyone personally of being a flip flopper or anything like that. My point was that the general trends of threads lately seem to have shifted from batoning and choppers to not really needed to cut much on a camping trip (thanks guys, I just finished purchases some fixed blades and choppers, not I am going to have to start spending more on folders

I admit i dont really need to cut much myself, but i still carry a fixed and a small hatchet.

 

[Elen]

I don't think you understood what I said.
I never said that a heavy duty knife is "more likely to break" that a SAK or multi-tool.
I said: "A person is more likely to avoid breaking a multi-tool or SAK that a large heavy duty knife."

Ah, I knew you were going to say that. Yes, I noticed your choice of words. But I do have some trouble understanding the supposedly enormous difference between my interpretation and your actual words. You see, if it is easier to "avoid breaking" item A than it is to "avoid breaking" item B, then that means that item B is "more likely to break" - assuming that the user is not intentionally trying to break the items, in which case neither would probably be more likely to not break than the other, because they will keep going until they succeed in breaking it. I claim that it is easier to "avoid breaking" a heavy duty knife than a multitool, because heavy duty knives are more durable, and nothing in the world prevents your brain from working so that you can avoid overstressing the heavy duty knife. Actually, that's not a claim. That's a fact. Idiots, as I said, are a different thing, and they can break any knife given enough of a chance and no one to take care of them.

I disagree.
Judging from the various posts here on Bladeforums, many folks routinely baton with their fixed-blades.
And regardless of how tough the knife is, and regardless of how many logs one has batoned before, every baton instance risks breaking the blade.

Yes, many routinely do. But how many routinely baton in a survival situation? How many here have even been in a survival situation, especially with their folder? Batoning wood in a survival situation is stupid, unless you have no choice, in which case it's necessary, and then you would be in a lot of trouble anyway with a multitool or a single-bladed folder (yes, they can baton, and some have saw blades, but their not free of the risk, either).

The toughness of the knife does matter a lot. It is decisive. Show me even just one Busse or Ranger, for example, that broke while batoning wood with a wooden baton (not batoning metal with a metal hammer). Show me even just one. You cannot. Do you know why? Because they can take it. They can take a thousand baton strikes if you feel like it. They were made to do it. And even if you were the least lucky person in the world and got a rare defective specimen, and had not tested it before field use, that kind of misfortune could happen with a multitool or folder, just as well - and since they are inherently weaker, they could break in much, much, much lighter use, even if they had survived it before. Knives of poor or mediocre quality are a different thing. Sure, you can break a Chinese made "heavy duty" knife while batoning, and it probably won't even be difficult.

Knives don't just break for no reason....people break them by pushing them beyond their limits.

Yes. And some knives have a limit a hell of a lot higher than others. That is why they are, in that sense, better knives, because they are less likely to fail you.

And I stand by my belief that folks are not as likely to push a SAK or multi-tool beyond its limits as they are a knife that is marketed as a heavy duty knife.

Stand by it all you want, that doesn't make any difference in reality. It would not be immensely difficult to verify your claim. Someone could contact Victorinox and ask roughly how large a percentage of their knives come back for warranty work because of broken blades or such. Then someone could ask how many Busses come back with broken blades. The percentage would be a lot larger with Victorinox. By your logic, it would be exactly the opposite. I know a lot of (stupid) guys that have broken SAK blades, and more. None of them have ever broken an actually well made heavy duty knife, even a simple hukari. Why might that be? Because durable knives last longer, and do not break as easy. That is why they are less likely to break, and easier to avoid breaking. I restate that anyone with brains can decide to avoid abusing their blade, no matter what blade it is. If I go easy on a multitool, it will not break. If I go easy on a heavy duty knife, it will not break. If I go hard on a multitool, it WILL break. If I go hard on a heavy duty knife, it still won't break. To argue anything else is... well, so absurd, especially without hard evidence supporting the argument, that it boggles my fairly simple mind.

Not true.
The large locking Victorinox SAKs are quite comfortable.
And my Leatherman Charge is fine for any reasonable amount of cutting.

Amusingly, I find all the locking SAKs, and certainly all Leathermans I've ever held, to have absolutely godawful ergonomics compared to a decent fixed blade actually designed to be held in hand and used, and not only in case of emergency or trivial small cutting jobs. I would be okay with a SAK. But I would lie if I said it was ergonomical, compared to my better knives. Even the very concept of having to open a knife before use is anything but ergonomical, and that's not even got anything to do with the handles themselves, which are quite awful, although good for a folding knife. (What if you need the knife right the F now, and not once you can get a blade open?)

 

[allenC]

What if you need the knife right the F now, and not once you can get a blade open?

While it's true that a SAK usually needs two hands to open it (except the One Hand Trekker), the Leatherman Charge can be open with one hand in less than 2 seconds.

And nearly all modern pocket-clip folders (Benchmades, Spyderco, Kershaw, CR, etc...) can all be opened with one hand in less than 2 seconds easily.

Heck, I can even get my Buck 110 out of its pouch and open it with one hand in less than 4 seconds.

 

[Elen]

While it's true that a SAK usually needs two hands to open it (except the One Hand Trekker), the Leatherman Charge can be open with one hand in less than 2 seconds.

And nearly all modern pocket-clip folders (Benchmades, Spyderco, Kershaw, CR, etc...) can all be opened with one hand in less than 2 seconds easily.

Heck, I can even get my Buck 110 out of its pouch and open it with one hand in less than 4 seconds.

Yes. But,

Can you do that with 100 % reliability? With your off-hand? Your slightly frostbitten off-hand?

I can, with a fixed blade and a good sheath. Every time. In a lot less time.

 

[allenC]

But I do have some trouble understanding the supposedly enormous difference between my interpretation and your actual words.

If you don't understand the difference then I don't think that I'm the one who can help you....but I'll try anyway.

You see, if it is easier to "avoid breaking" item A than it is to "avoid breaking" item B, then that means that item B is "more likely to break" -

This is true only if you neglect to consider the nature of the item's intended use.
For example:
Is a paperclip easy to break?
Physically and structurely; yes.
But in its intended useage; no.

Batoning wood in a survival situation is stupid,....

I suspect that this is about the only thing you and I will agree upon.

 

[1Tracker]

I have to agree that both AllenC and Elen make valid points, and that my opinion tends more towards the lines of Elen's. I think subconciously when I am using a favorite knife, whatever it is; that i am more careful not to damage it than not. It's not that i don't get the job done at hand, it's more that i lean towards knowing what I expect from the tool in my hand. If i need something that's expendable I'll make it from wood with my knife and let that break.

I agree that a FB is a better bet than a typical SAk or folder in that it's a one hand operation, think broken hand, let alone broken arm in the bush after an accident. Even Les Stroud decided it was actually too much of a hassle to continue 'faking' a broken arm in his plane crash scenerio. I don't need anything to hinder my survival, so it's a belt knife for me whether it be a 3" blade or a 7" blade I care not; it just needs to be able to work without my inputing too much thought.

A multitool or SAK have there place in the everyday work lives of most city/surburban folk; but if you are trully off in the wilds that weight is better carried IMO in a small hatchet/ saw combo.

 

[allenC]

Yes. But,

Can you do that with 100 % reliability? With your off-hand? Your slightly frostbitten off-hand?

I can, with a fixed blade and a good sheath. Every time. In a lot less time.

No I can't....and neither can anyone else.
It's not a matter of folder vs fixed....it's a matter of the inability to feel what's in your grasp.
If your hand is so numb that you can't even grasp your folder, you're not going to be able to grasp and use your fixed-blade either.
I've seen many a Soldier with hands so cold and numb that they could not even hold their own rifle....including myself.

 

[allenC]

I think that the desire for a fixed-blade stems a great deal from fear...

Folks are still afraid of the boogeyman when they go in to the wilderness.
And carrying a fixed-blade makes them less afraid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm afraid of the boogeyman too.
But my security blanket is a handgun.

 

[Elen]

If you don't understand the difference then I don't think that I'm the one who can help you....but I'll try anyway.


This is true only if you neglect to consider the nature of the item's intended use.
For example:
Is a paperclip easy to break?
Physically and structurely; yes.
But in its intended useage; no.


I suspect that this is about the only thing you and I will agree upon.

Actually, I think that we can agree on a lot of other things, too. For example, I think we can both agree that the intended usage of a knife is not to baton wood. I think so. You seem to think so. We therefore agree, unless I have missed something.

Now, a multitool with a knife blade is, in theory "a knife". A heavy duty fixed blade is certainly "a knife." Knives have a certain intended usage that we mostly agree on, I think: cutting things. In this use of cutting things, I find it hard to believe that it would be easier to avoid breaking a multitool with a knife blade that it would be to avoid breaking a heavy duty fixed blade knife.

You see, heavy duty fixed blades are knives. They are designed to cut. (Only some very crappy or very collectible ones are not designed to cut.) The heavy duty part comes from being designed to handle stress beyond the stresses of trivial cutting, but they are still knives, designed to cut. A heavy duty knife isn't intended to hammer or pry. It can do them, sometimes even highly effectively, but that's not their intended, main usage. If you ask Jerry Busse which kind of tool for prying stuff you should buy, he will not tell you to buy a Busse knife, he'll tell you to buy a prybar. If you asked specifically about a knife for prying, his answer would be different, of course.

That's my point exactly. Heavy duty knives are "heavy duty" because they can handle extra stress better than others. Yet they are still knives, and as knives, they should be used only for cutting, unless 1) the situation is such that it does not matter if you break your knife, like for example batoning wood in a car camp, or 2) the situation is so unlikely and dire that you absolutely must abuse the knife, in which case a multitool would likely get you killed. Peter Hjortberger of Fällkniven always says this, and even includes it in the knife packaging material, I seem to recall: knives are meant for cutting, but if the situation calls for it, a tough knife will handle a lot more and be less likely to break than a more flimsy knife.

No I can't....and neither can anyone else.
It's not a matter of folder vs fixed....it's a matter of the inability to feel what's in your grasp.
If your hand is so numb that you can't even grasp your folder, you're not going to be able to grasp and use your fixed-blade either.
I've seen many a Soldier with hands so cold and numb that they could not even hold their own rifle....including myself.

I've been in some pretty cold weathers. Never have I lost, entirely, the ability to feel what is in my hands. If that happens, someone has screwed up, and it may have been you. We should be prepared for the cold, so we don't die so quickly when it comes in trying to turn us into lifeless statues of ice. I have had my hands somewhat frostbitten, though. In these cases, I've lost a lot of ability for fine motor control in the fingers, so much that opening a folder would be slow and difficult while not impossible, but drawing a fixed blade is still trivially easy to do. Now, in the safety of the backyard I've done stupid things like anyone else, including getting my hands all frosty in subzero water. Fun stuff, not quite feeling where your thumb is.

For me, the desire for a fixed blade stems from: 1) tradition (fixed blades are THE traditional, the very first and longest lasting, style of knife), 2) desire for reliability (fixed blades are more reliable), 3) and desire for the highest ergonomics (fixed blades don't have to compromise their handles for storing stuff in them like folders do, nor do they have to be of a compact size, so the handles can be ergonomically just right) and of course 4) desire for performance.

 

[1Tracker]

I think that the desire for a fixed-blade stems a great deal from fear...

Folks are still afraid of the boogeyman when they go in to the wilderness.
And carrying a fixed-blade makes them less afraid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm afraid of the boogeyman too.
But my security blanket is a handgun.

I respect your opinion Allen; but I do not fear anything in the bush that makes me carry a FB. Rather, i do not, and have never trusted a folding knife not to break when I most need it. If the chips are down in the bush the last thing I want on my mind is that the folder is'nt going to hold up. Warranties are worth ZILCH 100miles from nowhere my friend. A solid (read quality) FB will always be on my side, and a small 2" folder in my pants pocket; but I am not depending on the folder to do anything remarkable, unlike the FB. Ask an engineer to chime in, solid structure or jointed structure, which one is stronger overall?

 

[rebeltf]

Times have changed.

My Grandpa Reynolds only carried his 30.06 and a big PAL kitchen 'butcher' type knife when he went hunting for a few days ( as far as equipment is concerned ) ,no multitool , no folder with fancy steels , etc etc.

Personally I have EDC'd a MT since I got my first Gerber about 9 years ago , that along with my pocket knife du jour has served me well every time, and that includes camping at the beach , mountains , wherever.

A good MT can be a Godsend in many ways , that augmented by a good knife , your doing just fine.

 

[allenC]

I've been in some pretty cold weathers. Never have I lost, entirely, the ability to feel what is in my hands.

Try three weeks on a field training exercise in the korean winter....in an armored personnel carrier....without a heater.

Yeah, it sucked BIG TIME!!!

Everytime I start feeling nostalgic about my Army days, I just remember that exercise....and then I remember why I'm a civilian today.

 

[ICEAGE]

Multi tools have their places in day to day life, camping, hunting, fishing, ect.


But for actual "survival" I don't see it being the best of choices. Of course I'm no survival expert.



I don't see why someone can't carry two knives. (Or a knife and a multi) It won't be more then an added 1lb.



BTW: Surviverman carries a multi tool, however, he has a sat. phone, and a crew a few miles away to pick him up if something goes wrong, its hardly any better then Bear Grylls.

 

[Elen]

Try three weeks on a field training exercise in the korean winter....in an armored personnel carrier....without a heater.

Yeah, it sucked BIG TIME!!!

Everytime I start feeling nostalgic about my Army days, I just remember that exercise....and then I remember why I'm a civilian today.

Now that sounds like fun! I'm not sure how cold the Korean winter is, though, but having been to Siberia, I'm guessing it might get a "little" chilly in there! Yeah, APCs, or like we called them, "caskets of metal", aren't too good for keeping you warm. Or alive, if the other guy has something heavier than rifles.

Didn't you guys have proper clothes, though? With the stuff I would wear in the military, there was no problem sleeping outside in the snow in -30 C weather and heavy winds in Lapland. Of course, we'd burrow under the snow for comfort. Or was it that the brass just wanted to throw you into a tight spot unequipped for it to, how do they say, "toughen the guys up"? If it was the latter, then it's a real crap shoot. I do think some survival training with minimal equipment is reasonable, but I'm not sure they need to freeze the guys off so they don't feel their legs.

 

[Morablades]

I wouldn't rely on a multitool or one folder, but I would take a folder over a multitool along with a solid fixed blade. I could improvise on the chopping if I had to. There is one thing I don't understand, someone just made a mention of it in a previous post, why do people want to cut down on things that they would need because it is too much weight? I had a back injury and I know what it's like to have my pack full and walk for miles. I did cut down on a few pieces of gear and learned how to improvise, but not to the point of just carrying a folder. I would never sacrifice my fixed blade because it "adds weight". In fact, I know some people here were I live that piss and moan about carrying a fixed blade because "it adds more weight to carry." I had to ask them where there back bone was. It's kinda sad. I think the main reason stems from America becoming too comfortable for our own good.