Bad Survival Advice Makes Me Wonder...

[Stainz]

My 'fear' of my SAKs/traditional slippies has come from pinching/cutting a finger tip when retrieval from digging too deep in a branch/stick caused them to collapse. Being a slow learner, and reaching sixty this summer, it's happened to me a number of times - usually while whittling. My 110 fixed that problem - but not that decades old remembrance in my mind. I do feel safer with a FB, of course. Oddly, I've come full circle on that... I like smaller FBs now!

My idea now is simple - the Gerber/Leatherman multitools stay in our cars' glove box. I have small folders for some knife duties - and had a Buck 110 - then 192 - then considered a 102 for my 'woods-walker'. Now, my first Barkie, a 'Huntsman', is in a KSF pocket sheath (with a firesteel). It should be sufficient for most of my woods treks - especially if others are likely to be encountered, as we know what the average person 'thinks' when they see a sheathed knife. In tougher and/or longer treks, I might just have a larger sheathed friend along. In both cases, it is highly likely my other front pocket will have a 'louder' form of protection. The small folder, again, for mundane duties, could be a Buck Prince, Spydie S30V Native, or Kershaw Leek, for example. Sadly, I have these items, so I didn't provide another excuse to break out the checkbook.

Since my needs are potentially less rigorous, at least in theory, my plan suits me.

Stainz

 

[magneto]

BTW: Surviverman carries a multi tool, however, he has a sat. phone, and a crew a few miles away to pick him up if something goes wrong, its hardly any better then Bear Grylls.

Yeah survivor man carries a multi tool, Bear has someone carry his for him and bears crew does the work. (like staging the scenes).

 

[Angus McGunnigl]

My SOG Powerlock is a great tool.

If that is all I had with me, I would know to be careful about using the balde for cutting only.

I think that some demand too much from thier cutting tools. I know avid backpackers(25+ nights a year) and they carry SAK w/ a wood saw on them.

 

[longbow50]

My next multitool will be a Vic Swisstool. I saw one the other day and it had a nice shape. Very ergonomic/comfortable for me and the tools were well designed.

 

[sicily02]

Well lets face it a fixed blade is one piece of steel and has NO pivot point. In the lastest
Tactical Knives Cliff Jacobson said it best that a folder is not as strong as a fixed blade knife it all ready has a week point and that is at the pivot point. Locking or not locking
a folder is not as strong as a fixed blade knife. They both cut but at least one will not fold on your fingers. I have had this happen and it was a name brand locking knife.
Bryan

 

[Thomas Linton]

Gentles, please read Esav's post on page 1. "Flip-flopping" is not other than folks expressing their preferences, based on their experiences and training. Our views are the product of those things. All good to share, just don't get honked off if someone else comes from another place.

Death
Top three leading causes of death in the wilderness: falls; drowning; heart attacks = about 80% of the total from all causes. (If you have contradictory studies [vs. anecdotes, impressions, or "everyone knows"], please, please share. I can find only two studies - western national parks and New Hampshire SAR, and they agree.)

Batoning
Batoning wood with a stout fixed-blade knife is not classified as abuse by: a)any published survival expert I can find (Always ready to learn if you have references to contrary positions.); b) any manufacturer or maker of such knives to my knowledge. (Again, always ready to learn. That's mainly why I come here.) The list of knives that I have regularly practiced batoning with since I was taught in 1964 includes MORA's up to 1/2" thick khukuri, and they all survived fine - even survived Southern Yellow Pine.

Is an axe better? Yes -- if you have an axe.

Can you split wood (I mean split, not saw) using a saw? Yes. Sawing half-way through creates a stress-riser that facilitaes lengthway splits when the piece is struck sharply against an unyielding object. (Think trying to hit a home run with a bat sawed half-way through. The shards fly.)

Since adaptablity and improvising are critical survival skills (like swimming), why would anyone object to learning how to baton? On the grounds of doctrinal purity? Must be a new "religion" 'cause people have been hammering blades through wood with mallets for centuries.

Idiot-Proof
AKA "Railroad engineered." Refers to making a tool extra strong to resist the unskilled -- unskilled by virtue of lack of knowledge, experience, or physical dexterity (Please see the very informed comments above on what cold does to "fine motor skills." Fear, hunger, injury, or sickness can do the same.)

A multi-tool or SAK, as grand a thing as it is (and I have so many I hide them from my wife) is not "idiot-proof." Folding knife folding on finger(s) is far and away the most common cutting tool injury - MAYBE trivial at home -- less likely to be trivial in a survival situtation.

The observation about point loss seems right (AKA "Screw-driver tip" or "Paint can point"). The next most common damage I have seen is the half-moon chip out of the edge (AKA "Hollow-ground chopper edge"). But the only blades I have seen snapped clean off were on (at one time ) folding knives. And I have had the chance to see Boy Scouts in action for decades.(Ever see what they can to to the poor 'ole pole of a hand axe? Holy peening, Batman!! ) Get on eBay and look at the "fixer-uppers" for sale ("Beautiful stag bone scales but a problem [] with a missing main blade and short punch blade.")

So my prejudice is to carry a minimum of: a stout 4" fixed; a Gerber pull-out saw; and a ... uhhh ... Juice Pro.

 

[udtjim]

What the hell do people do with their knives. I have carried and worked with folding knives almost every day for 50 years and have yet to break one or close one on my fingers. Is a folder as strong as a fixed blade? NO. Is it strong enough for cutting and camp chores? Most of them darn sure are. I broke the tip off of a couple folders but the same would have happened to any fixed blade when used in the idiotic manner that they were used.

 

[Thomas Linton]

What the hell do people do with their knives.

About anything you can imagine and some past that. There are simply people around that have no "feel" for when to back off. (Like a co-worker who broke the claws off a Estwing Framming Hammer. He just kept leaning his 245 lbs on it until . . . . .) And, again, fear, cold, hunger, injury, or sickness does not cause homo sap to perform at optimal.

I have carried and worked with folding knives almost every day for 50 years and have yet to break one or close one on my fingers. Is a folder as strong as a fixed blade? NO. Is it strong enough for cutting and camp chores? Most of them darn sure are. I broke the tip off of a couple folders but the same would have happened to any fixed blade when used in the idiotic manner that they were used.

>Sure. Doesn't take much knife to do 99% of camp chores -- could probably do them with a paring knife from the kitchen drawer -- and something to sharpen it with. And 99+% of the time, you're not in a "survival" situation.

>Hence, the concept of "Idiot-proof." Perhaps more a concept than a 100% reality, but it's simply harder to "kill" an HI khukuri than a SAK.

New listing:

Offered and shown is a vintage Boy Scout knife with the tang mark of L.F. & C. / USA --- #03662. It’s a fixer-upper or just a filler until another one comes around. The maser blade & punch blade snapped sometime ago (seems consistent with LF & C’s). It is 3-5/8” closed with jigged stag-type fibroid handles free of defects and a pinned Boy Scout shield; the removable bail is not original.

(emphasis added; spelling as in original).

 

[Bushman5]

Gentles, please read Esav's post on page 1. "Flip-flopping" is not other than folks expressing their preferences, based on their experiences and training. Our views are the product of those things. All good to share, just don't get honked off if someone else comes from another place.

Death
Top three leading causes of death in the wilderness: falls; drowning; heart attacks = about 80% of the total from all causes. (If you have contradictory studies [vs. anecdotes, impressions, or "everyone knows"], please, please share. I can find only two studies - western national parks and New Hampshire SAR, and they agree.)

Batoning
Batoning wood with a stout fixed-blade knife is not classified as abuse by: a)any published survival expert I can find (Always ready to learn if you have references to contrary positions.); b) any manufacturer or maker of such knives to my knowledge. (Again, always ready to learn. That's mainly why I come here.) The list of knives that I have regularly practiced batoning with since I was taught in 1964 includes MORA's up to 1/2" thick khukuri, and they all survived fine - even survived Southern Yellow Pine.

Is an axe better? Yes -- if you have an axe.

Can you split wood (I mean split, not saw) using a saw? Yes. Sawing half-way through creates a stress-riser that facilitaes lengthway splits when the piece is struck sharply against an unyielding object. (Think trying to hit a home run with a bat sawed half-way through. The shards fly.)

Since adaptablity and improvising are critical survival skills (like swimming), why would anyone object to learning how to baton? On the grounds of doctrinal purity? Must be a new "religion" 'cause people have been hammering blades through wood with mallets for centuries.

Idiot-Proof
AKA "Railroad engineered." Refers to making a tool extra strong to resist the unskilled -- unskilled by virtue of lack of knowledge, experience, or physical dexterity (Please see the very informed comments above on what cold does to "fine motor skills." Fear, hunger, injury, or sickness can do the same.)

A multi-tool or SAK, as grand a thing as it is (and I have so many I hide them from my wife) is not "idiot-proof." Folding knife folding on finger(s) is far and away the most common cutting tool injury - MAYBE trivial at home -- less likely to be trivial in a survival situtation.

The observation about point loss seems right (AKA "Screw-driver tip" or "Paint can point"). The next most common damage I have seen is the half-moon chip out of the edge (AKA "Hollow-ground chopper edge"). But the only blades I have seen snapped clean off were on (at one time ) folding knives. And I have had the chance to see Boy Scouts in action for decades.(Ever see what they can to to the poor 'ole pole of a hand axe? Holy peening, Batman!! ) Get on eBay and look at the "fixer-uppers" for sale ("Beautiful stag bone scales but a problem [] with a missing main blade and short punch blade.")

So my prejudice is to carry a minimum of: a stout 4" fixed; a Gerber pull-out saw; and a ... uhhh ... Juice Pro.

Could'nt ahve said it better myself, +1 ! :thumbup:

 

[nodh]

There is another way to split a piece of wood lengthwise with a saw too. Saw down some inch or so at one end. Pull out the blade and place a wedge in the cut. Hit the wedge with something heavy and the wood is split.

 

[Liam Ryan]

All these discussions seem pretty pointless, as most everybody carries both a fixed blade and a multi tool. neither is better then the other, just better at it's required tasks.

I have never been in the woods and actually wished I had brought along a certain other knife, or felt the one I had was not up to the task at hand, I just used what I had and the sun still rose for me the next day.
(However there were a few times I would have liked to have a multi tool with pliers.)

 

[Elen]

All these discussions seem pretty pointless, as most everybody carries both a fixed blade and a multi tool. neither is better then the other, just better at it's required tasks.

I hate to nitpick (well, no, not really, I'm an unpleasant person like that ) , but I think that depends on where you live. Here in Finland, for example, most people certainly do not carry both a fixed blade and a multitool outdoors. People tend to carry multitools in urban environments, sure, because there they have use for them. But outdoors, they leave the multitools home and take a fixed blade, whether that be a simple Mora or a only slightly less cheap Marttiini, or something better. Differences in culture, I suppose.

 

[Liam Ryan]

by multi tool, I meant sak or any folder really. Of course some take just one knife, chopper, mora, buck 110, and do just fine with it. But I am sure anyone can see the merits of having 2 or more knives for different tasks with them.

 

[Elen]

by multi tool, I meant sak or any folder really. Of course some take just one knife, chopper, mora, buck 110, and do just fine with it. But I am sure anyone can see the merits of having 2 or more knives for different tasks with them.

Yeah, I thought you might mean that. I often use the word exactly like that myself. Even still I'm not entirely sure if a SAK is "officially" accepted as a multitool, or is it just a multi-bladed folder, or something else entirely.

A lot, probably most people here do bring two knives - one for food prep, and one for other tasks. The interesting thing, for me, is that around here, typically neither of those two knives is a folder of any kind, both are fixed blades instead. Which is exactly the way I like it, and personally use. I bet a lot of knife nuts from North America would be surprised to see how few people around here use folding knives. I may be just confused about it, but it seems to me there's a huge folding knife craze and even culture over there, but there's nothing even remotely like that over here. Knife nuts back here are very concentrated on fixed blades, although many carry multitools to work. I'm not entirely sure what has caused this difference. I would like to think it's because people here recognize the fixed blade as the more traditional and stronger type of knife, but more likely, I think, it is because of the legal environment, which considers folding knives and fixed blades equally illegal or legal, depending on the circumstances.

 

[Angus McGunnigl]

I sure do like beef jerky !

 

[mckrob]

Having spent close to a year working in the bush in Norway, I would say Elen is right, there is definitely a cultural aspect to what people carry. In Norway it seemed as though every skiier I ran into in the back country (and there were a lot, skiing is almost a religion there!) carried a traditional well-used fixed blade displayed proudly on their belt (i.e. Helle or Brusletto). I believe it is a matter of pride with the Norweigan's who seem to be very steeped in tradition (just try to get a pair of snowshoes on a Norweigan that's never used them, he will very stubbornly show up for work in skis!).

If these people were carrying a multi-tool, it was never visible on their belt which led me to believe that generally people were not carrying them, certainly none of the local guys I worked with seemed to bother with them and these guys were all mountain guides in their spare time.

It certainly was refreshing to walk down the street, even in the city (Lillehammer, Oslo), and not have people give you a strange look (I am sure many here know what I am talking about) for carrying a knife on your belt!

 

[Liam Ryan]

Sounds good to me!
It makes me wonder, how strong is the average mora compared to the average sak?
I like a sak because of all the other tools, though only the saw gets used very often, almost as much as the blade. Plus no need to put it on the belt, it can actually piggyback on a big sheath.
Give me a stout fixed blade, a mora, and a sak, and I'm happy.

 

[Elen]

It makes me wonder, how strong is the average mora compared to the average sak?

The Moras are a lot stronger than they look, and the blades will handle a lot of abuse that will totally murder a SAK. Moras aren't anywhere near the toughest of fixed blades, but they'll best almost any folder in toughness, that's for sure.

I love SAKs, they're the only "folders" I can be bothered to use and carry. When I don't need pliers, I'll just grab my SAK Ranger to work as a multitool - I don't need the knife blades, but the other tools come in handy quite often. Their small size and lower price makes me like them more than the larger locking SAKs, especially since I don't use the knife blades in them anyway, due to having a fixed blade EDC.

 

[allenC]

A lot, probably most people here do bring two knives - one for food prep, and one for other tasks. The interesting thing, for me, is that around here, typically neither of those two knives is a folder of any kind, both are fixed blades instead. Which is exactly the way I like it, and personally use. I bet a lot of knife nuts from North America would be surprised to see how few people around here use folding knives. I may be just confused about it, but it seems to me there's a huge folding knife craze and even culture over there, but there's nothing even remotely like that over here. Knife nuts back here are very concentrated on fixed blades, although many carry multitools to work. I'm not entirely sure what has caused this difference. I would like to think it's because people here recognize the fixed blade as the more traditional and stronger type of knife, but more likely, I think, it is because of the legal environment, which considers folding knives and fixed blades equally illegal or legal, depending on the circumstances.

Maybe North Americans and people from Finland take to the woods for different reasons....
I have noticed that most of my fellow countrymen tend to go in to the wilderness for only a few reasons:
Short day hikes, "off-roading" (Jeeps, ATV's, and dirt-bikes), hunting, fishing, mountain-climbing, and camping.

Short day hikes: I really can't see anyone lugging a stout fixed-blade with them for just a day of hiking trails.
Even a strong folder is probably overkill.

Off-roading: Most folks (at least the experienced ones) will have tools and such in the vehicle, but a multi-tool is certainly very handy....much more so than a fixed-blade.

Hunting: You really don't need a multi-tool, but one can come in handy for making adjustments to your gear (rifle, scope, stand, blind, etc...).

Fishing: A multi-tool is a very handy thing to have around for reels and other fishing gear.
But I will admit that a fixed fillet knife is nice if you intend to eat the fish out in the field.

Mountain-climbing: I'm not a mountain-climber, but I have noticed that very few climbers carry fixed-blade.
Maybe they already have too much gear to carry?

Camping: Again, a multi-tool is handy to have around the campsite.
It's good for fixing things and modifying other items that you might find (camp stoves, solar showers, air mattress pump, etc....).

Even our pioneer forefathers almost always carried more tools than just a fixed-blade.
Fixed-blades are fun, and every knife nut should have at least one.
But in my opinion, most folks would be better served with a good multi-tool.

 

[allenC]

In Norway it seemed as though every skiier I ran into in the back country (and there were a lot, skiing is almost a religion there!) carried a traditional well-used fixed blade displayed proudly on their belt (i.e. Helle or Brusletto).

I'm not a skiier, but I've seen plenty of folks "wipe out" and tumble down the hill while skiing....seems like a bad idea to have a fixed-blade hanging on your belt.