"Best in Show": knife judging

[RogerP]

Great post RJ. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[RJ Martin]

RJ, it's very pleasing to hear that some makers actually put a lot of though and effort into their show competition entries as I expect Les is right in that some makers just grab a knife (or more) off their table with little or no thought/effort. Thanks for sharing your process with us.

No problem. Just pointing out that it's not necessarily a hap-hazard process



^ I'm curious, how was it that you only heard about the judges previous year's comments (too heavy) 3 days before the show and how did you finally hear about it? Would have sure been helpful to have gotten that information before you finished your entry.


To clarify, I always consider weight as a factor in a good design. Just as we did with Helicopters. The DRT was the first knife I made that used 3/16" titanium, and when I got it finished, I thought it was a little heavy. I realized that it would be a BETTER knife if it weighted less. It wasn't a case of learning that weight is a consideration of the judges after the knife was finished-I had known that for a whole year. Now, some customers might prefer the knife with the additional heft. But, knowing that the judges valued weight reduction over heft drove my decision.

One thing I really enjoy doing is looking at all the entries for judging, and deciding for myself which entries I think are best. Then, after the winners are selected, I talk to the judges. Sometimes, my choices are the same as theirs, for the same reasons. Sometimes, my pics are way off, because of something about the category that I didn't know or failed to consider. Sometimes, I think the judges are wrong, but I still make mental notes of their comments, because, they are the judges. So I get educated.
I am always interested to learn what elevated the winning knife above the #2 knife. Knives are knives, and, if you pay attention, you can learn something about what made, say, a forged bowie win and incorporate that knowledge (or at least give it consideration) in designing a knife for another category.


I agree with you in that winning (though nice) seems to have less and less benefit and/or prestige for the makers. Probably due to the growing number of shows, thus the growing number of show competitions and the number of categories (or winners) in the competitions. Kind of makes one wonder that if only having a single all encompassing "best of show" or at least only 4-5 categories (rather than 10-15) would be better for all.

Well, if there wasn't a "tactical folder" category, I wouldn't stand a chance. Have you seen the engraved, gold-inlaid, (sometimes jewel encrusted!) knives that are entered in other categories? Lumping such different knives into one category would be tough. Sort of like taking all the gymnasts at the Olympics and just having one gold medal for "Best Gymnast".

 

[Kevin Jones]

^ I just believe simplicity could result in efficiency allowing most accurate judging and more prestigious/beneficial awards.

Just for example (off the top of my head) in no order of importance:

Best Folder
Best Bowie/Fighter
Best Tactical
Best Art Knife
Best Hunter

Then perhaps only these five winners (or whatever the reduced categories would ultimately be) would be judged to determine a "Best of Show".

Just a thought as opposed to having 16 categories.

 

[Lorien]

Why is 'Best Of' judging necessary? What is the purpose of determining who made the best of...? What does this competition do for custom knives?

I'm asking because I want to know. Not trying to be a smart ass.

 

[RogerP]

Why is 'Best Of' judging necessary? What is the purpose of determining who made the best of...? What does this competition do for custom knives?

I'm asking because I want to know. Not trying to be a smart ass.

The purpose is no different than that of any of the other awards. Best in particular categories - then best overall.

At a dog show they have best of particular breed groups, then best of show. Yes, you may have German Shepherd judged against a Schnauzer and a Spinger Spaniel - so what?

I don't really see what's so hard to understand.

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Lorien,

Why is 'Best Of' judging necessary? What is the purpose of determining who made the best of...? What does this competition do for custom knives?

You are of course right. Using RJ's example with regards to Olympic gymnasts.

What keep score in individual events to ultimately give an award for best overall?

Just give out gold medals to anyone who shows up. After all what does a gold medal do for gymnastics?

Not trying to be a smart ass.

My Dad always told me it is better to be a Smart ass...than a Dumb ass!

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Roger,

I don't really see what's so hard to understand.

Thanks, for a minute I thought this might just be an American thing.

 

[RogerP]

Well, if there wasn't a "tactical folder" category, I wouldn't stand a chance. Have you seen the engraved, gold-inlaid, (sometimes jewel encrusted!) knives that are entered in other categories? Lumping such different knives into one category would be tough. Sort of like taking all the gymnasts at the Olympics and just having one gold medal for "Best Gymnast".

I agree. Awards which reflect the diversity within the craft of custom knives make sense to me. I don't see what the down side is to multiple categories, or what the upside is to drastically reducing the award categories. Less is less, but I don't see why it is better. Is the judging system at Blade "inefficient" as it stands? Seems to me that the judges manage to come to their decisions on these multiple awards, year in and year out - and do so on time.

An awards at a show like Blade is inherently prestigious. The suggestion that the awards would somehow be MORE prestigious if there were fewer categories seems to me to be speculative at best.

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Kevin,

Best Folder
Best Bowie/Fighter
Best Tactical
Best Art Knife
Best Hunter

First, the Bowie and Fighter are two completely different knife styles.

They generally have "concepts" when being built. Most people who have trained with a blade would never pick the Bowie to use in a knife fight.

Now if you want to shrink the categories, you can get rid of:

Best Damascus

Best Handle

Best Collaboration

Best of the Rest.

Best Mechanism

With regards to your selection of categories:

What about:

Best Miniature.

Best Sword

Categories?

Part of the reason the Blade Show has so many categories is because of the incredible diversity of knives/swords that are exhibited at the show.

When I first started judging there were (I think) 7 categories. The reason there are so many now is because of the makers complaining there was no category for them.

Table holders spoke and Blade listened.

 

[RJ Martin]

Why is 'Best Of' judging necessary? What is the purpose of determining who made the best of...? What does this competition do for custom knives?

I'm asking because I want to know. Not trying to be a smart ass.

I think the most important thing it does is gives makers motivation to "raise the bar", primarily for themselves and possibly for the industry as a whole.

 

[RogerP]

Now if you want to shrink the categories, you can get rid of:

Best Damascus

Best Handle

Best Collaboration

Best of the Rest.

Best Damascus - I think that merits a stand-alone award as it is an area in and of itself which reflects incredible diversity and no small amount of skill.

Best Handle - I can see that being dropped, though I think it is an area - from an aesthetic and functional perspective - that deserves more attention than it gets. My main reason for saying it could go is that the award seems ill-defined: best handle in what respect? Most ergonomic, most innovative, most elaborate?

Best Collaboration - I agree that this one could go. Collaborations are not, in and of themselves, an identifiable stand-alone category within the custom knife field. And whatever the makers collaborated to make could go into one of the of the other judging categories.

Best of the Rest - This has always seemed completely artificial to me - an extra ward for the sake of having an extra award.

Sowrds and minitaures - I don't think it would benefit the custom knife community as a whole to tell these makers that, essentially, they don't count. Just because I don't collect those particular styles does not mean that they are without value.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Why is 'Best Of' judging necessary? What is the purpose of determining who made the best of...? What does this competition do for custom knives?

I'm asking because I want to know. Not trying to be a smart ass.

Not trying to be a smart ass either, but isn't "what's the best" of everything to a great extent what seems to make the world turn these days?

Just for example, when I was a kid, a bunch of us (probably 60 kids over 5 teams) had an absolute blast all summer long playing baseball on the neighborhood diamond.
Now whether it's baseball, soccer, gymnastics, cheering, children can't just have a good time, they are pressured to dedicate their lives to the sport traveling from state to state, sometimes all over the country in that ultimate quest to determine whose the absolute "BEST". When I was traveling A LOT, I was amazed how many of these youth teams I would see in the airports especially on Thursdays and Fridays when you would think they would be in school.
How often do we hear in the news of parents and even coaches actually fist fighting at games over whose kid or which team is the "best"?

Sorry if I ventured off topic a bit, however thought it was a great question.

 

[Lorien]

Thank you for your response RJ. It was your post which led me to ask that question, as even though you've won many awards, your view on this competition thing seemed bittersweet to me. And thank you Kevin, for taking my question seriously and adding your insight.



Roger and Les, while I appreciate your sarcasm, (condescending though it may have been) I hope that you understand my asking this question is to get serious responses from people who are specifically involved in this particular aspect of this industry, so that I can learn more about it, and maybe other people who aren't familiar with this process can learn too. It might be a simple question, but the answers can be interesting and complex. Not all of us in the forum have all those years of experience to come up with learned answers to this type of question, and hopefully newbs like me can come here and learn by asking questions freely and not get shat on for it, or be called a 'dumb ass'.

The fact is, I have never been to a show, and therefore I am trying to learn about these things wherever I can. Obviously, many answers to the questions I asked immediately spring to mind and they are all obvious, but I want to know OTHER people's answers to this question, people who have a seasoned view of these things who might be able to provide some insights.

 

[peterinct]

Excellent post RJ, in describing your preparing for entering one of your knives.

Les - While I may have a totally different philosophy than you much of the time, I must say...you can be quite entertaining

Peter

 

[RogerP]

Lorien, you are not a newb. And I would call you a dumbass if you were acting like one. I didn't and you weren't.

I regret that you didn't find my response helpful. Going forward, you may choose not to read them if you don't find it worth your time to do so. Certainly you will find company in that point of view. It's a free-ish forum - spend your time as you see best.

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Lorien,

and hopefully newbs like me can come here and learn by asking questions freely and not get shat on for it, or be called a 'dumb ass'.

I am constantly amazed at how many people do not read the entire post before the post back.

No one called you or anyone else a dumb ass.

I wrote (in your response to the "smart ass" comment). That my Dad used to tell me "Better to be a Smart Ass than a Dumb ass."

People tell me all the time I am a Smart Ass....and now you know my reply to them.

Ok, back to your question. You are obviously into bikes. So lets talk Tour De France.

Why have a winner of each stage? Why keep the "yellow jersey" in the news (as to who is wearing it) after each stage (that and who is getting the bouquet of flowers and the stuffed animal to raise in triumph).

Ultimately, the best (as in best time) wins the tour...gets to ride the bike and drink Champagne and ride their bike on a victory lap on the Avenue des Champs-Élysées.

What affect does this have on the biking world? Increased interest in biking and sales of bikes and gear around the world.

Not to mention the foundation and funding of the anti-doping organization whose sole purpose seems to be examining Lance Armstrong's 10 year old urine annually.

Speaking of Lance, if it wasn't for being declared the best...do you really think the "Live Strong" organization would have been founded...or that he would have had shot with Sheryl Crow (mmmmmm).

I believe General George Patton said it best "American's love a winner and will not tolerate a loser."

Then again we love the underdog till the become the champion...then our press can't wait to rip them to shreds!

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hi Kevin,
First, the Bowie and Fighter are two completely different knife styles.
They generally have "concepts" when being built. Most people who have trained with a blade would never pick the Bowie to use in a knife fight.

I totally agree Les, totally differently knives. I think you suspected that I knew that.

Hope you are around in a few weeks when the Blade Forum Best "Bowie" Contest begins and we are questioning whether the entries are "bowies" or "fighters"? It will be great to finally have someone to step in and make the un-disputed distinction.

Now if you want to shrink the categories, you can get rid of:

Best Damascus

Best Handle

Best Collaboration

Best of the Rest.

Best Mechanism

With regards to your selection of categories:

What about:

Best Miniature.

Best Sword

Categories?

I knew my 5 picks (as I stated in my post, were off the top of my head) were going to get panties in a wad, (especially considering whose questioning them) but my point was that it's getting borderline ridiculous having soooo many awards at shows.

Part of the reason the Blade Show has so many categories is because of the incredible diversity of knives/swords that are exhibited at the show.

When I first started judging there were (I think) 7 categories. The reason there are so many now is because of the makers complaining there was no category for them.

I assume some makers lobbying for some of these more obscure awards were the ones who thought it increased their chances of winning an award. Perhaps just creat an award for everyone who buys a table. Sorry, know I'm being ridiculous now.

Table holders spoke and Blade listened.

In addition, I wasn't singling out Blade Show, but addressing knife show competitions in general. I feel most of then could cut out some categories. I hear A LOT of complaints regarding knife show competitions in general. Most of which I don't agree with as many are just sour grapes. But our current show competition processes are not perfect by any means as demonstrated by this thread.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Peter,

Les - While I may have a totally different philosophy than you much of the time, I must say...you can be quite entertaining

You are in good company...most people on this forum seem to be about 180 degrees opposite of me.

Hard to believe I am a Field Editor for two different magazines, shows ask me to do seminars and they ask me to judge! LOL

 

[RogerP]

Hope you are around in a few weeks when the Blade Forum Best "Bowie" Contest begins and we are questioning whether the entries are "bowies" or "fighters"? It will be great to finally have someone to step in and make the un-disputed distinction.

That won't be required because, as I suspect you well know, the Best Bowie thread specifically includes bowies, fighters and camp knives.

I knew my 5 picks (as I stated in my post, were off the top of my head) were going to get panties in a wad, (especially considering whose questioning them) but my point was that it's getting borderline ridiculous having soooo many awards at shows.

Kindly refrain from projecting your personal preference for frilly undergarments onto others.

Thanks,

Roger

 

[Les Robertson]

Hey Kevin,

regarding knife show competitions in general. Most of which I don't agree with as many are just sour grapes.

Almost without exception those who complaining about the judging...is a case of sour grapes.

But our current show competition processes are not perfect by any means as demonstrated by this thread.

Completely disagree. This thread was started regarding heat treating and cutting ability of award winners at shows (with a not so obvious hidden agenda). Not to point out issues with the rules currently in place for judging.

Personally I have seen a lot of improvement in how the judging is done over the last 25 years.

Blade in particular has been at the forefront of this. providing awards for a diversity of knives that no other show offers.

I would suggest to you as I did to David that you contact Steve Shackelford and make suggestions as to how to improve the judging.