Brands comparable to busse

[Lycosa]

You HOGS owe me a Hartsfield!!

 

[sodak]

Of course if you wish to test toughness ...

I've been thinking about this and I think I have a better idea. Instead of performing biased tests by amateurs, why doesn't Busse have a lab test INFI, like all the other steels get tested? We have specific numbers for most (if not) all the other steels. If it's so much tougher than anything else, this would be another data point that could be legitimately used by their marketing department.

Not to mention this would put to rest all the controversy, controlled environment, scientific test, all of that. Why don't you go ask Busse why he won't do this?

 

[AdamFuzzyballs]

I've been thinking about this and I think I have a better idea. Instead of performing biased tests by amateurs, why doesn't Busse have a lab test INFI, like all the other steels get tested? We have specific numbers for most (if not) all the other steels. If it's so much tougher than anything else, this would be another data point that could be legitimately used by their marketing department.

Not to mention this would put to rest all the controversy, controlled environment, scientific test, all of that. Why don't you go ask Busse why he won't do this?

I personally don't think Busse cares what people who doubt his products have to say. I mean the company is certainly not hurting for sales, because they sale everything they make like hotcakes. And in reality, I've noticed that people either love his knives, or dislike them, there is not much "in between". I mean, yeah, he could test his steel, prove it's better than most other steels in its own right, but why should he? In all honesty he probably prefers to make people whine hoot and holler about how he's full of crap while he continues to sell products that have earned their reputation even if it's only in the "overbuilt" knife categories. This is not meant to be a direct attack, just my observation to your post:thumbup:

 

[rcb2000]

I've been thinking about this and I think I have a better idea. Instead of performing biased tests by amateurs, why doesn't Busse have a lab test INFI, like all the other steels get tested? We have specific numbers for most (if not) all the other steels. If it's so much tougher than anything else, this would be another data point that could be legitimately used by their marketing department.

Not to mention this would put to rest all the controversy, controlled environment, scientific test, all of that. Why don't you go ask Busse why he won't do this?

Nah, we'd rather see you two,, it could be fair, you each do each test with your knife and the other persons knife.
What do you have to lose? You seem pretty confident in your Fehrman,, and lab tests aren't as fun

 

[Cobalt]

AS for me ducking the charpy test question, I am not Jerry, so I cannot tell him what to do, sorry.

Ankerson, who much manilla rope do you use for a typical cutting test on a long lasting steel?

 

[Cobalt]

I think someone earlier in the thread asked about Busses ad challenge. There was one for the SHBM and one for the Basic which did everything just a little less. Here is the Basic 9 ad. Of course, the rope cutting part is incorrect as we all know it went to 2771 cuts.

 

[sodak]

I personally don't think Busse cares what people who doubt his products have to say. I mean the company is certainly not hurting for sales, because they sale everything they make like hotcakes. And in reality, I've noticed that people either love his knives, or dislike them, there is not much "in between". I mean, yeah, he could test his steel, prove it's better than most other steels in its own right, but why should he? In all honesty he probably prefers to make people whine hoot and holler about how he's full of crap while he continues to sell products that have earned their reputation even if it's only in the "overbuilt" knife categories. This is not meant to be a direct attack, just my observation to your post:thumbup:

I get what you're saying, and perhaps you are right. I actually do like my Busse's for the most part, it's the exaggerated opinions disguised as facts that I object to - if we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that also. It would be nice to see some hard numbers though...

 

[Velitrius]

Just when I was about to tease about the pink Native, I saw the loaded glock mag *gulp*


Hahaha

Heck, the entire NFL is decked out in pink this month. It's all good.

Back to arguing over comparable / noncomparable traits in edged weaponry... or like Jerry says, Let's Drink.

 

[Cobalt]

I get what you're saying, and perhaps you are right. I actually do like my Busse's for the most part, it's the exaggerated opinions disguised as facts that I object to - if we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that also. It would be nice to see some hard numbers though...

On this we can agree. I would love to see some charpy numbers as well. On all three busse steels for that matter. But they have never published them. I can't imagine they did not test the toughness before using the steel.

 

[sodak]

AS for me ducking the charpy test question, I am not Jerry, so I cannot tell him what to do, sorry.

Ankerson, who much manilla rope do you use for a typical cutting test on a long lasting steel?

Now THAT's a duck.

I think you are missing my point - or I'm a lousy communicator. If you want to agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. I like INFI, but don't love it. Lots of people obviously do. That's fine. Just don't try to state your opinion as fact, and I doubt that anyone will object. When people state things as fact, I want to see some independent verification.

As for the rope cutting, 3000 cuts would be 250 ft if you cut every inch. You could probably get a cut every half inch, but it likes to unravel as you go. But seriously, what does this prove? I promise you, I can find a steel that will go 5-10x farther without any trouble. It's not a "tough" steel, that's true, but this rope cutting gets brought up all the time as the ultimate test. Take a look at Ankerson's edge holding thread (which should be a sticky). In the coarse edge section, the top performer is CPM 10V at 64.5 HRC. That's my knife. Trust me, either slicing or push cutting, it's going to win, and it won't be a fair contest. You could probably snap the blade in your hands without any trouble, but it's a cutter, not a chopper.

As for all the other measures, I would like to see some industry standard testing, it's not a black art. You can look up most steels and compare them, as we all know, everything is a tradeoff.

INFI might very well be a good steel at a lot of things, but let's see some independent lab testing. No, you can't tell Jerry what to do, but you can ask. I'd actually be very surprised if this testing hasn't been done already. Since we've already established that INFI is not an existing steel but a new formulation, I have no doubt that the foundry and heat treaters pull a representative sample and test them.

PS - I was typing this as you posted, sorry, you beat me to it.

 

[rcb2000]

I think someone earlier in the thread asked about Busses ad challenge. There was one for the SHBM and one for the Basic which did everything just a little less. Here is the Basic 9 ad. Of course, the rope cutting part is incorrect as we all know it went to 2771 cuts.

I'm as far from an expert as it comes to metallurgy, and I couldn't read a charpy test to save my life,, but THESE are the things that I would judge a knife by. I think these are far closer to real life tests. Will my knife be able to dress a few deer without having to take it to anything more than a strop. Will that same blade chip if I cut into bone?
And after all that can I chop a few branches for a fire back at camp?
I know I can trust all that and MUCH more to my INFIdu.

 

[bodog]

Now THAT's a duck.

I think you are missing my point - or I'm a lousy communicator. If you want to agree to disagree, I'm fine with that. I like INFI, but don't love it. Lots of people obviously do. That's fine. Just don't try to state your opinion as fact, and I doubt that anyone will object. When people state things as fact, I want to see some independent verification.

As for the rope cutting, 3000 cuts would be 250 ft if you cut every inch. You could probably get a cut every half inch, but it likes to unravel as you go. But seriously, what does this prove? I promise you, I can find a steel that will go 5-10x farther without any trouble. It's not a "tough" steel, that's true, but this rope cutting gets brought up all the time as the ultimate test. Take a look at Ankerson's edge holding thread (which should be a sticky). In the coarse edge section, the top performer is CPM 10V at 64.5 HRC. That's my knife. Trust me, either slicing or push cutting, it's going to win, and it won't be a fair contest. You could probably snap the blade in your hands without any trouble, but it's a cutter, not a chopper.

As for all the other measures, I would like to see some industry standard testing, it's not a black art. You can look up most steels and compare them, as we all know, everything is a tradeoff.

INFI might very well be a good steel at a lot of things, but let's see some independent lab testing. No, you can't tell Jerry what to do, but you can ask. I'd actually be very surprised if this testing hasn't been done already. Since we've already established that INFI is not an existing steel but a new formulation, I have no doubt that the foundry and heat treaters pull a representative sample and test them.

PS - I was typing this as you posted, sorry, you beat me to it.

Why would a businessman ruin a good thing? The reputation is there. The fanbase is there. What he makes gets sold pretty quickly. Going for independent testing at this point means he stands to lose more than he gains. It's the up and comers that need to do the testing to unseat whoever they feel is on top, not the other way around. An alpha dog does whatever he does. He doesn't need to prove anything, not until the ones under him decide to buck him out of the top spot. Trying to act like you need to prove something means you need to prove something. He's getting by having already proved what he needs to to as many people as he needs to. Why upset the apple cart with strict testing that may disprove his reputation? That'd be the alpha wolf ripping his own teeth out and for what?

 

[bdmicarta]

Why would a businessman ruin a good thing? The reputation is there. The fanbase is there. What he makes gets sold pretty quickly.

If a business is selling their product, then they should be focusing on making more product. Until they aren't selling all of their product there is no reason to put extra effort into marketing.

Of course we are talking about the present. Things can change and customers can decide to go elsewhere. You never know what influences the general public and buyers, and what might cause them to change in the future. If a company is confident in the way they are going now, there is no reason to change. If they want to provide security for the future, they might want to think about covering all of their bases.

I was a partner in a small business and we were doing well. We didn't worry about the future, one of our clients changed their business and our little company failed so now I am an employee elsewhere. I knew what we should have done, or thought I knew what we should have done, but my other partners thought everything was fine and wouldn't make a change, so the company failed. This will probably never happen to Busse, but certainly could happen. There are a lot of very strong fans on this forum, but what percentage of his total business do we account for?

I read everything written about Busse knives and some of it starts to sound like the "snake oil" salemen of the past. I don't doubt that the steel is very good, but I wonder how it can be as much better than any other steel produced by anybody else in the world as the literature says it is. So I can see how people are suspicious. I'm an engineer so I want to see very detailed comparisons. If you start talking about how one knife carries more load at the blade/handle junction than another blade, I want to see all of the details of the comparison so I can double check the results and understand them myself. It is very difficult to make this kind of comparison because there are so many variables involved. Charpy testing at least removes the variables from toughness testing. In the engineering world there are standard methods of making tension test specimens and doing strength testing. When you get into sharpness testing it gets a lot more difficult. There is CATRA testing but I don't know how repeatable that is. And when you talk about the resistance of an edge to chipping or rolling I don't know of any tests anywhere close to standard.

 

[Cobalt]

Well, considering that busse knives are used harder and more often than anything comparable, jerry does not need advertising. Say what you want but not one of you does things with your brands that busse owners do with theirs. Fact of life. That is why I can put my steel where my mouth while others dont.

 

[rcb2000]

Well, considering that busse knives are ised harder and more often than anything comparable, jerry does not need advertising. Say what you want but not one of you does things with your brands that busse owners do with theirs. Fact of life. That is why I can put my steel where my mouth while others dont.

Well put, what's that saying?
Put up or,,, quit whining? No that's not how it goes....

 

[ocnLogan]

I think someone earlier in the thread asked about Busses ad challenge. There was one for the SHBM and one for the Basic which did everything just a little less. Here is the Basic 9 ad. Of course, the rope cutting part is incorrect as we all know it went to 2771 cuts.

Interesting graphic. Its kind of a personal pet peeve when graphics like this are produced without anything on the axis, or when the numbers shown aren't to scale with each other (like this makes it look like 7 is half of 10... which its not). I would have liked to have seen the bars at least correctly sized, as they're all laughably off, and whats more, they're sometimes laughably off in favor of Busse, and other times for the competitor . It just seems they could have actually made the bars the size they should have been with not much more effort :/.

And also, we have no idea what knife it was compared to (although it says "nearest production competitor", so presumably its not some junk blade, or at least we'd hope).

I get what you're saying, and perhaps you are right. I actually do like my Busse's for the most part, it's the exaggerated opinions disguised as facts that I object to - if we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that also. It would be nice to see some hard numbers though...

My opinion may be invalid (I don't own a busse or kin), but I agree with this above statement. I have no problem with reporting stats/objectively proven/obvious facts, but it is rather irksome how quickly it turns into something like "Busse is the best because AWESOME" statements.

As such, I will 100% say that Busse is the best at looking like a Busse. I will also continue to state that Busse and kin knives are among the toughest out there (because really we have no objective proof which is "best") and recommend them to people that seem to be in the market for that type of knife. As for myself, and presumably many others there are plenty of other knives that are "tough enough" for our uses that we will continue to use, which I also have no problem with.

And no offense but every time I see someone say the equivalent of "put my money where my mouth is", I cringe a little. As the knives they're talking about have unconditional lifetime warranties, they're literally risking nothing (other than some inconvenience to get a new one shipped out to you), and laying the "cost" on the manufacturer. So it sounds good... but they're not actually "putting your money where your mouth is", as no money of theirs is on the line so to speak. I get where they're coming from, when they say it, but I feel its rather easy to be flippant about throwing that out there when there is no real risk associated with it. Again, maybe that's why people presumably pay more for blades with unconditional warranties, so maybe thats just a "perk"? Anyway...

Again, that above wasn't an attack, just stating that the phrase is being misused.

And maybe I'm alone in this, but what makes really tough steels interesting to me is the potential ability to make a really thin/light blade, while still having it survive "normal" use. Not that I think Busse would ever make one like that with their current reputation/market segment, but personally I'd love to have something that was say... like an ESEE 3/Becker BK16 in 3v or INFI but make it much thinner. As long as it could still handle "normal" (for those knives) type of use/abuse, and be thinner/lighter, I'd be super interested in it. I know Busse makes some "thinner" smaller knives... but they're still not actually thin IIRC (.14in thick for the thinnest I can recall, but I may be wrong). It just seems that there is much more potential for those steels in smaller blades.

 

[Ankerson]

I really don't think anyone is saying Busse knives aren't good or even INFI isn't a good steel.

Having tested more Busse knives than most I can say they do what Jerry says they will and that is all that should matter.

Jerry never said that INFI is more than it really is, also never said that it is the ultimate in edge retention.

 

[AntDog]

Well put. I remember you being quite the Busse "fanboy" back in the day. I was starting to wonder what happened! :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

Well put. I remember you being quite the Busse "fanboy" back in the day. I was starting to wonder what happened! :thumbup:

I still am.

But my interests have changed as far as testing goes.

 

[metal0321]

Well technically cobalt is saying infi has better edge holding than 3v, that's false, at least in my uses. So cobalt is saying its number 1. Infi can't hold a candle to 3v cutting webbing, or skinning an elk, I should know I've used it extensively. I butcher several pigs a year, hunt every year, and skin plenty of animals. Infi doesn't hold up to that use, no where near 3v in my use. It's much easier to touch up, it's tougher, just doesn't have the edge retention plain and simple, neither does sr101, last year we butchered 2 cows, my swamp rats constantly needed a touch up skinning them, my fehrman held up much better. Just my experience, no clue where cobalt is getting that 3v doesn't hold an edge as good as infi.

And from another prospective from someone who processes game all year every year, INFI works wonderfully.