Brands comparable to busse

[bearcut]

A test I did several years ago comparing Strider S30V, Busse INFI, and Fehrman 3V.

After several years of using all these knives I still hold to my assessment.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/648410-Busse-vs-Fehrman-vs-Strider

 

[Cobalt]

So INFI made after 2000 is not as good? Are you talking about mod-INFI, or something else? Busse also made a run out of INFI around 60 or 62, IIRC. Remember the anorexic models? I have several of those knives, they didn't do well at all in my testing. But perhaps you are talking about something else...

Never sad that. I suggest you don't put words in others mouth. The older stuff is Rc harder that is a fact. I actually wish todays INFI was Rc'd higher than it is. But when you have people chopping cars and many other things that normally don't need chopping, with INFI, I can see why it is kept at 58-60. The anorexics came well after the ergos, so you did not have the higher hardness. Not sure where you got that info. I like the anorexics though, good knives. Better than the custom 3v knives I had that chipped out easily.

 

[shinyedges]

What custom knives in 3v did you have that chipped very easily? Genuinely curious as I've had no problems from production 3v, generally Custom makers get more out of the steel than production.

What material caused the chipping? Thank you.

Edit to add one more question, are you saying you have had multiple knives in 3v from custom makers chip very easily?

Did you contact the maker and tell them your intended use? They tailor hardness to the task its intended for...

Never sad that. I suggest you don't put words in others mouth. The older stuff is Rc harder that is a fact. I actually wish todays INFI was Rc'd higher than it is. But when you have people chopping cars and many other things that normally don't need chopping, with INFI, I can see why it is kept at 58-60. The anorexics came well after the ergos, so you did not have the higher hardness. Not sure where you got that info. I like the anorexics though, good knives. Better than the custom 3v knives I had that chipped out easily.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, with all do respect, you tested post 2000-INFI which is kept 2 Rc points below the original INFI run. I am willing to bet that the older INFI scores a lot higher than the newer INFI because of the 2 points. But with modern INFI you are absolutely correct. Now much of my INFI is the older INFI hence why my experience is different than yours in edge holding.

Wouldn't really matter much because all of the current models are too thick across the board.

So I really can't test them anyway.

Wouldn't really be a fair test to Busse.

Now if Jerry made something thin and around 4" so it would be a fair test for them that would be different, nothing really under 3.5" blade..... Think Spyderco Military geometry as a baseline......

But they don't.....

 

[zombieassassin]

Right now I am looking into buying a 3v knife. 3v is some tought stuff, INFI is tougher but harder to get. Now that Busse has put a halt to all custom makings and only has one chunk of INFI available through their site, I think I am on the hunt for a beastly blade out of CPM-3v. I'm thinking of going to Miller Bros Blades. ..anyone have any hard use reports on their blades?

 

[shinyedges]

I'm not sure where you get infi is tougher, for me they are in the same range of toughness. I have had 3 or 4 busse blades and pushed the limits on one of them and bent it, very tough blade. I have also done similar with 3v with no permanent bend, so I can say having used both and pushing the limits on both that I don't believe infi is tougher. BUT when a knife is .25 to .30 thick or more it is almost a given that the blade will be difficult to break, hell .30 440c would probably be tough as nails.


There are also other steels like z wear that supposedly rank tougher than 3v AND remain excellent edge retention. So check out that steel as well.

Until busse puts out numbers, it is rather difficult to show true data that its tougher than 3v or z wear IF its tougher at all.

Right now I am looking into buying a 3v knife. 3v is some tought stuff, INFI is tougher but harder to get. Now that Busse has put a halt to all custom makings and only has one chunk of INFI available through their site, I think I am on the hunt for a beastly blade out of CPM-3v. I'm thinking of going to Miller Bros Blades. ..anyone have any hard use reports on their blades?

 

[sodak]

Never sad that. I suggest you don't put words in others mouth. The older stuff is Rc harder that is a fact. I actually wish todays INFI was Rc'd higher than it is. But when you have people chopping cars and many other things that normally don't need chopping, with INFI, I can see why it is kept at 58-60. The anorexics came well after the ergos, so you did not have the higher hardness. Not sure where you got that info. I like the anorexics though, good knives. Better than the custom 3v knives I had that chipped out easily.

Then explain your 2000 comment so it's understandable.

Yes, I did have the higher hardness, they were Active Duties sold specifically spec'd at 60 or higher, and ground thinner. I got that information straight from Busse when I ordered the knife. Perhaps it's called something else, it's hard to keep all the "descriptions" and acronyms straight with Busse. At this point I don't really care what they called it, but it didn't have the carbides to keep up with D2 or any of my other slicers.

A lot of people at that time were using them for hunting knives, so I compared it to my Dozier K2. I sent both to Udtjim, and he agreed with my findings, but unfortunately died before sending them back, so that will give you a time frame of when they came out and when I tested them.

 

[zombieassassin]

Good to know shinyedges, I have also seen that Miller Bros Blades has Z-Wear as well. So from your experience Z-Wear is tougher than 3v? I thought they were pretty much the same just different makers? Please inform me. I love my Busse blades...but am in the market for another SHTF destructive device. The M8 Miller Bros has seems very tempting. I just want one about .375 thick.

 

[sodak]

I think this back and forth is going nowhere, so I'll summarize what I'm trying to say and back off.

I tested INFI several years ago that was optimized for cutting by both heat treat and geometry, and it did worse than D2 by a significant margin, over 20% IIRC. By extension, it will do even worse against M390, CPM M4, CPM S90V, etc. Just reference this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope

Now people are arguing that regular INFI blades (not optimized by heat treat or geometry) have a standing offer to beat anyone else in live competition. 3000 cuts or so. That's why I keep calling it a stunt - like someone walking into Gold's gym and loudly challenging everyone to beat his 50 bench press, or else they're scared. The powerlifters will laugh and go back to their workout.

When I bring this up, then the argument is that it's a bunch of tests, and an all-around "best" steel. Yet the testing referenced is a guy in a hockey mask beating on a knife with a sledgehammer or someone throwing their knife into a target.

Independent 3rd party testing to industry standards would answer all of these arguments. There are standard tests that can be done, and yes, they are expensive. So if the goal is to prove the strength and toughness of a steel, it's actually pretty easy to do. And a "big dog" in the knife industry has access, I'm sure, to these testing facilities, as well as the capital.

If the goal is marketing, or to create noise, then the mission has been accomplished. All this arguing doesn't prove anything one way or the other, it's all opinion and anecdotal evidence.

If you want to disagree with the above, fine, design your own testing and have at it. It is incumbent on the people making the claims to provide the evidence. But when opinion is presented as fact, don't be surprised when you are challenged.

All of the above is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but provide a good argument.

 

[jac_solar]

What is the difference between the test where the Infi did over 3000 cuts, and Ankerson's tests? In Ankerson's tests, the highest number of cuts was 2400 for CPM 10V. However, Infi, while the number of cuts isn't listed, is in a category with 154CM and 14C28N, which I'm assuming means that it probably did less than 500 cuts, which does not seem to indicate a steel that can easily do 3000 cuts on rope. So, what's up with that?

 

[Ankerson]

What is the difference between the test where the Infi did over 3000 cuts, and Ankerson's tests? In Ankerson's tests, the highest number of cuts was 2400 for CPM 10V. However, Infi, while the number of cuts isn't listed, is in a category with 154CM and 14C28N, which I'm assuming means that it probably did less than 500 cuts, which does not seem to indicate a steel that can easily do 3000 cuts on rope. So, what's up with that?

Difference between draw cutting (My testing) and push cutting (Shearing).

I actually have a custom in 10V in the works that is more of a harder use field knife.....

Once I get it if people want to see and buy me $1,000+ of rope I would be more than glad to shear cut with it, would likely do around 20,000 cuts or so....

 

[Czechmate]

This thread needs mo' pics... :thumbup:


New Battle Grade Team Gemini:

Some users of mine and one project SOD awaiting a hidden tang handle/guard. :thumbup:

 

[Cobalt]

Your comprehension skills are not so good. It was all about hardness. The knives you had did not have the same Rc as the older blades. It is only 2 points but in Ankersons testing 2 points makes a big difference.

Then explain your 2000 comment so it's understandable.

Yes, I did have the higher hardness, they were Active Duties sold specifically spec'd at 60 or higher, and ground thinner. I got that information straight from Busse when I ordered the knife. Perhaps it's called something else, it's hard to keep all the "descriptions" and acronyms straight with Busse. At this point I don't really care what they called it, but it didn't have the carbides to keep up with D2 or any of my other slicers.

A lot of people at that time were using them for hunting knives, so I compared it to my Dozier K2. I sent both to Udtjim, and he agreed with my findings, but unfortunately died before sending them back, so that will give you a time frame of when they came out and when I tested them.

 

[Cobalt]

Wouldn't really matter much because all of the current models are too thick across the board.

So I really can't test them anyway.

Wouldn't really be a fair test to Busse.

Now if Jerry made something thin and around 4" so it would be a fair test for them that would be different, nothing really under 3.5" blade..... Think Spyderco Military geometry as a baseline......

But they don't.....

Jim, the MUK is quite thin for any knife. That would be a good one for you to test.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, the MUK is quite thin for any knife. That would be a good one for you to test.

I have some things coming down the road to test.

 

[jac_solar]

Difference between draw cutting (My testing) and push cutting (Shearing).

Which would you say is more relevant to determining edge retention for regular use? How could a steel that is supposed to be the toughest on the market, or at least one of them, also beat out every other knife steel in terms of edge retention? I don't get it.

Let's say you use the exact same blades you used in the draw cuts for push cuts -- if Infi does 3000 push cuts, would 154CM and 14C28N do 3000ish push cuts as well, while CPM 10V would be in the 8000+ range? (Just as an example -- not exactly like that, but in an order like that.)

 

[Ankerson]

Which would you say is more relevant to determining edge retention for regular use? How could a steel that is supposed to be the toughest on the market, or at least one of them, also beat out every other knife steel in terms of edge retention? I don't get it.

Let's say you use the exact same blades you used in the draw cuts for push cuts -- if Infi does 3000 push cuts, would 154CM and 14C28N do 3000ish push cuts as well, while CPM 10V would be in the 8000+ range? (Just as an example -- not exactly like that, but in an order like that.)

For argument sake you can for the most part add a zero for shearing compared to draw cutting.

The force needed for shearing would be much more though, bigger knife so one could use 2 hands etc.

 

[shinyedges]

Hello, you must have missed my post where I asked you:

What custom knives in 3v did you have that chipped very easily? Genuinely curious as I've had no problems from production 3v, generally Custom makers get more out of the steel than production.

What material caused the chipping? Thank you.

Edit to add one more question, are you saying you have had multiple knives in 3v from custom makers chip very easily?

Did you contact the maker and tell them your intended use? They tailor hardness to the task its intended for...

You say you have had blades meaning plural , custom knives in 3v... that chipped very easily if what you say is true answering my questions should be easy.

Your comprehension skills are not so good. It was all about hardness. The knives you had did not have the same Rc as the older blades. It is only 2 points but in Ankersons testing 2 points makes a big difference.

 

[shinyedges]

I was reading some specs on 3v verse z wear and believe z wear had higher impact joules ... ill poke around when I get a minute and see what I can find.

I also read miller broblades prefer zwear to 3v as it performed better in there destruction testing. He'll you might call them up and get an answer right away.

I would like to try zwear out myself... its on the short list. But I LOVE my 3v ... edge retention on 3v is damn good.

Good to know shinyedges, I have also seen that Miller Bros Blades has Z-Wear as well. So from your experience Z-Wear is tougher than 3v? I thought they were pretty much the same just different makers? Please inform me. I love my Busse blades...but am in the market for another SHTF destructive device. The M8 Miller Bros has seems very tempting. I just want one about .375 thick.

 

[zombieassassin]

Thanks shiny.....I am definitely Miller Bros Blades bound ,but now to decide 3v or Z-Wear....or both...lol. Of those two, which do ya think is more corrosion resistant?