Hi man , am dingy ,some years ago i had asked you on "knife tests" that why not make a 1/4" thick 3v knife & donate it to noss ?
and you told me that you were ran out of 1/4" stock , man do you remember that ?
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- Thread starter Matt81818
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and you told me that you were ran out of 1/4" stock , man do you remember that ?
To be fair here, I don't think that sodak, or anyone else is stating that Busse knives are inferior in any way, nor any of their steels (if I'm wrong, please correct me on that). On the contrary, I think everyone is agreeing that everything is fine and good in the "functional" aspect of things.
Additionally, I don't even think he's asking for the mystical formula of INFI to be disclosed. He is just asking for third party industry standard tests to either a) be done or b) have the results released to the public.
Without any form of standardized testing, its hard to get a really accurate portrayal of any sort of "ranking". 3v is talked about a lot because from in many aspects it seems similar (tough, semi-stainless, pretty good edge holding), but I don't think that anyone would get mad if testing showed that any of those things were better or worse than INFI, just because each steel is different, and of course has their ideal uses.
I think with the absence of those types of tests, and with many Busse fans portraying them as "the best" many get weary of stating that while they're undoubtably good, the evidence is somewhat circumstantial and then being hounded about it. The fact that the Busse subforum has a stickied thread called "The Busse superiority thread" may indicate a bit of the type of attitude that seems to cause all this disagreement.
But what do I know, I'm just some guy on the internet :/.
Additionally, I don't even think he's asking for the mystical formula of INFI to be disclosed. He is just asking for third party industry standard tests to either a) be done or b) have the results released to the public.
Without any form of standardized testing, its hard to get a really accurate portrayal of any sort of "ranking". 3v is talked about a lot because from in many aspects it seems similar (tough, semi-stainless, pretty good edge holding), but I don't think that anyone would get mad if testing showed that any of those things were better or worse than INFI, just because each steel is different, and of course has their ideal uses.
I think with the absence of those types of tests, and with many Busse fans portraying them as "the best" many get weary of stating that while they're undoubtably good, the evidence is somewhat circumstantial and then being hounded about it. The fact that the Busse subforum has a stickied thread called "The Busse superiority thread" may indicate a bit of the type of attitude that seems to cause all this disagreement.
But what do I know, I'm just some guy on the internet :/.
Thank you, you summed it up perfectly.
Gravelface
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I love Bladeforums.
That is all.
That is all.
Wow, kind of crazy that Dan Keffeler says he'd be interested in a competition, and rather than try to set one up, people continue to bicker with each other. Whatever the results, it'd be pretty cool to see a Dan K blade and INFI go head to head in some standardized trials.
bodog
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I was thinking the same thing. Good Lord, Dan Keffeler stands up and says he wants to do it and people aren't screaming about it? WTF? People do realize who Dan K. is, right? Holy crap, Dan's Vanadis 4E or 3V vs INFI?
Can someone please make this happen?
I vote for an 8 inch blade length with a drop point. .200" max stock width. 2" height. Angles of the primary and secondary bevels the same for both blades. Hell, everything the exact same except INFI as done by Busse and whatever steel Dan chooses and done by him.
Rope cutting, Charpy card cutting, 4 x 4 cutting, hanging rope cutting, boar chest plate stabbing, bend tests, and vice/sledgehammer pounding at the end!
It'd be one hell of a blade battle!
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trevitrace
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Crucible steel said that they had analyzed "INFI" steel many years ago. They determined that it was A8 Modified. They said they won't produce it. They buy theirs from China.
They were very forthright with their composition analysis. I appreciate that kind of honesty.
Meanwhile, after many years now, I still prefer 3V and a few other steels to "INFI" simply because they are more abrasion resistant, while being just as tough as the infi woodchipper formula. I guess I agree with Mastiff on this issue.
They were very forthright with their composition analysis. I appreciate that kind of honesty.
Meanwhile, after many years now, I still prefer 3V and a few other steels to "INFI" simply because they are more abrasion resistant, while being just as tough as the infi woodchipper formula. I guess I agree with Mastiff on this issue.
trevitrace
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I had a similar experience quite recently. So, this loud-mouth forester came by last weekend spouting off about us needing to clear cut a couple acres, promotes growth, blah blah blah...
Got out the old BM-e, strapped a yolk on the dog Babe the Blue Ox style and knocked that job out lickety split!
Got out the old BM-e, strapped a yolk on the dog Babe the Blue Ox style and knocked that job out lickety split!
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Gravelface, I don't need pictures. I certainly believe you. When 3V and Cruwear rust they can pit. I've seen it in older vascowear blades and old steel sheets sitting around for a while. I've never rusted any of mine though and I have about 8 3V knives and probably 7 or 8 Vascowear/Cruwear/CPMCruwear/PD#1/Z wear knives. I've seen stainless steels corrode and carbon steel knives stay new looking. It depends not only on the care they get but the corrosive stuff they come in contact with.
Neither Infi or 3V corrode as fast as 1095 or Super Blue IMO. Still , I can put a knife in position to corrode and have stainless steel corrode and 1095 not. If I was going to store my knife in a bag in my trunk, for instance, I would clean it off removing anything corrosive including fingerprints. I'd then coat it with paste wax to protect the blade. I have a KaBar that stayed in my trunk for 10 years that has no corrosion on it at all. Most of us have seen 60-100 year old knives made of carbon steel that had no corrosion on them. Many factors affect corrosion resistance and I have seen no real difference between the steels in my collection made of the different steels we are talking about. A2 is somewhat similar but with a little less corrosion resistance. O-1 is more like 1095 or a bit worse depending on heat treat and finish. D2 is much more corrosion resistant but it can vary too depending on factors.
I treat all my knives to the same standards and they all pretty much act the same. The H1 is a true exception. The worst? Either Hitachi White or Rex 20/M62 with a stone wash finish. Had a thousand dollar custom in that with a fingerprint that stayed etched into the steel after an hour or so of it being on the blade.
Joe
Neither Infi or 3V corrode as fast as 1095 or Super Blue IMO. Still , I can put a knife in position to corrode and have stainless steel corrode and 1095 not. If I was going to store my knife in a bag in my trunk, for instance, I would clean it off removing anything corrosive including fingerprints. I'd then coat it with paste wax to protect the blade. I have a KaBar that stayed in my trunk for 10 years that has no corrosion on it at all. Most of us have seen 60-100 year old knives made of carbon steel that had no corrosion on them. Many factors affect corrosion resistance and I have seen no real difference between the steels in my collection made of the different steels we are talking about. A2 is somewhat similar but with a little less corrosion resistance. O-1 is more like 1095 or a bit worse depending on heat treat and finish. D2 is much more corrosion resistant but it can vary too depending on factors.
I treat all my knives to the same standards and they all pretty much act the same. The H1 is a true exception. The worst? Either Hitachi White or Rex 20/M62 with a stone wash finish. Had a thousand dollar custom in that with a fingerprint that stayed etched into the steel after an hour or so of it being on the blade.
Joe
trevitrace
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I would love to see how INFI and SR-101 stack up against CPM-3V and Vanadis4E heat treated to the best spec by Peters heat treat...
IMO both 3V and V4E will have better edge retention due to the higher wear resistance and the capability to be heat treat to higher hardness (higher strength) while still remain a significant toughness.
Therefore 3V and V4E can be run much harder and thinner than most steel in the market.
Dan Keffeler usually run his edge super thin on most of his work... as he always seek for the best steel with the best metallurgy to withstand "as thin as possible" edge for the competition chopper...
His latest cutting competition blade is like 0.008" thick behind the edge... which more like 10 time thinner than most Busse blade...
From my point of view INFI is not the steel that will hold up well in very thin cross section....however, it will be a much tougher steel than any thing mentioned though..
This pic demonstrate the superior toughness of INFI very well.
The Busse is SAR4 with FFG and 0.22" thick INFI... the another knife is K9 Dingo made of 0.25" thick CPM-3V heat treat by Paul Bos to 59-60RC
I know geometry play big role in this kind of destructive test but at least you get the idea.
IMO both 3V and V4E will have better edge retention due to the higher wear resistance and the capability to be heat treat to higher hardness (higher strength) while still remain a significant toughness.
Therefore 3V and V4E can be run much harder and thinner than most steel in the market.
Dan Keffeler usually run his edge super thin on most of his work... as he always seek for the best steel with the best metallurgy to withstand "as thin as possible" edge for the competition chopper...
His latest cutting competition blade is like 0.008" thick behind the edge... which more like 10 time thinner than most Busse blade...
From my point of view INFI is not the steel that will hold up well in very thin cross section....however, it will be a much tougher steel than any thing mentioned though..
This pic demonstrate the superior toughness of INFI very well.
The Busse is SAR4 with FFG and 0.22" thick INFI... the another knife is K9 Dingo made of 0.25" thick CPM-3V heat treat by Paul Bos to 59-60RC
I know geometry play big role in this kind of destructive test but at least you get the idea.
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bodog
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I think it's funny that a dude posted his own experiences putting the two into some rough use and finding a knife made by Dan Keffeler was a pretty clear winner over a Busse and all these guys come out of the woodwork talking about how a Busse performs better because it's easier to sharpen in the field. So no matter what, no one can win. If there was a bend test and a Busse took a set and the other blade didn't you'd have guys jumping up saying that sometimes someone needs a boomerang out in the field and they only have their knife to make one. If the Busse broke then sometimes you need to make your knife shorter. Always a win for Busse.
Busse laid the challenge out saying no one can beat his knives in the various tests he put his knives through. Keffeler said he's up for the challenge. Keffeler is the blade sports champion for two years running and he's pretty well acknowledged for heat treating his stuff very well. Every time someone brings up a knife challenging a Busse people jump up and defend Busse tooth and nail making ridiculous excuses. Busse then comes on and says no one is willing to stand up to the challenge and it's been that way for 14 years. So according to his statements the first public acceptance of the Busse challenge comes from the two time blade sports champion. And Busse fans aren't jumping at the chance to see Busse and INFI spank the blade sports champion and 3V/4V?
That proves quite a bit about Busse if he doesn't accept the challenge from Keffeler and that says a lot about Busse fans if they're ignoring the fact that someone is stepping up to the plate.
There's only been a couple posts about it since Keffeler publicly accepted the challenge. People are ignoring it. I find that hilarious. Well, I guess Busse fans' faith is lacking or they'd be cheering and jumping at the chance to see this happen. That's a big hole Keffeler just blasted in the dogma surrounding Bussedom. And if youre a knife fan, that's pretty damned significant.
The only thing I want now is a fixed blade from Dan Keffeler that I can actually carry and use everyday.
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I'm pretty sure Dan Keffeler is three time blade sports champion...
His work and his knowledge about metallurgy is the best among the best... He always work hard to find better steel, better heat treat protocol, better geometry, better design and everything that will lead to any improvement in performance...
As far as I'm a Busse fan, I have to admit that Busse has almost zero chance against Dan Keffeler in proper cutting test... Unless it was about a destruction test which are pretty much useless...
Just like no way in this world any high-end sport car gonna do against the latest Ferrari F1 on Nürburgring track...
His work and his knowledge about metallurgy is the best among the best... He always work hard to find better steel, better heat treat protocol, better geometry, better design and everything that will lead to any improvement in performance...
As far as I'm a Busse fan, I have to admit that Busse has almost zero chance against Dan Keffeler in proper cutting test... Unless it was about a destruction test which are pretty much useless...
Just like no way in this world any high-end sport car gonna do against the latest Ferrari F1 on Nürburgring track...