Carbon vs Stainless Steel

buckfynn said:
So we have gone from a person with a PHD explaining the various differences of carbon and stainless steel using micrographs to a wing nut being able to tell the difference between the two by taste testing? Given the choice between Larrin and cbrstar, I'll pick Larrin every time for knife advice. And I call total BS on Cbrstar claiming to able tell the distinction between carbon and stainless by such foolishness as feel and taste testing.
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You need to try the taste thing before passing judgement , otherwise you are just spreading your ignorance . Or talk to someone who has experience with old carbon kitchen knives and cast iron . Of course your sense of olfaction must be intact . :rolleyes:
 
cbrstar said:
This is supposed to be a discussion. Now I shared my perspective and personal experience. Just because you don't agree with it and don't have the same experience you've resorted to the logical fallacy of ad hominem by suggesting things like I'm a troll or wingnut etc instead of providing an actual counter argument.

So go and take Grampa's old knife and at least taste test it with some fruit. Or place it on your tongue (use the flat dull side...sorry but in your case I feel the need to give that warning). And come back with a counter argument other then Larrin is your greatest BFF ever.
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I don't know you or Larrin, but when it comes to any knowledge concerning knives, I'll chose fact based metallurgy over some ridiculous superstition every time.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
With Opinels I can. The carbon ones have an orange-y stain on the handle, while the stainless ones just have a clear-coat. :D

And yeah, no one can tell carbon from stainless steel by how it feels in the hand. If you handed folks two pieces of steel with the same surface finish, it would be impossible to tell by feel which one was stainless. But maybe if you held them long enough one would start rusting. :D :D :D
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I think some folks should look closer themselves before dismissing another’s senses and experience as placebo marketing. :] 10.5%+ chromium added to steel changes the look and feel of the alloy. Changing the chemical composition of an alloy by a large margin like that will noticeably change an alloy. There are numerous examples of this, it’s just perhaps more subtle in iron alloys.

Of course, the ones who dance are thought to be insane, by those who can’t hear the music! XD
 
I'm a chemist and appreciate the fascinating details that Larrin has put together on various topics.
Regarding the "zero carbon" steel, it is probably better to call it "low carbon" or "ultra low carbon", understanding that the trace amounts (ppm levels) present aren't contributing to the engineered properties here.
(It is perhaps worth noting that ppm levels of impurities (called doping) can have profound effects on for example electronic properties of some materials).
Regarding the differences between carbon and stainless steel that cbrstar claims to sense, I don't write this off as complete nonsense. I have a paring knife (patina covered A2 carbon steel) on my desk that has a different feel (and yes taste) than my Henckel steak knife which has a highly polished stainless finish. I attribute this mainly to the finish and the oxide and other residues on the paring knife, but there is indeed a difference.
 
I think the big difference is simply how carbon steel looks and feels. It just feels heavier and more expensive, where as stainless can look and feel light and chintzy.
All my stainless steel knives over the years to me IMHO just felt more flimsy then my carbon knives.
I can't really describe it but higher the carbon the more "silky" it feels to me.
It's not a placebo effect, heck take a old carbon knife and lick it then lick a stainless steel knife they even taste different so why wouldn't they feel different?
That's possible, but you don't even need to lick it. Just try cutting some fruit with a carbon knife and the fruit can taste a little different. Is it the steel or a chemical reaction from the patina?
So go and take Grampa's old knife and at least taste test it with some fruit. Or place it on your tongue
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The first claim was the carbon steel is "heavier and more expensive." I responded to that claim as it is objectively false.
The second claim was that carbon steel is more "silky." I did not respond to that as I don't know if cbrstar is referring to hand feel, sharpening, cutting, etc.
Next was that they taste different, and then the comment that food tastes different after cutting with it. That is different than the first two claims. Carbon steel is more reactive than stainless steel and surface reactions being left on the food is not outside of the realm of possibility.
 
They taste different. Seriously, just put the damn knives in your mouth and taste them.

Edit: I just licked a 52100 knife and a 400 series stainless steel knife. Way different from each other.
 
Mecha said:
I think some folks should look closer themselves before dismissing another’s senses and experience as placebo marketing. :] 10.5%+ chromium added to steel changes the look and feel of the alloy. Changing the chemical composition of an alloy by a large margin like that will noticeably change an alloy. There are numerous examples of this, it’s just perhaps more subtle in iron alloys.

Of course, the ones who dance are thought to be insane, by those who can’t hear the music! XD
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You could easily run a double-blind test of this and I can just about guarantee you that even VERY experienced people would not be able to tell the difference by feel. There can be slight differences in luster with different steels, but it's highly unlikely that people would be able to tell which was which reliably by sight alone beyond saying "they look an almost imperceptibly tiny bit different".

Same knife, one carbon, one stainless. I'm not saying which is which. :)

41530395_10216687269962590_2071892721806606336_o.jpg
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
You could easily run a double-blind test of this and I can just about guarantee you that even VERY experienced people would not be able to tell the difference by feel. There can be slight differences in luster with different steels, but it's highly unlikely that people would be able to tell which was which reliably by sight alone beyond saying "they look an almost imperceptibly tiny bit different".

Same knife, one carbon, one stainless. I'm not saying which is which. :)

41530395_10216687269962590_2071892721806606336_o.jpg
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lemme lick 'um and I'll tell ya :eek::D
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
You could easily run a double-blind test of this and I can just about guarantee you that even VERY experienced people would not be able to tell the difference by feel. There can be slight differences in luster with different steels, but it's highly unlikely that people would be able to tell which was which reliably by sight alone beyond saying "they look an almost imperceptibly tiny bit different".

Same knife, one carbon, one stainless. I'm not saying which is which. :)

41530395_10216687269962590_2071892721806606336_o.jpg
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Of course I’d guess the bottom one is the stainless one, but it’s probably a trick question! XD

Hard to tell in a photo, without being able to feel it, and look closely at the light being reflected. And that’s the key, to look at that luster, the light dancing over the surface. The alloys do look different, the hardest part is knowing which one is which.

The ‘feel’ of the alloys differs, among other ways, in minute resonances as you run your fingers over the surface. To me, the light luster is the more obvious tell due to the surfaces usually being polished somewhat.

Yes I would certainly say it’s harder to tell the difference between iron alloys than say, copper alloys or even titanium alloys, but it’s there.

The color change differences during decalescense and recalescense are also so subtle that many could claim they are indiscernable yet nevertheless, they exist and with careful observation over time become rather blatant.

It’s like developing a taste for whiskey.
 
Mecha said:
They taste different. Seriously, just put the damn knives in your mouth and taste them.

Edit: I just licked a 52100 knife and a 400 series stainless steel knife. Way different from each other.
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The blood from either is the same , however .
FortyTwoBlades said:
You could easily run a double-blind test of this and I can just about guarantee you that even VERY experienced people would not be able to tell the difference by feel. There can be slight differences in luster with different steels, but it's highly unlikely that people would be able to tell which was which reliably by sight alone beyond saying "they look an almost imperceptibly tiny bit different".

Same knife, one carbon, one stainless. I'm not saying which is which. :)

41530395_10216687269962590_2071892721806606336_o.jpg
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How about after they've seen substantial use and have a nice mature patina . Might be some textural change ? Many older people will testify to the smell of high carbon and cast iron from kitchen or camp cooking . Young know-nothings can laugh all you want . Ignorance surely is bliss ! :rolleyes:
 
Mecha said:
Of course I’d guess the bottom one is the stainless one, but it’s probably a trick question! XD

Hard to tell in a photo, without being able to feel it, and look closely at the light being reflected. And that’s the key, to look at that luster, the light dancing over the surface. The alloys do look different, the hardest part is knowing which one is which.

The ‘feel’ of the alloys differs, among other ways, in minute resonances as you run your fingers over the surface. To me, the light luster is the more obvious tell due to the surfaces usually being polished somewhat.

Yes I would certainly say it’s harder to tell the difference between iron alloys than say, copper alloys or even titanium alloys, but it’s there.

The color change differences during decalescense and recalescense are also so subtle that many could claim they are indiscernable yet nevertheless, they exist and with careful observation over time become rather blatant.

It’s like developing a taste for whiskey.
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I'll let it simmer for a while so other folks have a chance to guess if they'd like. Will post the answer tomorrow. :)
 
I can tell the difference between carbon and stainless steel by taste.... but that was conflated with being able to feel, by hand, a difference in density. Yes carbon and stainless taste different, no that does not corroborate a claim that one can "feel the difference in density".

I say I can taste a difference between Coke and Pepsi, that does not mean I can tell the difference by sticking my fingers in Coke vs Pepsi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
 
IMG_0393.jpg
(pic borrowed from cult of Mac)

Hmm I dunno they look exactly the same... (Sorry that was me being sarcastic)
 
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