Carbon vs Stainless Steel

[Mecha]

(pic borrowed from cult of Mac)

Hmm I dunno they look exactly the same... (Sorry that was me being sarcastic)

I mean that even with the same fresh polish, there is a slight difference that can be seen.

 

[marcinek]

I think the big difference is simply how carbon steel looks and feels. It just feels heavier and more expensive, where as stainless can look and feel light and chintzy.

That is your claim. Nothing about taste, nothing about color...you claimed carbon steel feels heavier. Are you backing off that claim?

 

[cbrstar]

I mean that even with the same fresh polish, there is a slight difference that can be seen.

Exactly, and I could be wrong but to me if something is truly indistinguishable then they would be indistinguishable over their entire lifespan which clearly they are not.

That is your claim. Nothing about taste, nothing about color...you claimed carbon steel feels heavier. Are you backing off that claim?

Well I'm not sure if it was you or someone else posted about the density and it did get me thinking. I realized that there could be other factors that might be skewing my perception like blade thickness.

 

[Yonose]

Elemental iron is denser than chromium, but I’ve read that stainless steels are denser(and thus heavier if of equal dimensions) though I’m not sure why or if this is always the case. My carbon steel knives are much heavier than my stainless ones, but it’s obviously because they are much larger in almost every case.

 

[Natlek]

They taste different. Seriously, just put the damn knives in your mouth and taste them.

Edit: I just licked a 52100 knife and a 400 series stainless steel knife. Way different from each other.

And they smell different , too .By the smell I will easy guess which one is carbon...............

 

[marcinek]

Well I'm not sure if it was you or someone else posted about the density and it did get me thinking. I realized that there could be other factors that might be skewing my perception like blade thickness.

So is there a connection between blade thickness and "silkiness"?

I can't really describe it but higher the carbon the more "silky" it feels to me. The best way to describe it is take a antique nickle coin and take a modern one and they feel completely different.

You can call BS on it all you want. But I'm not the only person like this out there.

 

[stiletto100]

Larrin, thank you for your educational contribution to the forum. I feel that I understand the real story better. Carbon has its place , but then so does steel in these interesting times.

 

[Natlek]

Elemental iron is denser than chromium, but I’ve read that stainless steels are denser(and thus heavier if of equal dimensions) though I’m not sure why or if this is always the case. My carbon steel knives are much heavier than my stainless ones, but it’s obviously because they are much larger in almost every case.

Density is more to do with atomic packing and atomic distances. . The difference will be to do with the alloying elements added to steel

Table 1
Materials Sorted By Category Then Density
Category Material Density
Metal Steel, tool 7.715
Metal Wrought Iron 7.75
Metal Carbon Tool Steel 7.82
Metal Steel, cold-drawn 7.83
Metal Carbon Steel 7.84
Metal Steel, C1020, HR 7.85
Metal Pure Iron 7.86
Metal Soft Steel (0.06% C) 7.87
Metal Stainless Steel, 304 8.03
Metal Stainless 18Cr-8Ni 8.

 

[Yonose]

Density is more to do with atomic packing and atomic distances. . The difference will be to do with the alloying elements added to steel

Table 1
Materials Sorted By Category Then Density
Category Material Density
Metal Steel, tool 7.715
Metal Wrought Iron 7.75
Metal Carbon Tool Steel 7.82
Metal Steel, cold-drawn 7.83
Metal Carbon Steel 7.84
Metal Steel, C1020, HR 7.85
Metal Pure Iron 7.86
Metal Soft Steel (0.06% C) 7.87
Metal Stainless Steel, 304 8.03
Metal Stainless 18Cr-8Ni 8.

So adding chromium alters the composition of the finished steel, making it denser than the sum of the added elements. This makes sense, since elements aren’t really “added” but rather multiplied and divided. I know that sounds simplistic, but it’s been many years since I’ve done chemical equations. Also, the temperatures involved certainly alter the properties as well.

 

[Revolverrodger]

While your at it you should sprinkle a little bit of that "Placebo Marketing" on your personality...(Sorry I know that was a cheap shot but I couldn't resist lol)

But let me quote some your article here "You can see the stark difference in carbide structure by comparing the white particles between 440C and O1. 440C and 154CM have relatively large carbides" There's people who don't need a microscope but can feel that difference with touch, and it's like that with wood, cloth, and endless other materials. I can't really describe it but higher the carbon the more "silky" it feels to me. The best way to describe it is take a antique nickle coin and take a modern one and they feel completely different.

You can call BS on it all you want. But I'm not the only person like this out there.

I take it science wasn’t your strongest topic back in school...

 

[cbrstar]

(Pic borrowed from "The Gourmet Sportsman)

(Pic borrowed from the learned Gentlemen)

Just to elaborate on what I said earlier.

Many of you have said that the two metals are indistinguishable from each other, and clearly from the above pictures that isn't true. Of course you can temporarily make them appear similar but for them to be truly indistinguishable they would have to be like that through out the entire life span of the product. A great example of this is Art! Where over time many fakes do not go through the same chemical ageing process as an original and that's how they are found out. I know one of you will say what does art have to do with this? Simply over time one knife goes though a chemical change the other doesn't, and guess what a knife is ART. The fact that you are trying to state they are the same and you can't tell the difference just shows your ignorance.

I take it science wasn’t your strongest topic back in school...

Hmm all the science stuff was me quoting my new BBF's Larrins article, I can't tell if your trying to diss him or you simply can't read?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

NO ONE disputes that once carbon steel has oxidized that you can clearly tell the difference. If you think anyone has said that, I'm afraid that you're gravely mistaken. But when surface finish is identical, they are barely distinguishable, and not to such a degree that even a skilled observer can reliably guess which is which by appearance.

 

[cbrstar]

With Opinels I can. The carbon ones have an orange-y stain on the handle, while the stainless ones just have a clear-coat.

And yeah, no one can tell carbon from stainless steel by how it feels in the hand. If you handed folks two pieces of steel with the same surface finish, it would be impossible to tell by feel which one was stainless.

So you have gone saying they are not distinguishable to...

they are barely distinguishable

 

[Revolverrodger]

People who can distinguish a carbon vs stainless blade through different mass have very special powers

 

[Joshua1973]

I prefer stainless. Own and like a few Carbon steel blades. But Stainless is pretty much putting Carbon to the way of the dinosaur.

 

[Yonose]

I prefer stainless. Own and like a few Carbon steel blades. But Stainless is pretty much putting Carbon to the way of the dinosaur.

Once they develop one that has the toughness of s7, I will concede. I do own a 9” 440C blade knife by Entrek USA that I’ve been happy with.

 

[Joshua1973]

Once they develop one that has the toughness of s7, I will concede.

It will happen and they have come very close to it. I like 440C very well. I also like D2 in my folder. Carbon in my environment is hard to maintain.

 

[Uncle Timbo]

I prefer stainless. Own and like a few Carbon steel blades. But Stainless is pretty much putting Carbon to the way of the dinosaur.

Not in my eyes. I love the way carbon steel shows her age and holds an edge. I just bought a knife made by ML Knives. A Kephart, done up in 1095, with a patterned patina. Black walnut slabs.
Matt made this thing look like ol Horace himself might of carried it.
They don't get no purtier than this.
I also have some in 3V, A2, and S30V that are great knives...but I LOVE carbon. You all that have some carbon steel knives and don't like em....just send em to ol Timbo. I'll give them a good home.

 

[brownshoe]

Since we're discussing BS vs. science, per the article's source material, of the one's I've met or read, there's a lot of BSers in that list and not one metallurgist. The references:
[1] Russell, A.G. (2018, July 20). Phone interview.
[2] Bagwell, Bill. (2018, July 20). Phone interview.
[3] https://knifemakersguild.com/history.php
[4] Hibben, Gil and Wes. (2018, July 21). Phone interview.
[5] http://www.hibbenknives.com/Gil-Hibben
[6] http://www.americanbladesmith.com/index.php?section=pages&id=117
[7] http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Testing/JS Test FINAL 4-24-2010.pdf
[8] Fikes, Jimmy. (2018, July 23). Phone interview.
[9] Warner, Ken. Knives,’84. DBI Books, 1983.
[10] Henry, D.E. Collins Machetes and Bowies, 1845-1965. Krause Publications, 1995.

The simple fact is that stainless steel contains carbon and is carbon steel. Some stainless is even high carbon steel. I learned this years ago when I first started learning about knives and talking to knife makers at shows.

Me: "Do you use carbon or stainless steel?"
Old Maker: "Well son, stainless steel contains carbon or else it wouldn't be steel."

Per taste, the human tongue is very sensitive, we all know that, unless you smoke

 

[Yonose]

It will happen and they have come very close to it. I like 440C very well. I also like D2 in my folder. Carbon in my environment is hard to maintain.

What are you thinking of that has come close? I would love to try it. 12c27 is tough, but not that tough! S7 has 3.3% Chromium and is probably the toughest steel used in large knives or swords. I don’t know whether the chromium gives the steel any stain resistance—I have to keep mine oiled after use in the humid summers. D2 is perfect for a folder, but I also like high vanadium stainless in small blades.