Carothers and Guns

[M67]

Six years old huh? It looks like I've got my work cut out for my boys birthday next year.

Is there anything that you guys recommend to do between now and when he goes shooting with Dad next year?

If you shoot a lot, get a silencer, seriously. I got my first one in 2012 and I started to shoot way more and while always loving shooting, I found a way to love it more and have sold several guns for the sole fact I can't shoot them suppressed.

Plus shooting suppressed makes teaching new people way easier because you're not constantly having to mess with removing ear pro or yelling at someone so they can hear (which while you might not be yelling at your child, you're just talking loud enough so they can hear, they still might think they're doing something wrong). Plus with eye protection on I always hated ear muffs squeezing everything on my head, and a lot of kids have issues with ear plugs

You can talk to them in a normal tone of voice, plus with the dead thud of a standard velocity/subsonic 22 and the ting while hitting a steel target, they may find it much more fun.

Also I've known a lot of "gun people" who still think silencers are stupid/waste of money/for hitmen (shooting people), and all the other BS stories and not realizing they're hearing protection, fairly normally used in other countries, and for hunting aspect gives you the chance at multiple shots. If you're a gun person you get kids used to guns early right? Teach them to respect them and how to handle them, normalize them so they learn they're not evil; to a ton of people silencers are still "taboo/evil" which shouldn't be the case at all.

M67 That little Charger is gorgeous!

Thanks. Thought it would be a project to do over time (next couple months) but got anxious and did it within a week. Tactical Solutions receiver, Enoch Industries Odin chassis, Kidd 6.5" barrel and single stage trigger, Sig folding brace (may SBR it). With the Sig brace the hinge sits too low and hits your hand, so you have to mount it upside down and rotate the brace and make it a right side folder instead of a left side. The SB Tactical folding brace doesn't have that issue cause the hinge system is lower profile, but upon handling the hinge is a lot weaker and not attractive machining wise, plus the whole brace is polymer while the Sig support is aluminum.

 

[betzner]

I've known a lot of "gun people" who still think silencers are stupid/waste of money/for hitmen (shooting people), and all the other BS stories and not realizing they're hearing protection, fairly normally used in other countries, and for hunting aspect gives you the chance at multiple shots. If you're a gun person you get kids used to guns early right? Teach them to respect them and how to handle them, normalize them so they learn they're not evil; to a ton of people silencers are still "taboo/evil" which shouldn't be the case at all.

Those "other countries" to which you refer don't have nearly the number of firearms on the street as does the US, so (respectfully), the suggestion that they be readily available is not just wishful thinking, but IMHO, wrongful thinking.

 

[M67]

Those "other countries" to which you refer don't have nearly the number of firearms on the street as does the US, so (respectfully), the suggestion that they be readily available is not just wishful thinking, but IMHO, wrongful thinking.

They don't have the numbers we do no, but in those countries the silencer is a non taxed unregulated accessory that makes it less harmful for the shooter and for the game they're hunting and other animals around the shooter. It's a consideration thing.

Since cans have had a $200 PER tax on them since 1934 here, there's a ton of people who haven't been subjected to them outside of what they see in the movies and there's still as much misinformation/mis-knowledge about them as in 1934 which is why they're regulated in the first place

I take it you don't like silencers?

 

[1AbominAble1]

— I couldn’t figure out how to add the quote-
Consider this a practice post.

 

[1AbominAble1]

If you shoot a lot, get a silencer, seriously. I got my first one in 2012 and I started to shoot way more and while always loving shooting, I found a way to love it more and have sold several guns for the sole fact I can't shoot them suppressed.

Plus shooting suppressed makes teaching new people way easier because you're not constantly having to mess with removing ear pro or yelling at someone so they can hear (which while you might not be yelling at your child, you're just talking loud enough so they can hear, they still might think they're doing something wrong). Plus with eye protection on I always hated ear muffs squeezing everything on my head, and a lot of kids have issues with ear plugs

You can talk to them in a normal tone of voice, plus with the dead thud of a standard velocity/subsonic 22 and the ting while hitting a steel target, they may find it much more fun.

Also I've known a lot of "gun people" who still think silencers are stupid/waste of money/for hitmen (shooting people), and all the other BS stories and not realizing they're hearing protection, fairly normally used in other countries, and for hunting aspect gives you the chance at multiple shots. If you're a gun person you get kids used to guns early right? Teach them to respect them and how to handle them, normalize them so they learn they're not evil; to a ton of people silencers are still "taboo/evil" which shouldn't be the case at all.




Thanks. Thought it would be a project to do over time (next couple months) but got anxious and did it within a week. Tactical Solutions receiver, Enoch Industries Odin chassis, Kidd 6.5" barrel and single stage trigger, Sig folding brace (may SBR it). With the Sig brace the hinge sits too low and hits your hand, so you have to mount it upside down and rotate the brace and make it a right side folder instead of a left side. The SB Tactical folding brace doesn't have that issue cause the hinge system is lower profile, but upon handling the hinge is a lot weaker and not attractive machining wise, plus the whole brace is polymer while the Sig support is aluminum.

I couldn’t agree with the above statement more!

 

[ErocSD]

If you shoot a lot, get a silencer, seriously. I got my first one in 2012 and I started to shoot way more and while always loving shooting, I found a way to love it more and have sold several guns for the sole fact I can't shoot them suppressed.

Plus shooting suppressed makes teaching new people way easier because you're not constantly having to mess with removing ear pro or yelling at someone so they can hear (which while you might not be yelling at your child, you're just talking loud enough so they can hear, they still might think they're doing something wrong). Plus with eye protection on I always hated ear muffs squeezing everything on my head, and a lot of kids have issues with ear plugs

You can talk to them in a normal tone of voice, plus with the dead thud of a standard velocity/subsonic 22 and the ting while hitting a steel target, they may find it much more fun.

Also I've known a lot of "gun people" who still think silencers are stupid/waste of money/for hitmen (shooting people), and all the other BS stories and not realizing they're hearing protection, fairly normally used in other countries, and for hunting aspect gives you the chance at multiple shots. If you're a gun person you get kids used to guns early right? Teach them to respect them and how to handle them, normalize them so they learn they're not evil; to a ton of people silencers are still "taboo/evil" which shouldn't be the case at all.




Thanks. Thought it would be a project to do over time (next couple months) but got anxious and did it within a week. Tactical Solutions receiver, Enoch Industries Odin chassis, Kidd 6.5" barrel and single stage trigger, Sig folding brace (may SBR it). With the Sig brace the hinge sits too low and hits your hand, so you have to mount it upside down and rotate the brace and make it a right side folder instead of a left side. The SB Tactical folding brace doesn't have that issue cause the hinge system is lower profile, but upon handling the hinge is a lot weaker and not attractive machining wise, plus the whole brace is polymer while the Sig support is aluminum.

I wish we could have silencers in Ca, I'd have one for every one of my guns. But I cant, so I dont.

 

[bluemax_1]

They don't have the numbers we do no, but in those countries the silencer is a non taxed unregulated accessory that makes it less harmful for the shooter and for the game they're hunting and other animals around the shooter. It's a consideration thing.

Since cans have had a $200 PER tax on them since 1934 here, there's a ton of people who haven't been subjected to them outside of what they see in the movies and there's still as much misinformation/mis-knowledge about them as in 1934 which is why they're regulated in the first place

I take it you don't like silencers?

Yep.

It really has to do with perception.

There are a lot of folks who have no experience with firearms, and whose only perception of what firearms sound like, is what they've seen on TV or in the movies. They don't understand just how loud real firearms actually are.

*** I was sitting outside in the patio section of a bar, when we heard a couple of quick pops out in the parking lot. A couple of people began freaking out, "OMG, someone's shooting!". I laughed and said, "Relax, those aren't gunshots". Turns out, some drunken idiots had smashed their empty glass bottles on the asphalt. Folks mistook the WHAP, for gunshots***

Likewise, most folks perceptions of what suppressors sound like, is again, the 'movie quiet', "Pffftttt". They don't realize that supressed pistols are still loud. Just not AS loud. Likewise, anything supersonic is still going to be loud, just not anywhere near AS loud.

The only firearms I've heard that were actually fairly quiet, were suppressed .22 rifles with subsonics, and a suppressed .300BLK with subsonics.

So with a lot of folks, the perception is what they get from entertainment media, i.e. suppressors are all movie quiet, and only used for killing people without detection.

I think locale is a part of it too. Folks who live in the boonies with less restrictive areas, where many shoot in their own backyard ranges, appreciate it more. You're going to hear gunfire on the weekends as your neighbor does a little plinking, but when they're doing suppressed plinking, on a few acres, it's a lot more quiet, relatively.

As far as having to speak louder while instructing goes, electronic ear pro helps a lot, but finding ones that fit 6 year olds may be more problematic.

 

[1AbominAble1]

Six years old huh? It looks like I've got my work cut out for my boys birthday next year.

Is there anything that you guys recommend to do between now and when he goes shooting with Dad next year?

What M67 said is spot on in my opinion, especially about the suppressor/Silencer. I picked 3 up once they made them legal in Mi. and it has made teaching new shooters, including my 3 young kids, an absolute joy.

A 22lr with a can on it is akin to shooting high powered BB guns noise wise. The ability to communicate without yelling through ear protection, while not incurring serious hearing damage, is absolutely a huge help in making the outing a positive experience for your kid/student.
I spend a bit of time letting my kids see and touch the guns in the house. I answer their questions about them, show them safe handling of the guns, explain the operation of the different models, and teach them the 4 basic rules of firearm safety along with the rules that I’ve created. I explain the reasons for the different firearms and their different uses. This has so far satisfied the kids curiosity to the point that they respect them but aren’t afraid of them and are well aware of the danger and devastation that can come from not acting appropriately when firearms are involved.
One thing that really stuck with my boys was a small demonstration of power. I filled a bunch of empty 2 liter bottles to the brim with water and shot them one at a time while moving up in calibers from 22 from a handgun, 22 from a rifle, 22 mag from a rifle, 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, 357 mag, 223, and ended it with 308. They had fun watching it, like going to the fireworks show. They also saw the destructive power and learned some respect for the ability of a bullet to change the future FOREVER.
Getting a BB gun if you have the space to shoot it is helpful. You can teach all of the safe handling skills as well as teaching how to get a proper sight picture before moving into the “ real “ thing. Air soft can work for this as well as be shot in a basement if you don’t have the room for the BB gun.

I apologize for the long post but I could fill a few pages with my advice and opinions on the subject, especially when it involves teaching children.
One of the most important things is to remember to make sure that they’re still having fun! Just because it is a serious lesson doesn’t mean that they can’t enjoy it, if they don’t, they may not want to go again.
Make a day of it, get them a special breakfast or lunch. Let them pick out their own gear at the store so they’re involved and buy the muffs and glasses that they want. If it’s a day with Dad as much as a day shooting, you’ll never go to the range alone again.

 

[bluemax_1]

What M67 said is spot on in my opinion, especially about the suppressor/Silencer. I picked 3 up once they made them legal in Mi. and it has made teaching new shooters, including my 3 young kids, an absolute joy.

A 22lr with a can on it is akin to shooting high powered BB guns noise wise. The ability to communicate without yelling through ear protection, while not incurring serious hearing damage, is absolutely a huge help in making the outing a positive experience for your kid/student.
I spend a bit of time letting my kids see and touch the guns in the house. I answer their questions about them, show them safe handling of the guns, explain the operation of the different models, and teach them the 4 basic rules of firearm safety along with the rules that I’ve created. I explain the reasons for the different firearms and their different uses. This has so far satisfied the kids curiosity to the point that they respect them but aren’t afraid of them and are well aware of the danger and devastation that can come from not acting appropriately when firearms are involved.
One thing that really stuck with my boys was a small demonstration of power. I filled a bunch of empty 2 liter bottles to the brim with water and shot them one at a time while moving up in calibers from 22 from a handgun, 22 from a rifle, 22 mag from a rifle, 9mm, 40sw, 45acp, 357 mag, 223, and ended it with 308. They had fun watching it, like going to the fireworks show. They also saw the destructive power and learned some respect for the ability of a bullet to change the future FOREVER.
Getting a BB gun if you have the space to shoot it is helpful. You can teach all of the safe handling skills as well as teaching how to get a proper sight picture before moving into the “ real “ thing. Air soft can work for this as well as be shot in a basement if you don’t have the room for the BB gun.

I apologize for the long post but I could fill a few pages with my advice and opinions on the subject, especially when it involves teaching children.
One of the most important things is to remember to make sure that they’re still having fun! Just because it is a serious lesson doesn’t mean that they can’t enjoy it, if they don’t, they may not want to go again.
Make a day of it, get them a special breakfast or lunch. Let them pick out their own gear at the store so they’re involved and buy the muffs and glasses that they want. If it’s a day with Dad as much as a day shooting, you’ll never go to the range alone again.

Great post!

The 'power' demo is a good one. Kids love seeing reactive targets (not talking about tannerite, but simply any target that reacts more than paper targets), vs just a new hole appearing in the paper. And as you stated, it's a fun, visual way for them to develop the understanding of just how dangerous firearms can be.

Airsoft is actually a really good training tool, not just for kids, but potentially adults as well. The skill building is scalable with airsoft. You can use it to familiarize a newbie to the safety rules, and potentially use it to hone every skill, with the exception of recoil mitigation.

The lack of a loud BANG/BOOM, can actually help with training newbies to learn the fundamentals without developing a flinch, before moving to stuff that does go bang.

For an appreciation of just how much skill can be developed/trained with airsoft

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

Considering all the great advise you've all given, thank you.

I'm actually considering picking up an air rifle for my kids to learn on. I believe that there is a company that makes integrally suppressed air rifles that throw pills up to .475 caliber.

 

[Casinostocks]

I received the Mesa Tactical Urbino stock and Limbsaver pad today (one ensemble) plus I elected to go with the one which has the cheek riser. The finish outta box is not as nice as the original Benelli stock (SuperNova in the pic below) but the fit is pretty, pretty good for an aftermarket stock which is supposed to fit a bunch of different manufacturers' models (Remington / Mossberg / Stoeger?). The Benelli pump has an obnoxiously sized forend so this one gives me a much better LoP plus great reach to rack the shotgun hard from the correct support palm rest position (I discovered that I was a T-Rex when I bought this SG with the original LoP of 14.75"!). The U.S. made follower (Nordic Components) will arrive in a day or two so I'll be 2 down and one more to go before I wanna venture into the magazine tube extension (parts already on order and en-route). I have been researching but none whom I have named to find who makes a compatible U.S. made trigger/hammer/sear. I think that I will go the gunsmithing route for that 3rd and final part of 922r compliance.

I have not installed the cheek-riser yet because as installed it shoulders perfectly for my line of sight with the ghost-ring rear sight and the front dot sight. I can feel that the ghost-ring rear sight is a bit wobbly which doesn't inspire a lotta confidence in a 12 gauge! I have ordered a Picatinny rail and will eventually be installing a red-dot or reflect optic on this when I get the 922r compatibility all figured out



Original factory stock pictured to kinda represent the above given description.

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

I believe, but could be wrong, that optics made in the USA count toward 922r.

 

[Casinostocks]

I believe, but could be wrong, that optics made in the USA count toward 922r.

Sadly not because it doesn’t replace any of the 13 import part ensemble. It’s only an addition which is not on the list of the Bureau. The follower actually came in the mail today so that has also been added without a hitch; I have snap cap 2 3/4” shells to test out the crap outta it to make sure that things line up and function well and good

Now I’ve read the ATF’s response to someone else’s exact predicament with the exact shotty on the Benelli Forums and FWIW the ATF had no problem whatsoever with a mere swap of one PG buttstock for another U.S. made PG buttstock without the 922r confusions (grain of salt rules always apply regarding what the interwebs say!).

I’ll just ride it like how it is now till I figure out that 3rd qualifying component and then will add the +2 extension. All this for 2 extra shells! Boys and their toys

 

[Rusty_shackelford]

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

Effinaaybro. Effin. Aaayyyyeeee.

 

[Rusty_shackelford]

 

[Rusty_shackelford]

the tavor fits in a backpack pretty easily

 

[Casinostocks]

After so much back and forth, I finally put my big-boys pants on and settled on a S&W 686-6 SSR. The local gunsmith has had this one sitting around for almost 2 years so the price was finally dropped to a level that I could not say no, so we started the paperwork and the 10 days mandatory CA wait period.

Now, I have shot wheel guns and I can't shoot for shyte but I hate, hate, hate shooting at indoor ranges. I know that these are all crucial parts of practicing and honing one's skills, but when it comes to me personally, I shoot much, much better in the open. I dunno if this is just me but I'm quite confident about my shooting abilities when out in the open! Shrugs.

Anywho, I'd been eyeing up revolvers like for almost what, 2+ years now? I followed a very meandering path but ultimately I always came back to a 4" length barrel. If money was going to be the most crucial factor, I would've gone with a GP100 but quite honestly a S&W SSR for a mere $100-$125 more than a Ruger GP100 (CA price on that GP100) to me was a no-brainer as an heirloom type of wheelgun. Not meant as a CCW (I don't CCW and I probably won't qualify for one here in CA) but it will be a vehicle concealed if/when I go on long trips outside of CA. I'll be attending a none-resident UT CCW course in a few weeks and that CCW license has reciprocity with 34 other states. I would not set foot in AZ without packing some serious heat somewhere in my vehicle

 

[JJ_Colt45]

After so much back and forth, I finally put my big-boys pants on and settled on a S&W 686-6 SSR. The local gunsmith has had this one sitting around for almost 2 years so the price was finally dropped to a level that I could not say no, so we started the paperwork and the 10 days mandatory CA wait period.

Now, I have shot wheel guns and I can't shoot for shyte but I hate, hate, hate shooting at indoor ranges. I know that these are all crucial parts of practicing and honing one's skills, but when it comes to me personally, I shoot much, much better in the open. I dunno if this is just me but I'm quite confident about my shooting abilities when out in the open! Shrugs.

Anywho, I'd been eyeing up revolvers like for almost what, 2+ years now? I followed a very meandering path but ultimately I always came back to a 4" length barrel. If money was going to be the most crucial factor, I would've gone with a GP100 but quite honestly a S&W SSR for a mere $100-$125 more than a Ruger GP100 (CA price on that GP100) to me was a no-brainer as an heirloom type of wheelgun. Not meant as a CCW (I don't CCW and I probably won't qualify for one here in CA) but it will be a vehicle concealed if/when I go on long trips outside of CA. I'll be attending a none-resident UT CCW course in a few weeks and that CCW license has reciprocity with 34 other states. I would not set foot in AZ without packing some serious heat somewhere in my vehicle

The S&W 686-6 SSR is a nice gun ... I shot one a buddy has quite a bit and almost bought one myself but since I had a few 4' already I opted for a 686 Pro Series 5" instead.

I think you'll be pleased with it. And I'm not fond of indoor ranges myself ... nor public ranges in general but much prefer an outdoor setting. Even with MS Sordin electronic muffs indoors I use ear inserts before putting on the muffs and hate the lighting and you never know how great the ventilation is in any given facility.

 

[Casinostocks]

The S&W 686-6 SSR is a nice gun ... I shot one a buddy has quite a bit and almost bought one myself but since I had a few 4' already I opted for a 686 Pro Series 5" instead.

I think you'll be pleased with it. And I'm not fond of indoor ranges myself ... nor public ranges in general but much prefer an outdoor setting. Even with MS Sordin electronic muffs indoors I use ear inserts before putting on the muffs and hate the lighting and you never know how great the ventilation is in any given facility.

I waited till this AM to post a more cogent general response and I also wanted to thank you for your nod toward this purchase and also generally being in the same boat with me vis a vis indoor shooting facilities.

I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was and I still am a bit apprehensive about purchasing a revolver and in particular a S&W one! Those who have come to know of me in here will probably agree that I'm quite a geek and a wonk if you will I tend to read a lot, talk a lot and get my state now mind in a pretzel in over researching things

There's a litany of reported issues with S&W all over the Interwebs but getting deeper into revolvers, you'll find out that there are many reported issues and dissatisfactions with revolvers in general. We can get into a more serious debate about revolvers vs semi-autos pros & cons, but for me it came down to 2 main factors:

1- I'm currently on a gun collection trip

2- Revolvers are by and large reported to be reliable (<--- caveat emptor applies)

Now, I have spent more $ with much less angst particularly with CPK and also considering my past proclivities spending like twice as much on pricey marques such as Shirogorov. Being an ardent customer of Nathan / Jo is in a completely different category because as long as I'm not hoarding and / or flipping CPKs for immediate profits, I am supporting a budding small American business which produces the best bang for the buck fixed blades. Not cheap by any means but great value. The matrix is very simple in the case of CPK: one can go fully custom and easily spend 2 x as much but end up getting 1/2 as good! I'm not kidding! OK, now I'm digressing but CPK always has to get its due props

Fire arms are no knives though as the later can relatively easily be moved if the buyer is unhappy/dissatisfied with the product or just decides to change lifestyle/hobbies. But when one lives in a very gun restrictive gun state like I do, what you purchase will most likely stay with you for good, whether you get a great one or a turd! I'm no revolver expert by any means and in fact I would tag myself as quite a novice. That said, I did do my due diligence and visually inspected the 686-6 SSR a couple of times before I committed to staring the process and putting down a good chunk of change on it already.

I inspected it for obvious visual defects and there was none that jumped at me immediately but my eye sight is not what it used to be and my everyday progressive lens glasses are not as good as my magnifying glasses! I didn't notice any obvious front sight/barrel cant, I didn't notice as obvious burr on the finish, I felt that while dry firing the DA pull was smooth and was not stacking on me. The cylinder felt didn't feel like having unacceptable play while dry-firing from one chamber to the next and the back & forth play was also nothing glaringly obvious. All that said, things may change when I bring it home and start going super anal on it!!!

To go full circle back to my above 1 & 2 criteria, I would be mighty p*ssed if an almost $1000 out-the-door S&W Pro-Series starts to jam and seize up when practicing with it, specially with magnum ammo! I'm not expecting a wheelgun which never fails without any maintenance through 1000s of rounds but by the same token, I'm not expecting a pretty looking paperweight either.

In closing, I consider myself as being both practical and pragmatic. I understand that S&W has a stout CS and lifetime warranty and I also accept that with the modern advents in CAD and CNC, it will be unreasonable to expect the quality of the gunsmithing and workmanship which was norm like 3-4 decades ago. I just want and expect a good & honest QC by someone competent before a modern revolver leaves the factory destined for the retailers display to give the customer an honest chance of getting the bang he expects for his buck (pun!)