Cold Steel Strider rip-0ff

i thought they were friends, or at least well acquainted.

i would be surprised if the profile was used without some discussion between the two, even if it hasnt been made public.

assuming it is the same and was first ground by ernie.
 
vaako,

you have managed to miss the essence of it all.

waffles or pancakes?

or dare i suggest round waffles.
 
Vaako said:
To be sure. "Fools laugh at that which they do not understand and in laughing think themselves wise." So, please, laugh on. Because while laughing neither you, nor anyone else has delivered the goods.

Or "walked the walk" as it's called. It's all those hearty breakfasts you keep guzzling. They're slowing you down. ;)

@ Pricecw
You're right the leap is short. So long as you ignore the fact it isn't a kiriha zukuri edge profile and it isn't a straight clip back, there's no yokote, and so on. But that's my whole point. Innovation is all about making that "short leap" into a new design. Other makers added sharpened back edges to the kiriha zukuri but they never deviated from that basic outline. None of them dropped the point towards the center of the blade and then added a clip point.

The features I've pointed out as unique to the CQC profile are all present on the Strider (and everyone else who's copied it since Emerson), no leap required.

So much of the anger on this thread is about Cold Steel copying a Strider design, which they did. Agreed. The only problem is Strider copied Emerson's blade profile first.



Is this thread an example of that? ;)



If only that were true. The entire blade profile was copied. All Strider did is put their handle on an Emerson blade design (the one he most likely invented I should add). It's not just one element or two. It's all of them that make an Emerson CQC blade profile what it is.

...and like Jim Convex said. Nobody cares Strider copied that profile. It isn't copying that's the problem. It's who's doing the copying.
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uh, in case ya didnt catch the drift, i dont think anyone cares about this subject lol.

like i said before WTF diff does it make, ernie doesnt care, WHY are YOU so concerned about it??

isnt there some other point ya can make about this??
 
I remember walking through a Toys-R-Us with my mom when I was 10 or 12 years old. I was very into Lego's at the time.

I saw one of the cheap knock-off building sets that had come out, and was irritated by it. "That's stealing!" I told her.

She explained to me, basically, that other toymakers will bring out similar products to compete with more expensive products, and that they only have to change them a little bit to make it legal.

I was still mad about it... But after a while I got over it.
 
whitie said:
The only victim here is the poor chap at TAD GEAR that was smeared by POS Mick Strider. That's the kind of deliberate, devisive behavior that's worth losing sleep over. Mick Strider wasn't smeared by LT, he was call out! There is all the difference in the world.

Rant against LT if you must, but he's a pilar of society compared to felon Mick, who is after all the only guy that could have stopped any of this discussion from occuring.

whitie
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First of all, it was TAG, not TAD Gear! TAD Gear and Strider, I do believe, are on great terms. They (TAD Gear) sell a lot of Strider products.

Secondly, why is it he did his "call out" in an ad copy for a knife that looks almost identical to one made by the person he is calling out?

Last but not least, "a pilar of society"?:confused: What "society" is that?:confused:


MORIMOTOM said:
i thought they were friends, or at least well acquainted.

i would be surprised if the profile was used without some discussion between the two, even if it hasnt been made public.
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I'm not sure, but I do remember reading a post, on a different forum, where Mick Strider stated something to the effect that Emerson had copied their (Strider's) folder style, with regards to the HD-7, which has G10 on one side, and titanium on the other, similar to the SnG/SMF. He didn't seem very happy about it in his post.

Regards,
3G
 
Why is it that the people here, who want to bash Strider, keep using his criminal history as a means to do so? Did Strider ever contend that he had no criminal record? Has any other knifemaker/manufacturer (excluding DngrRuss1's first-hand account, in this thread, that LT has never even been issued so much as a parking ticket)? I don't recall Strider ever posting that he had no criminal convictions in his background.

For what it's worth, my only point of contention with anything Strider may have done involves the allegation he embellished his own military record. As far as the TAG vs. Strider thing goes, it has been dealt with in a court of law, and Strider paid the price.

As for the people who keep saying Strider copied Emerson's tanto profile, I think Ernest Emerson is enough of an outspoken, straight-shooting guy to have stated so by now, if he felt that was the case. Exactly how long do you think he'd wait to do that? I mean, it's only been like 10 years since Strider knives has been making tantos! I think Ernie would have spoken up by now if he were pissed. Don't you?

Back to the issue of Cold Steel's G.I. Tanto, I think it looks a lot like a Strider! I'm not talking just blade style here. The blade shape, the guard shape, the cord-wrap, and the handle shape, to me, all shout "Strider". The only thing I could see that would make it any more Strider-like would be to stripe the blade. That knife, coupled with the ad copy, lead me to believe that Cold Steel is trying to reach the people who would buy a Strider knife.

The question I have, after looking at Cold Steel's G.I. Tanto, and having read the ad copy, is why, if they were directing their "ex-felon", "rip-off artist" comments at Strider, they would make a knife that looked like a Strider? The answer I have come up with does not please me one bit, and if you really take the time to think about it, I doubt it will please any of you either!:thumbdn:

Regards,
3G
 
Yes, TAG (not TAD Gear), sorry!

I'm not bashing Mick, he did that to himself. I own several of his knives and have more on order. Fortunately, owning a few Striders doesn't blind me to the obvious.

I learned a while ago that while it can be a challenge, it's absolutely necessary to separate the manufacturer from the knife. Enjoy the knives and put their maker out of your mind.

whitie
 
Cold Steel has publicly denigrated numerous knifemakers in the past (let's not forget the karambit statements from a few years ago). Then they "ripoff" these same knifemaker's ideas and designs.
Don't let Lynn Thompson talk about honor and integrity, when he has none himself.
It is all poor ethics and dirty business on CS's part. Sort of stinks like politics, now, doesn't it?

Bri
 
To quote: "I'm not an expert. ". . .I'm not an authority on the subject nor do I claim to be." "Tantos aren't my life study." " "Fools laugh at that which they do not understand and in laughing think themselves wise." "

Frankly, I can include myself along with a lot of others here.

Vaako, what you implied as sarcasm was in fact a request you fulfilled. I don't think it damages your point that there is a similarity in style in the knife in question that can go back to another maker.

More knowledgeable people than you or I have said it in black and white, here in this thread. I have said it elsewhere, and if you read the intro to the "Classical Lines" chapter in KNIVES '84, Ken Warner goes on for a few paragraphs, especially about copies that aren't very good.

You miss the point - this thread is about the snide remark coupled with a deliberate look alike. You, I and most everybody else have no part, no right, or any justifiable cause to proceed with our indignation on any side. We cannot possibly prove in a court of law or opinion that we have been damaged in any way. Only the two respective individuals have that option. It's none of our business, nor is the rehash complementary to the makers, importers, buyers, or the general enthusiasts.

The concept of "intellectual property," "copyright," or any other identifiable trademark or look is best left to the legal experts, none of whom I can identify in 20+ pages of hate and discontent, largely by instigators who may have not even been able to read in 1984.

I've said it before, and I will again, whether its Cold Steel, Strider, Emerson, Lum, Dark Ops, Extrema Ratio, Buck, Blackjack, Schrade, Gerber, Parker, Loveless, Randall, Mtech, or the Home Shopping Network, there is little new in the world of knife styling. The only ones who don't get it are historically ignorant of the wholesale copying of features that has been going on for centuries, since Sheffield blew American Bowie makers out of the water with their cheap gaudy imports in the 1800's.

That's about 175 years ago for the mathematically challenged, meaning our great grandfathers knew about it as a fact of commerce, and that's our heritage. I'll say it again, there is little new in the world of knife styling. The only ones who don't get it are historically ignorant. Our great grandfathers knew about it as a fact of commerce.

How each of us deals with it is our own private matter.
 
tirod3 said:
there is little new in the world of knife styling. The only ones who don't get it are historically ignorant of the wholesale copying of features that has been going on for centuries, since Sheffield blew American Bowie makers out of the water with their cheap gaudy imports in the 1800's.
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You've made a very persuasive argument, Tirod, and you've raised a lot of good points about the similarities of design. I don't believe I'm missing the point you and others are raising on that subject. I'm contending that in this case, Ernest Emerson did come up with something genuinely new, a clip point kiriha zukuri tanto.

If you go back through the issues of K. Warner's knives you'll see there were other makers who jumped onto the tanto trend with their own interpretations of the "k-h tanto" shape. Some of them put sharpened top edges, some gave it a wider sori, others changed the angle of the point, and so on. That's the kind of variation you're talking about that fits as "nothing new under the sun".

But no maker (that I can find) ever put a clip point onto that style of tanto. If I'm correct, that makes it an entirely new shape, an entirely new blade. New knife ideas do happen, especially these days when there are so many incredibly creative people out there. Nobody ever thought a blade hole could be used as an opening. Sal Glesser did. That's new. Nobody ever thought of reversing a set of chisel edges on a dagger. Brent Beshara did. That's new. Bud Nealy came up with a completely new sheath, which other people tried to steal. How many new locking mechanisms on folders keep coming out? So why not give Ernest Emerson the benefit of the doubt as well?

Especially since nobody has shown a knife with that style of blade before Ernest Emerson made one. Let's give the man credit for what he's done and recognize the imitations done by everyone else for what they are.

Whether some makers have permission to imitate him is a different issue and if the parties concerned are friends, then MORIMOTOM is probably right and I'll probably make this my last post on the subject.
 
enderwiggin said:
I remember walking through a Toys-R-Us with my mom when I was 10 or 12 years old. I was very into Lego's at the time.

I saw one of the cheap knock-off building sets that had come out, and was irritated by it. "That's stealing!" I told her.

She explained to me, basically, that other toymakers will bring out similar products to compete with more expensive products, and that they only have to change them a little bit to make it legal.

I was still mad about it... But after a while I got over it.
Click to expand...

DONT you be knocking on my TYCO blocks! They are every bit as good as LEGO blocks. They even improved the design by making the little people more realistic. :p
 
Vaako said:
You've made a very persuasive argument, Tirod, and you've raised a lot of good points about the similarities of design. I don't believe I'm missing the point you and others are raising on that subject. I'm contending that in this case, Ernest Emerson did come up with something genuinely new, a clip point kiriha zukuri tanto.

If you go back through the issues of K. Warner's knives you'll see there were other makers who jumped onto the tanto trend with their own interpretations of the "k-h tanto" shape. Some of them put sharpened top edges, some gave it a wider sori, others changed the angle of the point, and so on. That's the kind of variation you're talking about that fits as "nothing new under the sun".

But no maker (that I can find) ever put a clip point onto that style of tanto. If I'm correct, that makes it an entirely new shape, an entirely new blade. New knife ideas do happen, especially these days when there are so many incredibly creative people out there. Nobody ever thought a blade hole could be used as an opening. Sal Glesser did. That's new. Nobody ever thought of reversing a set of chisel edges on a dagger. Brent Beshara did. That's new. Bud Nealy came up with a completely new sheath, which other people tried to steal. How many new locking mechanisms on folders keep coming out? So why not give Ernest Emerson the benefit of the doubt as well?

Especially since nobody has shown a knife with that style of blade before Ernest Emerson made one. Let's give the man credit for what he's done and recognize the imitations done by everyone else for what they are.

Whether some makers have permission to imitate him is a different issue and if the parties concerned are friends, then MORIMOTOM is probably right and I'll probably make this my last post on the subject.
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Vaako...Emerson didnt invent the tanto. He didnt even invent the American Tanto; that was adapted from the ancient and outdated Kihira-zukuri style. So in reality, all American tanto makers are "ripping off" some Japanese sword smith of antiquity.
 
I recommend all of you guys fighting over who came up with what take a trip to a good museum and look at some of the ancient cutlery on display there. Once you get past the handles and materials and focus on the blades, the style, the uses and everything else the ancients did you will soon see there is really nothing new in any of these claims of originality. If you thought of it I guarantee it was thought of before by someone else already. When you stop to figure just how long man has been on the planet you can kind of figure that knives have been right there with him all the while since the first splintered bone was used to cut flesh and then to chip a rock that took a better edge and so on.

As an example of this. I remember when Spyderco first came out when I was still in the service. One of the guys that worked in the ER had one of the Standards I think it was. Don't hold me to the model I am going from memory a good while ago but whatever it was it was new, it was different with a clip built on it for easy carry, and a one hand opening hole. Guess what he did with that hole? He put a twist tie on it and started Waving it open out of his pocket. I remember watching him whip that thing out to cut off a pair of stubborn thick leather chap straps on a patient bleeding profusely. Seeing that for the first time while I was sitting there for some stitches in my hand from an accident I had was pretty memorable being the knife nut I am. This was some 17 years (plus or minus) before Ernie Emerson's patent. There isn't anything new about the idea. The only difference between then and now is that Ernie patented it after building it into the blade design. The idea was already out there long before that. I've seen other guys write about similar things since joining all these forums too.

I've lost touch with that friend of mine from those days. I bet when he first saw a Waved Emerson or someone using another Spyderco Waved knife that he said, hey, thats my idea! The funny thing is, that it was probably not his idea at all. I can think of one time as a kid when I put one of those neat little slide on one hand opener things of spring steel on my Buck 110. You started those on the clip point part of the blade at the swedge and slid them up to the thicker part of the blade which made for a fairly neat thumb stud one hand opener once it was in place. Once in my car I went to pull out my knife and guess what. That stud caught my pocket and partially opened the blade. Its feesible that this happened long before I even discovered it.



STR
 
mr.trooper said:
Vaako...Emerson didnt invent the tanto. He didnt even invent the American Tanto; that was adapted from the ancient and outdated Kihira-zukuri style. So in reality, all American tanto makers are "ripping off" some Japanese sword smith of antiquity.
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*sigh* There's a difference. As a number of people have said over and over again, designs evolve over time. The kiriha zukuri tanto was invented in Japan. Agreed. It a design that's part of their culture so neither the Japanese nor American makers who use the shape aren't ripping off one guy's work.

I didn't SAY Emerson invented the tanto. I said I believe he invented the combination of a clip-point blade and the kiriha zukuri tanto.

An "American tanto" seems to be whatever people say it is. People use that to mean just about everything from the traditional kiriha zukuri to the Emerson shape.

Everybody keeps saying there's nothing new. Tell that to the patent office and every knifemaker and knife company who has a registered patent. If there's nothing new, why can't anyone find the Emerson CQC profile before Emerson?
 
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