Cold Steel Strider rip-0ff

Anyone? I think you are the only one currently looking my friend. Just because you can't find it does not mean it isn't out there or never was. Its safe to say that dropping the point toward the midline of the blade width is not new. Drop points have been around for a very long time also. Nor is the tanto shape new as you point out. Why is it so hard to believe that at some time in the history of man that the tanto and drop point didn't come together before Ernie Emerson? To me its a no brainer. Its probably happened many times throughout history. Its concievable that once upon a time there was a backyard mechanic in Japan that fixed a broken Katana or Wakizashi tip that broke in a conflict by bringing the spine of the blade down to a point.

STR
 
That's what innovation is all about, STR. You're right dropping the point isn't new, neither are clip points, neither are tantos. But somebody put all of those features together on one knife.

Maybe you're right. Maybe someone did combine a clip point blade with that style of tanto. I look forward to seeing it, then.
 
Ernie may or may not have been the first to use that tip profile, but even if he was, has anyone asked him if he cares if someone else uses it as well?
 
I'm sure that Ernie would have told Mick to go for it with his blessing just like he told me to do the Waves for forum members and knife owners that ask me to do them on their existing production knives.

You know I have a pretty extensive collection of blade and knife magazines going back quite a few years. Here is an add from the Dec 1986 Blade Magazine off the very last page for Pacific Cutlery. Now Pacific later became BenchMade as many of you know, note the Butterfly logo at the bottom of the add. This is pre Ernie Emerson I think, although I can't say when Ernie actually started making his first Tanto.

My point is that BenchMade took this same model at the top of this add made by Pacific that I believe they called their Gamesman blade and continued to use it in a Zytel model of the same knife only lighter weight in a different steel and available in a thumb disc model or traditional opening style like seen here. Actually come to think about it I believe BM took on everyone of those knives by Pacific Cutlery shown here and sold them as their Monarch series folders. Again I'm going from memory here.

Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the idea to drop the point on a tanto blade shape could have come from when you look at this picture at least as far as Ernie is concerned. I'm not saying this is what happened but its seems very feesible to me since this knife was most likely still being offered by BM while Ernie was there or had been recently discontinued by the time Ernest joined BM.

STR
 
STR said:
Anyway, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the idea to drop the point on a tanto blade shape could have come from when you look at this picture at least as far as Ernie is concerned. I'm not saying this is what happened but its seems very feesible to me since this knife was most likely still being offered by BM while Ernie was there or had been recently discontinued by the time Ernest joined BM.

STR
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You could make a much stronger case that the top knife shown in the Pacific Cutlery ad led to the CQC 8

IMHO, It is a huge leap fromthe top model in the Pacific Cutlery ad to something like this.

Keith's got a point. Judging by the descriptions on Emerson's site, he does recognize that the industry is copying his designs.

From the CQC-7B description:
Every knife company has their version of this knife but they fall far short when compared to the "real deal." Now the knife is available from the Originator, Emerson Knives.
 
Yup, and in the article I mentioned from KNIVES '84, Ken Warner mentions Randall, Loveless, and others. In the same era Gerber had their Mark I boot knife mercilessly copied, Lisle was lost in the sea of survival knives, and many others who originated a look, style, or effective detail were blatantly replicated by merchandisers who favored money over originality.

Cold Steel was overwhelmed in the market by cheaper tanto makers who varied every line they could to prevent direct legal action. To suggest he has stolen Strider's design is plausible, but he's been a victim of the very profiteering he's currently promoting. You'd think he'd know better.

After decades of copying, and knifemakers knowing their originality will be replicated by every good and bad maker out there - like Walker's liner lock - it comes down to deciding to buy a quality original or a cheaper, and only possibly improved copy. Unfortunately the market votes with it's dollars, and what comes around does go around.

Oh, a Benchmade CQC7 was my first good tactical knife - the chisel grind and tanto never really fit me, and I am surprised to see after 22 pages that no one has expressed any concerns with a tanto's purpose. I see it as a innovative way to sell knives - but EDC - not. And as a fixed blade for daily use - extremely limited. Just a sharp prybar.

I can't wait to see someone actually stab an oil drum, baton cordwood, and then lever it in a vise to see if LT's picked a good vendor or is getting snakebit with warranty claims. After all, why spend $100's more if it can do the same for $30? The market will vote with its dollars, what comes around goes around.
 
Yeah, I'm not saying it actually took place that way, just that it seems very feesible to me. I also don't see how its such a leap of faith to think that the CQC8 shape and that Pacific shape could further evolve into the other Tanto shape you showed us. My point was that there really isn't anyway that Ernie can claim to be first on that very blade shape and to my knowledge he has never done that anyway so the argument is for naught.

On the other side of the coin to almost side with Vaako I can add. As a folder maker myself it can sometimes be more difficult to put an upswept blade with the point up high into a folder design and tuck the point down into the body nice and safe so its out of the way for trustworthy carrying. Its a natural thing to often times drop the point on a design in a folder for added safety, especially in a liner locking type folder where the point can snag you if the detent is the slightest bit off or allows the blade to lift up exposing the point enough to catch you. I think this is particularly true with a liner locking folder in a tip up carry mode also which is why a lot of guys don't trust carrying liner locks in that mode of carry and why to this day many companies that offer both modes still ship the knife new in the tip down carry safer mode.

It is possible that Ernie purposefully changed the shape of his new tanto blade to drop the tip or point of the folder for safety reasons. Without his direct comment though its all guess work at best.


STR
 
STR said:
Yeah, I'm not saying it actually took place that way, just that it seems very feesible to me. I also don't see how its such a leap of faith to think that the CQC8 shape and that Pacific shape could further evolve into the other Tanto shape you showed us.

STR
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Well, the Pacific Cutlery knife isn't kiriha zukuri tanto (or any other sort of tanto) at all. It's a conventional western style blade with a round edge (none of the angled grind lines that most people think of as a "tanto"), the point very near or in line with the back of the blade and the "clip" portion of the blade rising beyond the back line of the blade and then returning downwards to meet it. Judging by the shape, I think it's designed to be a very good at cutting near the point and IIRC, there's some forms of Japanese naginata blades with an almost identical profile for the same reason.

Your theory as a knifemaker concerning why Ernest Emerson may have "dropped the point" is an interesting one. That's something a knifemaker would pick up on. :thumbup:

What are kiriha zukuri tantos good for, Tirod? I know the old ads from Cold Steel used to show two purposes all the time. One ad showed the point of a tanto sticking completely through a car door. The other ad showed a gambler about to pin a hand holding a derringer to the table.

I know... I know... yeesh.

STR probably could dig up the exact photos since he's got a better library than I do. Aside from that, I guess the market felt it needed that sort of "strength" because the tanto craze (in whatever form) has never let up since then.
 
Vaako said:
*sigh* There's a difference. As a number of people have said over and over again, designs evolve over time. The kiriha zukuri tanto was invented in Japan. Agreed. It a design that's part of their culture so neither the Japanese nor American makers who use the shape aren't ripping off one guy's work.

I didn't SAY Emerson invented the tanto. I said I believe he invented the combination of a clip-point blade and the kiriha zukuri tanto.

An "American tanto" seems to be whatever people say it is. People use that to mean just about everything from the traditional kiriha zukuri to the Emerson shape.

Everybody keeps saying there's nothing new. Tell that to the patent office and every knifemaker and knife company who has a registered patent. If there's nothing new, why can't anyone find the Emerson CQC profile before Emerson?
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Arent you a CS supporter? Then why are you bickering about Strider/ Emerson? Classic Red Herring fallacy.
 
I think CS is sending the market a wake up call-that a well made, sharp cord-wrapped combat knife can be sold by a major manufacturer for $29.95.

When I first saw cord-wrapped Strider knives I was stunned at the prices that people gladly paid for them. When I worked for Blackjack knives (another bunk of "war heroes" replete with the toe curling stories!) they had about $8 cost in an AUS-8 ,boxed Ek Warrior cord wrapped knife in 1995 dollars, but at least it had a guard and a box, and it was razor sharpened in typical Blackjack fashion!

Strider and others prove on a daily basis that the greatest expense in the knife business is not machinery, or labor, or IP-it is marketing. Successful companies in this space are great marketing companies FIRST. You don't necessarily need a great product to succeed if the marketing is top drawer and you effectively reach your core audience, or rather barrage your core audience.

Strider Knives are production knives, just like Cold Steel. They are laser cut, heat treated in a production venue, CNC ground on an automated machine and then sandblasted and hafted and sharpened. They come with a good $20 sheath that costs more than the knife it holds within, guaranteed. Is the knife worth 10X the price of the Cold Steel version? To many, obviously it is. Strider has invested the marketing money to convince you that their $35 knife is worth $300! The ads, the articles, the freebies to operators--these knives are what a Rolex Sub or Corcoran boots were in VietNam---a status symbol! They carry a connotation that the owner is an operator, or has some training, or maybe even knows an operator, or in this case, at least the knife is made by an operator! That may be the closest some of the owners of these products ever get to an "operator", unless they work on a telephone switchboard, or unless they go to the Blade Show and drink Guiness with the Strider guys.

Cold Steel is, along with Al Mar, the first true specialty knife manufacturer.
Sure their marketing is over the top, but you can learn a lot from their products as they usually work quite well. They tend to market excellent tools that suit many types of customers from entry level to aficionado. They are truly a one stop shop from $5 to $500. They also barrage their customers with advertising but have great distribution and generally interesting designs.
They catch a lot of flak because in general they are an easy target, also because the Cold Steel average owner isn't represented on forums like this. They are more bread and butter specialty knives. Real hunters buy knives like the Master Hunter and real (poor and young) soliders buy knives like the SRK. People who spend time on 4-wheelers on horseback or HMMV's buy inexpensive to moderate priced knives (in general) that they can replace after they lose them or give them away as a gift. Very few own Busse's, or Striders, or any other $300+ combat knife. The ones that do are usually given them as gifts. Most enlisted men just do not use gear like that unless it is awarded or issued or sent from home.

The knife business, like most non-essential markets, is very personality driven.
As a result it is full of shysters, rip-off artists, and scam dealers.
Lynn Thompson isn't one of them. He may be a huckster to some, but frankly I just recognize it as effective marketing that appeals to many, but not all.

As far as Mick Strider is concerned. I am sure he is a great guy to party with and drink Guinness and single malt with and even covertly deanimate bad guys with. We have some mutual friends and they speak highly of him. I am not a fan of the product or the marketing even prior to the recent revalations, but thats why the knife business is so broad and diverse as there are plenty of folks that love their Striders and sing their praises loudly even if they rarely use them to do anything more than "deanimating" an apple.
 
A wake up call? A $30 dollar knife? :rolleyes: Are you serious? You can't be serious. I feel like for 30 bucks I should get a package of knives, like on the Home shopping network. You know one Klingon slayer, a mystical lord of the rings Bowie, that $30 crapper, and 10 little cutters in blaze yellow. I mean at 30 bucks that things a total rip off, I can get the same knife and like twenty others with it, plus free shipping, on the knife show!!! Comparing it to real knives is just insane.


You really can't be serious???
 
For the next thread we can discuss whether or not we would like our knives designed by "operators" or "knifemakers/designers".

That should be an interesting topic.
 
cold-steal.jpg
 
Say what ever you want about LT, for 30 bucks that thing is not a rip off. I dont have any use for a tanto, but if you have to do some prying or heavy chopping that knife would be allright, and functionally just as good as any strider.
 
Apparently you haven't used many Cold Steel knives. At $30 its a bargain and it will probably perform on par or perhaps even surpass that S30V blade. My son spent 14 months in Iraq and four in NY preparing and told me on more than one occasion that Cold Steel knives saw a great deal of tough use on the job in both places in the Army.

I don't care for some of what I've seen from CS anymore than anyone else does around here when it comes to some shady looking things going on in marketing, advertisement and so on but the products for the most part speak for themselves. They work plain and simple. I might also point out that the only thing Cold Steel can be credited with making is videos. They don't manufacture anything. They are a marketing company. Camillus, Seki, Moki Japan, plants in Taiwan and China make (or made as the case may be) what they sell.

STR
 
I have no doubt that the CS is a good value, I just wish they had come up with their own design, and had kept the comments to themselves.
 
mr.trooper said:
Arent you a CS supporter? Then why are you bickering about Strider/ Emerson? Classic Red Herring fallacy.
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That's a ridiculous accusation considering I've repeatedly mentioned that Cold Steel copied the Strider design. In itself, your accusation is a red herring because you're trying to re-direct the focus onto me, my motives, instead of the unpleasant reality that Strider is guilty of copying too.

That's what's bothering people here. Strider is being held accountable for copying just like Cold Steel. Everyone seems to hate Cold Steel for being unethical and copying a design from Strider, which they did. At the same time, everyone is repeatedly ignoring Strider's copying of an Emerson blade because Strider Knives has lots of friends.

So it isn't the act of copying that's bad, it's who does it.

Please don't deliberately misuse debating terms. A "Red Herring" means introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.

In this case, there's several "questions" one of which is the wrongness and unfairness of copying. I'm one of the few people who keeps bringing the focus back onto copying. Cold Steel copied Strider and Strider copied Emerson.

If you want to discuss debating fallacies, yours is the most glaring.

mr.trooper said:
Arent you a CS supporter?
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Classic argumentum ad hominem. This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.

Since some here may share your suspicions, the answer is no. I'm a supporter of the truth, which doesn't change because Lynn Thompson is very unpopular or because Mick and Duane can do no wrong in the eyes of their fan club.

Since the subject has been sidetracked, I suppose your red herring accusation of a red herring on my part is, for what it was designed to accomplish, successful.
 
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