Nice double standard, Zenmedic, Lynn Thompson rips off Strider. What a slimy profiteer. Strider rips off Ernest Emerson's blade and suddenly it's an "attempted redirection" on my part for pointing that out.
Lifter4him, I hope you didn't put away those copies of Knives annuals just yet.
Knives '83
Page 87.
There isn't a single tanto on the page. The listing is "
Bowies, Frontier Style"
Makers shown: Ed Love, James Barry, D.B. Brown, Froust, Fain Edwards.
W.H. Welch doesn't even have a knife,
any knife, listed on the page! That's just priceless. It gets better. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe you got the numbers wrong. That isn't it, either. There aren't any tanto blades on the page preceding or following page 87. There aren't any tanto blades on page 78, either!
Page 98.
Bob' Lum and Howard Viele's tantos exhibits the classic kihira zukuri type, what is commonly and incorrectly called "Americanized". It's an archaic Japanese shape. In both of the examples you cite, the point is in line with the back of the blade. None of them have an Emerson CQC profile.
Page 99.
Both of Howard Viele's tantos on this page share the same kiriha zukuri profile as the "Naked Steel" tanto. This "Naked Steel" Tanto was, of course, the original "Cold Steel" tanto and probably the first picture of it in the Knives series. However, none of the tantos have a clip point. None of the tantos have a point in or even near the center of the blade. All of the tantos have their point in line with the back of the blade.
Knives '84
Page 69.
Edwin Anderson has a tanto with the exact same kiriha zukuri profile as the Cold Steel. Point is in line with the back of the blade, not below it. No clip.
Page 70.
Every single tanto on the page exhibits the kiriha zukuri profile. Again, point is in line with the back of the blade,, not below it. No clip.
Page 72.
This is getting repetitive because you don't know how to read. Every single tanto on the page exhibits the kiriha zukuri profile. Again, point is in line with the back of the blade, not below it. No clip. Ray Beers had a "double edged" tanto, but again, point is in line with the back of the blade. No clip.
Knives '85
Page 39.
Kevin Hoffman, again, has a kiriha zukuri tanto. Point is in line with the back of the blade. No clip
Page 72.
Wash, rinse, repeat. All knives have their point in line with the back of the blade. All knives don't have a clip point.
Page 73.
Guess what? Lifter4him, you still can't tell the difference between kiriha zukuri and an Emerson CQC. All knives *sigh* again, have the point in line with the back of the blade. All knives don't have a clip point.
Page 75.
This is going from bad to bizarre. There are tantos on the page but none of them are folders. Please tell me you know the difference between "fixed" and "folding"? Even so, the makers shown are Tom Maringer, Norman Bardsely, Fecas, Chuck Stapel, Sid Jirik, Trav Winn (who made a jambiya-ish knife). But once again, all of the tantos have a kiriha zukuri profile. A couple have sharpened back edges, but the point is in line with the back of the blade, not below it or near the center. No clip point on
any of them.
I have no doubt of it. That looks exactly like 15 minutes worth of research. It's sloppy, factually incorrect in several places, and entirely irrelevant to the discussion. You went rushing off to your back issues of Knives and grabbed the first bunch of tantos you found.
The problem is, Lifter4him,
you don't know how to read. I wasn't just being caustic or sarcastic. You
don't.
A kiriha zukuri tanto profile, the one done by a few early custom makers and subsequently popularized by Cold Steel has its point in line with the back of the blade. The point does not drop down towards the center of the blade. As such, it's impossible for the knife to have a clip point, the way an Emerson does.
Let's try it in simple pictures since, in spite of your sarcasm, you
do have reading comprehension problems and the examples you provided show this over and over again.
This is a kiriha zukuri tanto profile.
Point in line with the back of the blade. No clip.
This is what I call the "Emerson CQC profile".
Point is below the back of the blade, nearer to the center. It has a clip point.
So when you go back to rummaging through your back issues of Knives, you're looking for
this, got it? How hard is it to compare basic shapes? That's basic Sesame Street level. Never mind reading a description, just go look at the pictures.
In other words, you don't know him personally, and are desperately trying hide behind the additional adjective "close". Amazing how your detailed reading ability improves when it suits you. What you
implied is not what you explicitly
said while you were citing your friendship with Emerson. So we're both in agreement you're
not a "close" personal friend. I take it that also means you can't call him up today as a "close" friend and have him personally resolve the genesis of his design.
Please do. Better still, please have Mr. Emerson post to the thread.
...because judging by your painfully obvious inability to differentiate one blade shape from another, your credibility to remember a conversation is
shot. "Ernest told me..." Oh brother.
Maybe for you it isn't. For me, the thread is about a very ugly double standard.
Everyone is denouncing Lynn Thompson and Cold Steel for "stealing/ copying/ ripping off" a design from Strider Knives. Everyone agrees that kind of behavior is unethical and reprehensible. Great. So why does Strider get a free pass to do the same thing to Ernest Emerson?
Why isn't there the same outrage against Strider Knives, because all they did was put a Strider style handle on an Emerson blade design. That's "stealing/ copying/ ripping off" a blade from someone else. Everything that's been said against Cold Steel about that sort of behavior also applies to Strider.
I'll be glad to explain. What I take personally is people correcting me when they don't know what they're talking about and
you don't. As the person being "corrected," yes, I do take that personally.
I hope it doesn't involve reading or telling one basic shape apart from another, because you completely blew it with your examples.
Blackwind, could you please explain why that logic isn't being applied in the same way to Cold Steel? Okay, their G.I. Tanto is a close copy of a Strider knife? Like you said,
"Who really cares who came up with the design first?" For some strange reason, a lot of people on this thread
do care. They care for the same reason Sal Glesser cares which company came up with the Spyderco hole design first. That's fine. They should care and they should
also care who came up with the blade first, too.
That's exactly what I've been asking everyone to do, Bill. Post proof Emerson didn't invent the CQC blade profile. Nobody has gone through their old museum catalogs and posted a scan of that profile. Nobody has posted an old Sheffield knife with that blade. Nobody. Until they do, nobody has earned the right to refute my claim that Emerson did it first.
You're right, Lifter4him did post a lot of tantos. He also can't read. I've never disputed that other makers did tantos, specifically kiriha zukuri tantos. What I continue to claim is that Ernest Emerson was the first maker to combine the kiriha zukuri tanto shape with a straight clip point blade. Maybe I'm wrong on that. It's possible. But until someone provides conclusive proof of that fact, the statement stands and Emerson deserves the credit he's due.
I'm not arguing about the "overall look" as you put it. I'm arguing about the blade profile. Ignore the handles. Compare blade to blade. Who's the innovator and who's the copy-cat?
You're right, a lot of people do like Mick Strider. I personally believe that's why everyone keeps ignoring the fact Strider copied an Emerson design while screaming so loudly that Lynn Thompson copied a Strider design. It's not the copying that seems to bother people. It's
who does it and that's very hypocritical.
Post one a photograph of one, then. I'm glad you linked up the same page I have. That means we're "on the same page", so to speak.
See the kiriha zukuri tanto on the page? See the one with the
yokote line and the angled point? The point is still in line with the back of the blade. That's the style a few custom knife makers did way back when. It's the style Cold Steel popularized.
Now imagine a kiriha zukuri style tanto with the point
below the back of the blade, closer to the center. Add a straight clip swedge connecting the point with the back of the blade.
When you're done, you're going to have
a blade profile that looks like this.
If you claim that there are ancient Japanese weapons with that profile, maybe you're right. Please post a photograph of such a weapon.
