Cold Steel Strider rip-0ff

Red Herring means introducing irrelevant facts or arguments to distract from the question at hand.

If you want to discuss debating fallacies, yours is the most glaring.

#1) Youv said SO much stuff that nobody can realy tell exactly WHAT you stand for.

#2) The fact that your constantly bringing up Striders past and whether or not Emerson has any rights is irrelevant to the fact that CS still ripped someone off. You ARE constantly introducing irrelevant facts.

#3) Ponting out logical fallacies on your part is NOT an attack on your character, therefore your remarks about ad hominem are incorect. I have not attacked your character or motives in any way. I asked if you were a CS supported because your first few posts seemed to suppor that conclusion, but the later ones did not. I am simply asking you to clarrify your position. It seems to have gotten lost in last 24 pages of crap.

Besides, if i wanted to be a Pain in the ass, i would attack your grammar :D
 
mr.trooper said:
#1) Youv said SO much stuff that nobody can realy tell exactly WHAT you stand for.

What do I stand for? Let's see...

If anyone is being "ripped off", it's Ernest Emerson and Timberline knives. That blade profile is almost identical with the Emerson SpecWar. So both Cold Steel and Strider are "rip offs".
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Considering both Cold Steel and Strider are both ripping off Ernest Emerson/ Timberline Knives "SpecWar" design, that's not really an issue.

If you're outraged at Cold Steel "ripping off" a Strider design, why aren't you equally outraged that Strider "ripped off" Ernest Emerson in the first place?
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I'm not "defending" Cold Steel as much as showing that Strider isn't any different in similar areas.
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Everyone's denouncing Cold Steel for "ripping off" Strider. Poor Strider Knives, they've been victimized by an unethical bunch of dirtbags. The truth is both Cold Steel and Strider are guilty doing the same thing to Emerson. If Cold Steel is a no good rip off and a dirtbag for swiping other people's ideas, the same applies to Strider.
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That's what I stand for, got it?

#2) The fact that your constantly bringing up Striders past and whether or not Emerson has any rights is irrelevant to the fact that CS still ripped someone off. You ARE constantly introducing irrelevant facts.

It's not a "fact" nor am I "constantly" bringing up Strider's past.

The "con" charge has already been done to death.
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However, I'm not really concerned about his "real deal". I'm interested in seeing credit (and any blame) given where it's due. That hasn't changed since my very first post on this long and now very ugly thread.
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Cold Steel ripped someone off. Agreed.

...and the "someone" they ripped off also ripped off Ernest Emerson first and not a single person has been able to prove otherwise.

That's very relevant to the issue of "copying" and who is really being victimized by it.

#3) Ponting out logical fallacies on your part is NOT an attack on your character

Unfortunately, you have proven nothing of the sort. One of the main objections many people have here is about Cold Steel copying a Strider design. Copying is an issue. The problem is, Strider copied Emerson's blade design and added their own handle style to it. So their "copying" is also an issue. As a result, pointing out that the company being copied from is also guilty of copying definitely is relevant. Or at least it is to me.

People who happen to like Strider have a double standard about that. Cold Steel is a dirtbag for copying Strider. Strider copying Emerson, well, that's different because Mick and Duane are great guys.

I asked if you were a CS supported because your first few posts seemed to suppor that conclusion, but the later ones did not.

My very first post condemned Cold Steel as a "rip off". Most of my other posts have too. It's impossible to consider that as "supportive" of Cold Steel in any way, much less give rise to the confusion you claim to have regarding my position.

Besides, if i wanted to be a Pain in the ass, i would attack your grammar

Make sure you attack everyone else's too! Ah, the double standard appears again! I'd suggest you proof-read your own posts for spelling and punctuation, first. ;)

Besides, we shouldn't be discussing me, or my motivations, or the points of debating fallacies. Your decision to focus on them, instead of the real issues is a "red herring" in itself.
 
Your still defencive? I went out of my way to be polite and light hearted with my last post...

Im on board with the idea of a dedicated LT bashing forum. BTW. :D
 
LIke I said, like he said. I think it's time to "put up or shut up" for the CS knife. Whether the slight variations in grind and grip actually help or hurt. Whether 1055 as supplied, with it's heat treat, will perform vs. S30V. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

If the 1055 is not differential treated, I can see breakage where S30V will not. Foreign made medium carbon steels in this price range don't get great hardening treatments, it's a high volume low control process. Refer to the posted shots of another CS blade in small pieces when abused.

Through hardened, through tempered blades need thickness to resist their own brittleness. Is it tough enough to do the job? Curious minds want to know.

The Bushman knife held up as one of the best tested in the Noss tests posted here.
I paid $20 bucks for that knife, not a bad investment for what it is.
Regarding Steel purchases, I am not a knife maker but I do dabble in sales both wholsale, retail etc.
Industries vary but I know the trade I was in, the walk in customer might pay $30.00 for a thermostat as a tradesman spending just $1000 a month with the supplier I paid $12.00.
I have a mark up of several thousand dollars for the equipment I sell now, If a buyer came in and offered to purchase the equivalent of half my years sales he would be paying only a few hundred dollars margin.
That is business, you think Wallmart get 10 or 20% less than Ma and Pa's corner store?
Wallmart can sell it for a lot less more than Pa can buy it.
 
Your still defencive? I went out of my way to be polite and light hearted with my last post...

Defensive? Just my usual dry self, Mr. Trooper. If this thread (and a certain other) has given me anything it's a thicker skin, so to speak. ;)
 
What do I stand for? Let's see...

Copying is an issue. The problem is, Strider copied Emerson's blade design and added their own handle style to it. So their "copying" is also an issue. As a result, pointing out that the company being copied from is also guilty of copying definitely is relevant. Or at least it is to me.

CS not only copied Strider almost 100% (= made identical knife) but also posted (at least) questionable statements on their website.

I do own Emerson blade and I do not think Strider is the same. Emerson is chisel ground with different handle, strider is double ground. If Strider was a copy of Emerson, I am sure we all would hear from Ernie long time ago (hint: Blackwood/Benchamde folder). So if he does not care why you do?

David

PS: I am no fan of Strider knives just for the record

EDITED:

If you think the Strider tanto is copy of Timberline to the same extent as CS is copy of Strider, then IMO you should have your eyes checked :)

timberline%20emerson%20specwar.jpg


cold-steal.jpg
 
I'm sorry, I don't see the word Strider anywhere in the text.

It wouldn't be very bright of LT to actually put the name Strider in the ad. However, it doesn't take much imagination, or intelligence, to come up with Strider when the ad mentions another company selling similar knives for hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I think there is only one such company. After figuring out which company is being referred to by learning that Strider is the only one that fits the description, it naturally follows that it must be people that work for Strider that are convicted felons and ripoff artists that pose as elite "military operators".
 
And due to that potentially damaging inference, were I to work there, I'd be hot to get a lawyer as soon as I could document an actual loss to my person, property, or reputation.

You all do know ISPs have to give up your home address, don't you? Not that the lady in Minnesota whose kids downloaded ripped songs was guilty, but she's still in court. Probably nothing going on like that here, either, laywers cost money. But the continuing micro drama of exploiting a makers personal life will eventually hit the legal threshold. All the defensive posting does is to feed the trolls and keep them, and it, alive.
 
I suppose everyone here knows that for every knife design appearing in print there are probably ten that don't, so ascribing a blade design/shape to a maker based on published photos is difficult to impossible. You need only visit the Blade show one year to see the variety of designs, many new, created by ~500 knifemakers. The issue is somewhat easier to define in the knife's overall appearance simply because there are more variables to arrange. Different makers, especially experienced makers generally design knives to have their own "look" and they keep that look over time to more clerly establish the identity. (This is somewhat less true of bladesmiths who tend to copy traditional designs.)

There is just no question the CS knife is copied after the Strider look, even though a couple small changes have been made, such as the angled butt on the handle. In point of fact, small changes tend to point to the actual intent to copy the design, look and feel of the Strider knife.

In any case to create a red herring based on blade shape alone, absent considerable knowledge, requiring attendance at several shows of the custom market at the time the design originated, is meaningless in light of the overall design which is clearly Strider and has been Strider for many years.
 
And due to that potentially damaging inference, were I to work there, I'd be hot to get a lawyer as soon as I could document an actual loss to my person, property, or reputation.

You all do know ISPs have to give up your home address, don't you? Not that the lady in Minnesota whose kids downloaded ripped songs was guilty, but she's still in court. Probably nothing going on like that here, either, laywers cost money. But the continuing micro drama of exploiting a makers personal life will eventually hit the legal threshold. All the defensive posting does is to feed the trolls and keep them, and it, alive.

Military management principles, concentrated livestock feeding, and now a legal expert? Is there any end to your breathtaking skill set?

Just so that you know, the truth is a total defense to claims of slander and libel.

Any actual losses to person, property, or reputation, would totally hinge on whether that person, and his reputation, were squared away or not. In this case, there will be no lawsuits, because Mr. Middle Earth knows there is no way for him to win them.

Facts aren't such tricky things, even Lynn Thompson sometimes grasps them.

The facts surrounding Mickey Ray Burger are not really in dispute, well in no more dispute than his next spin on his own sordid tale puts into it.

The fact that there are several posts at once going on about this Strider character is not due to some horde of flamers who look to pounce every Strider reference made. It has to do with the fact that the dude never owns up.

BF.com has a wonderful archive. People actually read it. The questions come up anew for folks not around the first time. Then the apologists come in and try to patch up the irreparable.

If the guy would have (let's do gentalia, it's one of Mick's favorites) SACKED UP, and ironed out all of the cutesy fartsy embellishments and outright lies about his persona, a nearly whole cloth character he conjured up into a certain amount of mystique just to sell some knives, none of these endless threads would matter.

If he would have come clean when caught, instead of trying the "lie du jour" method, one could say, "Strider? That's an old story. Use the search function."

Instead, the dude just keeps stacking the shit and hoping no one will notice when it falls over again in a new stink.

Latest example is from his Badlands sticky about how he was going to be punished for carjacking by being deployed to Somalia, apparently in a spooky style civilian capacity, (Mick wouldn't serve as a cook or wash helos would he?), after a brief two years in the Army, with no Ranger tab, any other demonstrable advanced training, an allegedly serious spinal condition, and after having been reduced in rank before being discharged. He was allegedly going to serve in Somalia for a year, with his pay kept as a fine, when apparently, the US Attorney's office, or the judge, pulled the deal and sent him away for the better part of five years in a FedPen.

Putting aside obvious military inconsistencies to this account, there is the whole matter of bringing in a variation of the hoary old myth "Join the Army or do time son."

Even when Mr. Burger was being a bad guy, there were in place these inconvenient truths called Federal Sentencing Guidelines. These guidelines were intended by Congress to serve as templates to ensure equal justice for equal crimes was meted out. Strider implies that there was a deal in place to recommend a departure from these guidelines, apparently because he was someone special. I smell the south end of a north bound steer in that account.

First, he had no special skills that the particularly untaxed US Army in 1993 would have needed out of him special enough to pervert justice being done in his case. The only non-DOD or European sourced caucasin civilians working Somalia were affiliated with the UN and with NGO charities such as Medicines Sans Frontieres. Mick has never intimated possessing civil administration or charity medical skills. He's a HS/LD wannabe, not a civil service wannabe. He also has displayed no discernable talent for diplomacy, so the State Department and the Peace Corps are also out as potential spook cover.

So the government's apparent scraping of the very bottom of a very full post-Gulf War barrel of experience and skill defies logical explanation in terms of either military or para-military capacities requiring the talents of a little trained carjacker.

The "I coulda fought the skinnies" account does allow the Fabulous Mick Strider to intimate that he was special, in a way you wannabes are not, with little or no chance of critics being able to check it out. It's a page stolen directly from Kevin McClung's "fake autobiographical" model, quite frankly.

Too bad for him, and for the sake of the future flame wars that will undoubtedly come, that the logical underpinnings of the account are so shaky as to be all but unbelievable.

That's enough for now. I do think that this is the part where it's next implied or outright stated by someone that I'd get my ass kicked if I dared not be an internet wuss and confronted him about his colorful fantasy life in person.:rolleyes:
 
Does anyone have a direct link for this Badlands posting? I tried to register over there to read for myself, but apparrently the registration system is not working.

I'm very curious what exactly was said.
 
Does anyone have a direct link for this Badlands posting? I tried to register over there to read for myself, but apparrently the registration system is not working.

I'm very curious what exactly was said.

We've had 8 people register today without any problems, one as recently as 15 minutes ago.

I would be more than happy to assist you. PM me here (I think I'm allowed 5?)... or... you have my email account on file (I know because I've been getting a lot of nice emails from folks here recently).... so if you would like to send me an email, I can help you with your registration.

Regards,

m1
 
Already PMed you, I set you up with a Basic Membership as well so you can field tech support questions about Badlands when there's an issue.
 
There is no telling the sordid stories we would hear if we investigated every knifemaker like you guys have obsessed over Strider. I'll bet you don't treat your friends and family who have had past problems the same way.
 
There is no telling the sordid stories we would hear if we investigated every knifemaker like you guys have obsessed over Strider. I'll bet you don't treat your friends and family who have had past problems the same way.

I don't care who we are talking about. If someone keeps trying to bullshit me, directly or indirectly, in public or in private, I'm not dismissing it.

My unsolicited advice to Strider would be to shut up about his past. Every single time he tries to burnish it with a new tale, he gets BOHICAed, or FUBARed if you prefer.

You'd think he knows that "you can't polish a turd." It's a common military expression. Why he keeps on steppin' in it only he can say.
 
If you think the Strider tanto is copy of Timberline to the same extent as CS is copy of Strider, then IMO you should have your eyes checked :)

I didn't discuss "extent" because that's entirely subjective. I hate repeating myself, but I already discussed the difference in grind back on page 4 of this thread. Changing the style of grind, when everything else about the blade profile is identical doesn't change the fact that it's still an Emerson innovation.


I'm glad you posted those two pictures side by side. Compare the blades. Just the blades. Who came up with that style of blade first?

In the absense of any other supporting information, vague claims about what may or may not have appeared at a knife show years ago are irrelevant. The fact remains creative knife makers do come up with designs that are entirely new. Claiming otherwise is not only wilfully ignorant but diminishes what these makers have accomplished. Until someone proves otherwise, maker Ernest Emerson should be given the credit he's due as an innovator. As someone said elsewhere, all the aspects of this design have been around before. Ernest Emerson didn't invent the kiriha zukuri tanto, nor did he invent the clip point blade. However, it seems that Ernest Emerson is the maker who first combined the two.

I happen to agree with Mr. Hossom that a knife's overall appearance has more variables and this, in turn, defines a knife maker's signature "look". However, the more variables a person has to judge, the more such judgements become purely subjective and, unfortunately, influenced by the viewer's own particular and sometimes openly stated bias.

I recognized this problem from the outset which is precisely why I restricted my focus to the blade profile alone. This removes many of the variables contributing to an "overall appearance" and narrows the focus down to a few basic aspects of design which no one has been able to refute, regardless of knife making skills, self described experience, the number of knife shows they've attended, or any other irrelevancies which truly are "red herrings".

Fact: The Emerson SpecWar in the top photo has a kiriha zukuri tanto profile and a clip point.

Fact: It is an Emerson design, the earliest example of an Emerson blade with these features can be dated as far back as 1988.

Fact: Both the Cold Steel and Strider models in the bottom photo also have a kiriha zukuri tanto profile and a clip point.

Fact: Both the Cold Steel and Strider models were made many years after Ernest Emerson made a knife with this profile.

Fact: No one has been able to show that Ernest Emerson didn't create this profile first. There is textual support for this claim that no one has been able to dispute. No counter claim has yet been supported with anything except the commentor's own opinion, beliefs, and (at times), the commentor's own inflated opinion of themselves.

To closely paraphrase a very good point Mr. Hossom raised...

"There is just no question the Cold Steel and Strider blades are copied after the Emerson profile, even though a couple small changes have been made, such as the grind type or the edge angles. In point of fact, small changes tend to point to the actual intent to copy the design, look and feel of the Emerson blade profile."

If copying a maker's work is reprehensible, then Cold Steel and Strider are both guilty of this
 
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