CS- love 'em, hate 'em- time to address some issues

[Cliff Stamp]

A shill is one who poses as a satisfied customer in order to dupe someone into a swindle.

Generally the critical element of a shill is having a connection and not being open about it. For example there are lots of people here very enthusastic about certain knives but no one calls them shills because they have no connection to the makers, either monetary or otherwise. The reason the label got attached to you was because you do have some connection. While you never really hid it and admitted it readily when asked, you were not open about it either initially. Compare this for example to someone like Dick Barber who defends S30V just as much as you defend Cold Steel but no one accuses him of shilling as he has always made it clear who he is and his relationship to the steel.

The other big factor is that you seem to be only arguing those points in regards to Cold Steel. There is lots of similar critism applied to other makers/manufacturers but you don't apply the same arguements in their defence. This seems to imply that you are focused on defending Cold Steel specifically and this doesn't really provide the image of an unbiased independent observer but someone who has a specific interest. Again, initially if you had made it aware that there was a connection and exactly what this was, there would not be the use of that particular label which is unfortunate because labels tend to not be productive to discussions as they often become the focus instead of the arguement itself..

In general Cold Steel gets a lot of undeserved critism thrown thier way, and as noted in the above some people think that because they have made some mistakes (in their opinion) it means that anything goes as far as attacks. This is unfortunate and it is a good thing that you are there to contend such viewpoints. While I have disagreed with what you have said at times this doesn't mean that I would have rathered you not said it. Someone telling you that you are right does wonders for the ego but achives little otherwise.

It would be very beneficial for Cold Steel if they could establish a forum here, there was one in the past, in general internet activity seems to have a fairly positive responce to the makers/manufacturers who are so inclinced. It isn't like Thompson himself would have to run it, though a lot do choose to be so active like Glesser and Busse. In general customers tend to appreciate it a lot when they can talk to representatives directly and it would be really interesting to have Thompson himself involved in the discussions. It would likely directly reduce a lot of the critisms.

-Cliff

 

[DngrRuss1]

That's fine.

Seriously man, it's difficult to take you seriously because as Rat said, all you ever do is post about Cold Steel. Respect is earned on this forum by participating in and contributing to discussions of all types of topics, not just one personal gripe. If I were in your shoes, i.e. friends with a certain company who I felt was being unfairly maligned, I would at least attempt to prove my worth by engaging in the community before embarking on a never-ending crusade.

But I very well might go on that crusade. I can't fault you for making your position known and providing information (let's just forget about reliability here; if we really get into that one we'll end up nowhere) that you feel reflects a more accurate picture of reality.

My issue is your absolute obsession with it. It would make quite a difference to you and your cause if you were a fully participatory member of this community rather than just 'that guy who only talks about Cold Steel and how everyone who attacks them is stupid'.

Look at it this way: We're all sitting around the bar, and you're the guy walking in telling some of us that we're arrogant pooheads for not liking a particular type of liquor and being willing to say why.

Sit down. Have a drink. Talk about the weather.

Then I'll have some knowledge of who you are, what you know and where you're coming from, and maybe I'll be able to respect you a bit more.

I, again,understand your point and it has a degree of validity. I wouldn't call it an obsession. I like knives of all kinds and have a fairly substantial collection of my own. I also have a lot of swords and other ancient style weapons (nothing original- I don't have that kind of cash), I throw axes, hawks and knives (and yes, the CS shovel), was a highly experienced primitive archer. Lots of topics covered here on the forum. I really have little to add to the discussions because I don't have any informations and/or opinions that add to the conversation. Even on the other forums I visit (not knife discussions) I am the same. If I have something new or unique to add, I will. If not, I prefer to read and learn- you know, lurk.

In this topic of discussion, I do have something to add to the discussion that is different or unique. I do have not only a personal stake in this because of my relationships with CS and it's staff, but i know things that most here do not either first or 2nd hand- not supposition and misinformation.

You want to have a beer and talk about the weather- fine. Glad to do it. Though my feeling was that it would seem a bit disingenous to try to make nice with those I have called on the carpet for their tyrades and venom aganst CS and LT. Didn't think that the haters would buy it, therefore, I keep my mouth shut on other subjects and post my little rants.

BTW- as much as those here are knife-snobs, I am a beer snob. Don't offer me a Coors Lite. You will have to hear another rant.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

BTW- as much as those here are knife-snobs, I am a beer snob. Don't offer me a Coors Lite. You will have to hear another rant.

Here we have some common ground

 

[DngrRuss1]

Theakston's Old Peculiar- Best beer in the world.

Damn- did I hijak my own thread?

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

maybe. But for good cause.

If I ever run across some Theakston, I will buy it. As it is, I would have to special order it- might be worth the effort though.

 

[DngrRuss1]

Well worth the effort.

Order it. Chill it. Drink it cold. Try not to cry when it hits your tongue.

It is a dark beer, but it is not bitter. It has a strong, sweet, hoppy flavor. Great with food or alone.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Nothing yet. Sorry. Been busy with a life- or a reasonable facsimili (sp) thereof. Small children and a business to run, you know...

Heard anything yet, DngrRuss1? It has been over a month since you began "looking into" whether or not Lynn Thompson participated in the "outing" of Mick Strider's past. Last I heard, you stated that Lynn & CS were not active participants, but rather observers, and that Lynn had been approached by the P.I., and "asked to be part of some action". So, what is the latest?

BTW, where is the "information" you were going to provide in the "Hype vs. Honesty" thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373633

I have not mentioned other knife manufacturers in any negative fashion in my previous posts. I had not planned to. But I am getting some information that I am verifying (to the best of my ability) that might shed some light on some of these other manufacturers that is not very positive.

I wonder if you are willi ng to be just as vicious with other companies when those companies motives and integrity are called into question.

Be patient- I'll have more soon

Or are you a person who just pretends to have information for the sole purpose of defending Cold Steel? Looking forward to your informed insight.

Regards,
3G

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Yeah, I'd say that if you are going to make statements like that, you should follow through. Or was it all hot air?

 

[zenheretic]

Damn. Like looking at a car accident. I really have no need to do it, but I can't stop looking until it is around the corner.

Hours of reading and two different threads (see also Hype vs Honesty if you really want to waste your time) with exactly the same theme.

What have I learned about Cold Steel?
STR used to like them, now not so much. That appears to be the only opinion swayed in about 9 months of posting...too bad it was in the wrong direction.

A lot of words talking about tangible proof. Other than posting a patent from a patent office, I found the rest of the "proof" to be heresay. Ironically that patent is all shiny new and legal...but is still a loophole ripoff of Emerson and apparently Spyderco. (wave and cobra hood). A two for one special. Legal? Yes. Ethical? Not in my book. Thanks for the tangible evidence, without the Cold Steel Quiote I would never have known about the controversies, and with the tangible evidence, I now can make an informed decision.

 

[Cobalt]

Ok, this was very funny. Thanks Code3

Don't forget this, you jagoff.

 

[bladeprince]

I like CS designs in particular the Voyager series of knives. Good bang for the buck and easy to sharpen. Now if they would include s.s. liners and g10 on them they would sell like hotcakes. Put VG10 or AUS10 in them and they couldn't make enough of them. Keep the price point reasonable and a classic would be even better than it already it is.

Boy, agree with you on that one. I bought another Recon 1 when they came out in AUS-8 with G-10 scales. It was a good idea. The Recon 1 is a great knife and the upgrades made it even better.

By the way, who made the first drop point blade? I think just about every company out there has ripped off that design. And why aren't the Japanese sueing everyone for stealing their tanto style point? There is only so much that can be done with a piece of steel with a handle.

Let the companies work out the details between themselves. If there is legal infringment, you can bet that someone will get there hand slapped. My main concern is about a decent price for a quality product and good customer service if there is a problem. If designs could not be "borrowed" or liciensed, innovation would come to screeching halt.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

By the way, who made the first drop point blade? I think just about every company out there has ripped off that design.

The drop point has been around for centuries.

And why aren't the Japanese suing everyone for stealing their tanto style point?

Bob Lum from Oregon was first with the Americanized tanto blade shape.

If designs could not be "borrowed" or licensed, innovation would come to screeching halt.

You are wrong about "borrowed" designs and your response shows a lack of knowledge and possibly character. Developing a design or product and having it patented provides protection for the inventor for several years. This allows the inventor to hopefully recoup the development costs and make a profit. If designs did not have patent protection there would be no incentive to spend the development money and take the chance to make money.

Noobs should spend more time reading and learning so you don't :foot: .

Come up with an orginal idea and I sure your opinion will change.

 

[bladeprince]

The drop point has been around for centuries.

Bob Lum from Oregon was first with the Americanized tanto blade shape.

You are wrong about "borrowed" designs and your response shows a lack of knowledge and possibly character. Developing a design or product and having it patented provides protection for the inventor for several years. This allows the inventor to hopefully recoup the development costs and make a profit. If designs did not have patent protection there would be no incentive to spend the development money and take the chance to make money.

Noobs should spend more time reading and learning so you don't :foot: .

Come up with an orginal idea and I sure your opinion will change.

I really don't like having to use my time to repsond to this kind of crap but your questioning of my character (that was a low blow) and your other responses show you don't know what sarcasm is and didn't understand the other meanings of my post.

I suspect the drop point has been around since the stone age. That's called sarcasm.

Bob Lum didn't "invent" the tanto. He "borrowed" the idea from the Japanese and "Americanized" it. He did not steal the idea or infringe on any patent. There was none. That is what I meant what I said the word "borrow". There was sarcasm in that statement also, that you obviously missed.

And you also seemed to have missed my statement referring to patent infringment: "If there is legal infringment, you can bet that someone will get there hand slapped." I believe that shows my "character", as you put it. Ideas that are not patented can be "borrowed", or, if you prefer, "shared". Patented idea needed to be licensed.

The main point of the post was a bit of sarcasm for some of the CS bashing. One that caught my attention was someone claiming they "stole" the hawbill design. I can go to Home Depot and by a linoleum knife that has a hawkbill shape. This seems to be a "chicken and egg" type of discussion.

Chuckie, next time, try and understand someones post before you attack them with your self righteous BS. I could help you understand more of the meaning behind my post, but I have much better things to do.

But maybe I'm being too hard on you. I did find this quote in Wikiepedia:
Because it is vocally oriented, sarcasm can be difficult to grasp in written form and is easily misinterpreted. To prevent this some people end sarcastic comments on the Internet with an emoticon, emphasize words with italics, bold, and/or underlining (e.g. That's just great), or surround them with a made-up markup language tag, e.g. *sarcasm*, <sarcasm> or <snicker>.

So I see how you could have missed it. But my direct quote about "patent infringment" being wrong was unmisakable. Enough said.

Note to self: That was much better. Usually you ream out people like this. You're making progress.

 

[GibsonFan]

*yawn*
*yawn*
*zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz*

 

[FoxholeAtheist]

Someone WAY earlier asked about people who have had CS products fail to perform. I had a Recon Tanto break in my hand while trying to baton through a birch log.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=360675&highlight=recon+birch

 

[GibsonFan]

foxhole it seems like 10 people say they beat theor CS like hell and it's fine, and one person says "mine failed miserably". This raises serious concerns about their quality control. The story and pics of the guy who compared a TrailMaster, Busse and a CS kukri are here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=409120
You have to scroll down about a page and a half to get to the relevant part. In his test at least, the Trailmaster was the overall winner by what I would call a slim margin.

All things considered though, I just can't find a knife I like as much for anywhere near the price. I'd love a Bagwell Bowie but I'm not about to spend a couple grand, plus I'd like to take delivery sometime this decade. So I gambled my $108 and ordered a TraliMaster.

What the hell, it may turn out to be just what I need... and besides, I've blown more than that amount in a couple hours at a titty bar!

I do have an actual question though: since I'm 99% sure I'm going to rehandle the thing anyway, would it pay to heat up the tang to anneal it while I have it apart? I was thinking that might reduce the chance of faliure at the guard.

edited cuz I found that link and because I type faster than my brain can spell... or something like that.

BTW is my knife here yet?!?!? lol

 

[Keith Montgomery]

The main point of the post was a bit of sarcasm for some of the CS bashing. One that caught my attention was someone claiming they "stole" the hawbill design. I can go to Home Depot and by a linoleum knife that has a hawkbill shape. This seems to be a "chicken and egg" type of discussion.

The design that CS was accuses of stealing is not the hawkbill, but the reverse S that is used on the Spyderco Civilian. That blade shape is patented by Spyderco. From what I understand, everything was worked out between the two companies, but CS should get permission to use a patented design before they bring a knife with that design to market. It is the ethical thing to do.

From all of my experiences with the Trailmaster, I have found it to be an excellent knife.

 

[orthogonal1]

As regards the Trail Master, I've been using one since the mid 80's for all sorts of rather abusive stuff and it's still going strong.

 

[GibsonFan]

I've also noticed that virtually all of the reported catastrophic failures involved using a hard-tempered, thin piece of razor sharp steel to split or chop a fairly substantial log.
Mention that to any carpenter, woodworker or shop teacher and see what they have to say about it
There are very specific reasons why an axe or splitting wedge are designed, constructed and perhaps most important, heat-treated differently than a hunting/fighting/survival knife.
Just my two cents... like I said earlier, I don't throw that kind of abuse at my knives. Based on all the info I've learned here and my own preferences, I ordered a TM yesterday and I'm confident I'll be happy with it.
I'll also say that I appreciate the info from all of you. Very glad I stumbled across this forum

P.S. Any thoughts on annealing the tang like I asked earlier?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I've also noticed that virtually all of the reported catastrophic failures involved using a hard-tempered, thin piece of razor sharp steel to split or chop a fairly substantial log.

The knife are not hard-tempered and thin pieces of steel. They are heavily drawn, and very thick sections of low alloy tool steel. You don't need to spring draw or anneal such steel to make it tough enough to resist being hit with a piece of wood. You can do such batoning with much thinner stainless steel knives.

There are very specific reasons why an axe or splitting wedge ...

Axes intended for heavy hammer and wedges are drawn at the poll to allow them to take severe impacts. You don't drive a wedge with a small piece of 2x2. you use a large maul.

-Cliff