CS- love 'em, hate 'em- time to address some issues

[Rat Finkenstein]

I've also noticed that virtually all of the reported catastrophic failures involved using a hard-tempered, thin piece of razor sharp steel to split or chop a fairly substantial log.
Mention that to any carpenter, woodworker or shop teacher and see what they have to say about it
There are very specific reasons why an axe or splitting wedge are designed, constructed and perhaps most important, heat-treated differently than a hunting/fighting/survival knife.
Just my two cents... like I said earlier, I don't throw that kind of abuse at my knives. Based on all the info I've learned here and my own preferences, I ordered a TM yesterday and I'm confident I'll be happy with it.
I'll also say that I appreciate the info from all of you. Very glad I stumbled across this forum

P.S. Any thoughts on annealing the tang like I asked earlier?

Just because you choose to believe that something is abusive does not make it so. Splitting wood with a knife and a baton is not abuse, unless the knife in question has a serious flaw in design or heat treat.

Or I take it you carry a bunch of wedges, and an axe everywhere you go?

Actually try it sometime, it is quicker and a more efficient use of energy to split wood with a knife than using a sledge hammer and wedges. your trailmaster should work well for this task. Annealing the tang might be a good idea, since that is the failure point for all the cold steal defects.

Making excuses for a factory defect is a bad idea- I would rather trust my knives unconditionally than baby them because they might be fragile and flawed.

 

[Bors]

Just because you choose to believe that something is abusive does not make it so. Splitting wood with a knife and a baton is not abuse, unless the knife in question has a serious flaw in design or heat treat.

Or I take it you carry a bunch of wedges, and an axe everywhere you go?

Actually try it sometime, it is quicker and a more efficient use of energy to split wood with a knife than using a sledge hammer and wedges. your trailmaster should work well for this task. Annealing the tang might be a good idea, since that is the failure point for all the cold steal defects.

Making excuses for a factory defect is a bad idea- I would rather trust my knives unconditionally than baby them because they might be fragile and flawed.


Just because you choose to believe that something is abusive does not make it so. Splitting wood with a knife and a baton is not abuse, unless the knife in question has a serious flaw in design or heat treat.

Or I take it you carry a bunch of wedges, and an axe everywhere you go?

Actually try it sometime, it is quicker and a more efficient use of energy to split wood with a knife than using a sledge hammer and wedges. your trailmaster should work well for this task. Annealing the tang might be a good idea, since that is the failure point for all the cold steal defects.

Making excuses for a factory defect is a bad idea- I would rather trust my knives unconditionally than baby them because they might be fragile and flawed.

OK now this is one long thread,
I agree with Rat Finkenstein


Ok first of all I own quite a few Cold Steel products and they have to date performed well. LT goes to great lengths to show the world how tough his knifes are however he does speak out of both sides of his mouth.

In one hand, he demonstrates that you can drive your knife through car doors, dismantle the wall of a house etc. On the other hand, he expressly states that this is, “Gross” abuse of your knife and will “VOID” the warranty.

Give me a break I bought the knife because I am one of those people who from time to time uses their tool outside of the design parameters. This is why I tend to buy over engineered tools.
I have not had to baton/hammer my trail master through wood yet but personally, I feel this is well with in the design parameters of the knife given the abuse it is given on the “Proof” video. If the knife fails then in my mind LT is not truthfull in how “Tough” his knifes are.

Originally Posted by GibsonFan
I've also noticed that virtually all of the reported catastrophic failures involved using a hard-tempered, thin piece of razor sharp steel to split or chop a fairly substantial log.
Mention that to any carpenter, woodworker or shop teacher and see what they have to say about it
There are very specific reasons why an axe or splitting wedge are designed, constructed and perhaps most important, heat-treated differently than a hunting/fighting/survival knife.

There is a tool in carpentry call a froe and maul. It is used for splitting wood usually shingles but it can be used for other things as well. It’s generally much thinner in cross section than a trailmaster. The froe is battened through the log with the mallet; some people use a steel hammer. Currently I have 2 GransFors Bruks axes out in my shop that will shave the hair off of your arm which are designed for cutting down trees. The edge profile is maybe a little thinner than my trailmaster and the edge is as hard or harder. If the trail master cannot be beat through a log with a mallet or a steel hammer then it is grossly misrepresented in its abilities. I don’t feel it’s unreasonable to subject this knife to hard use, after all this is how it is marketed.

 

[GibsonFan]

The knife are not hard-tempered and thin pieces of steel. They are heavily drawn, and very thick sections of low alloy tool steel.

Cliff:

I apolgize for my technically-incorrect description. I've read many of your posts, Cliff, and I'm quite certain you are more knowledgeable than I in these matters. I described knives as thin and hard because compared to an axe, they certainly are.

Perhaps inadvertantly, you illustrated my own point better than I did. I completely agree that the proper equipment for splitting wood is a maul and wedge.

Many people expect one knife to do all things at all times; I am not one of those people. I wouldn't want to clean a trout with a Bowie any more than I'd want to build a house with my kid's Lego's.

I'm not knocking anyone who is seeking the "perfect knife". I doubt such a thing exists, but it's a lofty goal and leads to innovation.

 

[GibsonFan]

Just because you choose to believe that something is abusive does not make it so. Or I take it you carry a bunch of wedges, and an axe everywhere you go?

lol no, I do not carry an axe and wedges everywhere I go. Nor have I ever found myself in a survival situation where all I had was a knife and a desire to split 10" logs. Why would you need material that heavy in a survival situation anyway? If I'm cold and tired I doubt I'd have much interest in setting up a lumber mill.

I fully understand the rigorous expectations you gentlemen have; I respectfully submit that for my needs, that level of performance is not necessary for me to defend myself, gather firewood or build a lean-to.

BTW this will be my first CS knife and probably my last, since it's the only design of theirs that I really like. I don't give a flying fart whether LT is a jackass or not. You're all quite correct that Cold Steel's advertising is over-the-top, even ludicrous. I choose to ignore their BS hype and decide for myself. Some of Gibson's advertising campaigns (and paint schemes! gawd-awful ugly, some of 'em) during the 80's were absolutely retarded, but it didn't change the fact that their guitars are just what I like. Of course, from a consumer standpoint, debunking ad claims is a valuable and helpful pursuit.

The whole discussion is extremely subjective by its very nature. I just want a decent knife for the money, and based on weighing the pros and cons that you all have put forth, I think I've found it.

Once again, thanks for your input, I learn something everytime I come here. Including what a froe and maul is, and how it is made/used.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I described knives as thin and hard because compared to an axe, they certainly are.

Ironically they are actually more obtuse and thicker at the edge than felling axes and also through the bit matching the thickness of the knife. Most high end axes are also very hard, the bit edge on Bruks and the Cold Steel blades are of similar hardness. For using metal on metal impacts you generally want other steels, or a heavy draw to spring temper, but wood on metal should not be an issue for 50100-B or similar steels.

Nor have I ever found myself in a survival situation where all I had was a knife and a desire to split 10" logs. Why would you need material that heavy in a survival situation anyway?

Generally it isn't 10, but 2-4". Fresh wood of that size won't burn (most types) and seasons very slowly. However if it is split up into pencil sized bits then they will burn (though poorly) and they season very quickly. Splitting wood is also useful as a first step in shaping and in general construction. Often times after heavy rain then the outside of deadfall is wet but the inside is dry so splitting it allows dry tinder to be obtained even in harsh conditions.

-Cliff

 

[DngrRuss1]

For those who seem to be waiting:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3852509&postcount=132

Patience....

 

[zenheretic]

For those who seem to be waiting:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3852509&postcount=132

Patience....

What does linking to your even older and even more worthless thread show us other than you are still full of BS? An especially relevant question as that thread only links to this thread (not to mention the only worthwhile points in that thread is a mature debate between Cliff and STR) At least this thread had one tiny bit of verifiable evidence...even if you took over a month to get your facts straight. Not to mention that showing us a loophole patent doesn't really help your argument.

Your entire existence revolves around the premise that since you are you and you know CS personally you are right. You are simply full of hot air. But thanks for dredging up all this information about Cold Steel. I was totally in the dark on the matter until I stumbled on these threads. Now I'll never buy their stuff. That was your goal right? For us who didn't have an opinion before to form an opinion off of your "knowledge"?

 

[GibsonFan]

I ordered a TM from bladematrix over the weekend, and got this email from them today:

Bladematrix - Medieval Weapons <sales@bladematrix.com> wrote:

JAMES, THE CS16CB IS ON BACK ORDER . COLD STEEL HAS BEEN HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THE STEEL AND ARE NOW TELLING US , THAT THEY HOPE TO HAVE THEM READY BY DECEMBER..WOULD LIKE LIKE TO KEPT THIS ON BACK ORDER AND CALL OR EMAIL YOU WHEN THEY COME IN. OR DO YOU WANT A REFUND NOW. THANKS KENDAL D.

So..... maybe I'll look on Ebay or something

 

[GibsonFan]

Generally it isn't 10, but 2-4".-Cliff

Right you are, Cliff; I was referring specifically to pics ppl have posted on this forum ,where they were trying to split 10" logs, and I think that's just plain silly. I fully agree that 2-4" small trees are perfect for campfires and lean-to's, and a knife that failed to deal with them would indeed be very disappointing.

Thanks for the further education about steel etc. And no, I'm not being sarcastic I'm here to learn, as well as shoot my mouth off.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Maybe this has something to do with the Camillus Strike? Interesting.
Guess they are haveing trouble finding a manufacturer who can crank out a quality substitute.

If Camillus goes under, CS might be up $#*! creek.

 

[DaveH]

The Camillus issue is interesting. I would expect that even more (eg 100%) of their knives will be manufactured in Taiwan or China.

I fully expect there will be a new marketing push by cold steel that will go something like this "We have changed our manufacturing to give you a higher quality knife. ... our new never used in knives before 410* stainless has shown to the the BEST quality steel ever used in making knives in the history of knives"

* Or some other even cheaper then 420 steel.

Also I'm sure that the prices will continue to go up.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Right you are, Cliff; I was referring specifically to pics ppl have posted on this forum ,where they were trying to split 10" logs, and I think that's just plain silly.

That's a difficult task with a Recon Tanto or similar. You would have to take it down piece by piece taking slabs off the sides and using them to carve wooden wedges. I don't see much reason for that outside of recreation or amusement, then again most local wood is fairly small. Maybe 10" is small wood for those guys, I would not mind living there if that was the case. I'd want a maul and at least two decent metal wedges for that size of wood.

-Cliff

 

[Confederate]

...after reading several CS threads I don't know what to think. I will just continue to think what i thought before I read all this stuff. which is that their DVD is hype, and I will continue to be distrustful of their steels they give special names to (carbon v, san mai)....

Cold Steel is just a knife company. They don't use GREAT steels, but they make decent knives at decent prices. And they don't use crappy steels. If they were a car company, they'd probably be Honda. I had a friend once who told me that if I got one Honda every 10 years and sold one every five years that with a total of two cars that I'd never have any car problems. And I think he was right.

Buy a Cold Steel and don't worry about it. They make good knives and you don't have to sweat any junko steels (420j2, AUS-4).

 

[Andy_CN]

The Camillus issue is interesting. I would expect that even more (eg 100%) of their knives will be manufactured in Taiwan or China.

Camillus Cutlery produces a lot of quality Carbon steel blades.

Is there enough production capacity available in China and Taiwan
for Carbon steel blades?

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Camillus Cutlery produces a lot of quality Carbon steel blades.

Is there enough production capacity available in China and Taiwan
for Carbon steel blades?

They have tons of production capacity, the real question is- will they be able to match the overall quality of Camillus (occasional defective heat treat aside) Of course, I am hoping Camillus will bounce back (for their own sake, I don't care about Cold Steel)

Buy a Cold Steel and don't worry about it. They make good knives and you don't have to sweat any junko steels (420j2, AUS-4).

They already use 420, which is every bit as junko as AUS-4, or worse.

 

[GibsonFan]

I'd want a maul and at least two decent metal wedges for that size of wood.-Cliff

yup, that was exactly my point. I guess if I'd been more clear earlier it would have saved time....

Now my problem is to snag an "old" Trailmaster real quick brefore they cost $300 or start getting made out of pot metal or something

Anyone got one for sale? It don't hafta be pretty.

EDIT: I emailed CS asking about availability... I'll let y'all know how they are to deal with on this issue.

P.S.: I agree with Rat Finkenstein that it would be a shame to see another American manufacturer (Camillus) get squished under the pressure of cheap Asian labor. I'm a blue collar guy currently on layoff myself, and this whole issue is startin' to make me REAL nervous... but that's a whole 'nother thread.

P.P.S. : I responded to the email from bladematrix that told me they were out of stock, and asked them to refund me ( I paid via PayPal ). Well, I just got another email from Pay Pal that they did already refund the full amount to my account. Keep in mind, I only ordered it yesterday! So at least I have something good to say about bladematrix's customer service... they seem to be right on top of it.

 

[glockdad40cal]

love the knives/hate the tool who runs the company.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Now my problem is to snag an "old" Trailmaster real quick brefore they cost $300 or start getting made out of pot metal or something

Anyone got one for sale? It don't hafta be pretty.

Post in the wanted to buy section of the exchange.

 

[bladefrienzy]

I have a legitimate question then since some here are " in the know" with CS. Why did they Vet.Hawk my wife bought me for Christmas have a direct, blatant rip off of A.T.C. . The Oxblood colored leather sheath is plainly stamped
American Tomahawk Company. I even called the retailer to see if his remaining stock did, thay all seem to have this.

Also the head of the Hawk has about a 30% warp to it when looking down it's "spine" . When I called CS they told me this wasn't a flaw. In the same breath they could not do anything about it, but if I had purchased it from them (special projects) they would have replaced it.

This is not trivial rumors, personal experience, I made several calls to CS, to no avail. I hung the hawk on the wall, and sold or traded the few remaining items I owned from them.

This is not to mention personal traits I have seen written proof of refering to LT's personal traits towards other members of the knifemaking community.

Sorry , but I will never give them a penny of mine again. Not even for the new plastic ball bat, LOL. Rant off. Thanks for listening, Steve

 

[GibsonFan]

Post in the wanted to buy section of the exchange.

Yup, I did post it there too. Sorry if I was out-of-line to ask here?

Bear with me, I'm new here but I'm starting to get the hang of it