CS- love 'em, hate 'em- time to address some issues

Cool. I didn't take it as an attack on me. I just didn't need to say LT was possibly all kinds of piratical twat without checking the facts for myself. Which I will do. Thanks for the docs.
 
You may recall I ordered a TM last weekend, found out they were on backorder and emailed CS on Monday to ask about it. Since then I've read some info/rumors that Camillus makes CS's CarbonV stuff and is in danger of shutting down.

So, I got an email back from CS today; is four days reasonable for this kind of request? Anyway, here's the email I got, in its entirety:

*********************************************************

Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:51:30 -0700
From: "Customer Service" <customerservice@coldsteel.com>
To: gibsonfan (yes, I edited my address. If you want it bad enough I'm sure you know how to find it)
Subject: Re: TrailMaster availability

Hello,

The best bet that you may want to try E-Bay. It is going to be very
hard to find a Trail Master in Carbon V. Yes we are having dificulties
at this time but will soon be resolved by the end of this year.

Regards,
Kristi

*********************************************************
*shrug*

Must be something pretty serious going on if they admit to a lowly consumer that they're pretty much FUBARed, on this particular model, at least. (I didn't ask about other knives made from Carbon V, but ya gotta figure...)

"Go look on Ebay instead of ordering from us or our dealers"?!? I dang sure never heard that from a manufacturer/marketer before. (On the plus side, at least they're not promising product they can't deliver)

Plus, six months seems like a lonnnnng time to just NOT MOVE any product from a fairly prominent line.

I doubt they make 'em one-by-one as orders come in (*sarcasm*), so this must have been brewing for sometime.

This sucks... I foresee traders gouging prices and making bank on old stock while Americans lose their jobs to overseas labor and consumers end up with lower-quality knives. (Total speculation, I hope I'm wrong!)

P.S. Once again, I could care less about the CS ethics/marketing/etc. controversy on this thread, I just wanted to buy a good US-made knife at a fair price. Thank goodness I found one from a private party who isn't gouging me.

BTW dangermouse or whatever your name is, got any inside info on THIS issue? I'd love to hear an insider's explanation and reassurance.
 
Phew. What a thread!

I own several Cold Steel products and they seem OK.

I have never seen "the" video, but it seems over the top by description.

I do not know enough to form an independent opinion about "rip-offs" of knife designs.

BUT:

digitalrebelttu said:
. . .
Since starting production in January 2001, American Tomahawk has sold several thousand axes. The Army bought 60% of the company's axes, which cost $100 to $300. (American Tomahawk's axes were used in a throwing contest in the Best Ranger Competition in April.) "Paramilitary individuals," as Prisco describes survivalists and sportsmen, bought the rest.


A 33-year-old former professional knife and tomahawk thrower, Prisco decided to "resurrect" the American Tomahawk late last year after he had a "vision of how to help a man who was wronged." The wronged man was Peter LaGana, an ex-Marine who designed and manufactured the Vietnam Tomahawk until 1970 when military orders stopped. LaGana gave Prisco permission to make his tomahawk and use his defunct company's name. The 74-year-old, who lives in a mining town in western Pennsylvania, serves as a consultant. . . . "


From this article, it looks like Lagana only manufactured his original hawk from 1966 until 1970 and then the company went under (which is what I recall from other sources as well). Then the new ATC started up again in 2001.

Ok, so now if you go to the US Patent and Trademark Office and do a search for the mark "American Tomahawk Company" you will find this:

Word Mark AMERICAN TOMAHAWK COMPANY
Goods and Services IC 008. US 023. G & S: tomahawks. FIRST USE: 19920228. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920228
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Design Search Code
Serial Number 74163567
Filing Date May 6, 1991
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1B
Supplemental Register Date October 19, 1992
Registration Number 1763841
Registration Date April 6, 1993
Owner (REGISTRANT) COLD STEEL, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 3036-A SEABORG AVENUE Ventura CALIFORNIA 93003
Attorney of Record Marvin E. Jacobs
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "TOMAHAWK COMPANY" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register SUPPLEMENTAL
Affidavit Text SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20040710.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20040710
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

So Cold Steel registered the mark in 1993, 8 years before ATC began business again. Now, I don't have a dog in this hunt and I don't care if everyone argues this for the next 10 years but CS legitimately holds the trademark to ATC and that is that.
Click to expand...



One obtains property rights in a trademark ONLY by offering the product(s) associated with the mark in commerce. Registration confers no rights whatsoever, but is notice as a matter of law to the world (can't claim they didn't know of the claim of exclusive right by the registrant).

So the issue of fact is this: which company first, and continuously thereafter, used the mark "American Tomahawk Company" in marketing tomahawks?

Anyone know?
 
Since I already ordered mine, I'll share that if anyone has a C&R FFL and has it on file with MidwayUSA, they still have a few of the CS Carbon V blades left (like recon tanto, srk, oda, etc... no trailmasters left though) and you get dealer price. If the rumors about Camillus are true, then we should all be in mourning.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Phew. What a thread!

I own several Cold Steel products and they seem OK.

I have never seen "the" video, but it seems over the top by description.

I do not know enough to form an independent opinion about "rip-offs" of knife designs.

BUT:





One obtains property rights in a trademark ONLY by offering the product(s) associated with the mark in commerce. Registration confers no rights whatsoever, but is notice as a matter of law to the world (can't claim they didn't know of the claim of exclusive right by the registrant).

So the issue of fact is this: which company first, and continuously thereafter, used the mark "American Tomahawk Company" in marketing tomahawks?

Anyone know?
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know the direct answer. The CS trademark is on the supplemental register, so it is not quite distinctive enough to merit full protection. The online records don't go back quite as far as the '60's, so who knows if Lagana has trademarked the name back then and abandoned it or sold it or what. The tm is good for 10 year renewable terms, so if Lagana had tm'd ATC back in 1966 or so, the tm would have been considered abandoned in '76 or so. I would suppose that the PTO examiners would not have allowed the registration from CS if there was an ATC tm already. Who knows, it's an academic discussion really. I know that the cs hawks that I have bought in the last couple of years had ATC stickers on them, which if that had always been the case (I recall buying one without it) then that is enough for being in commerce. But it is interesting that CS doesn't really use the tm in its advertising at all. Who knows, maybe there is some agreement between the 2 companies that we don't know about dividing up who can use the mark and when.

Registration does confer rights beyond constructive notice: 1) allows the registrant to overcome any claims by later users of good faith 2) allows access to federal courts without other subject matter jurisdiction 3) confers the statutory right of incontestability. Also, there is an intent to use provision that allows an application for registration so long as there is a bona fide intention to use the mark in commerce (15 U.S.C. sec 1051(b)).
 
When it comes to intangible property like a brand name, what the law says and what a person might feel is right are not always the same....

Peter LaGana founded the American Tomahawk Company, and made tomahawks for a while, and then stopped. Years later Andy Prisco got together with him and they started making them again. Naturally Peter used the name American Tomahawk Company -- it was his name as far as he knew anything about it -- he had founded the company; he had never sold the name.... Then a while later, totally out of the blue as far as he was concerned, another fellow came out of nowhere claiming he owned the name now. He had registered a claim to Peter's name when Peter wasn't looking. Now he was selling tomahawks that looked a lot like Peter's design and he was putting Peter's company name on them and he was claiming that was legal.

Before it came to trial some of the people who were involved with the company posted about what was going on here on Bladeforums. Their viewpoint was that Lynn Thompson was trying to steal Peter LaGana's company name from him, and trying to defraud the public by selling them imitations of Peter's tomahawks with an imitation of Peter's brand, and some of them expressed that viewpoint with feeling.

The outcome was the judge decided that was legal, and the other fellow really does own Peter's name now and Peter no longer has any legal right to it.
 
digitalrebelttu said:
Registration does confer rights beyond constructive notice: 1) allows the registrant to overcome any claims by later users of good faith
Click to expand...
Because the subsequent user cannot claim he/it did not know of the prior registration and claim of exclusive right, having notice of prior use as a matter of law.

2) allows access to federal courts without other subject matter jurisdiction
Click to expand...
Absolutely true, and saves state judges from having to learn about fairly arcane law. But it does not go to the merits of any dispute.

3) confers the statutory right of incontestability.
Click to expand...
No. Registration PLUS five years use after registration confers so-called "incontestibility" (Which is not really. It may be contested and defeated under certain circumstances. See, for example, "functionality."), because any other claimant had notice of the use and failed to contest. A basic concept is that the claimed owner of a mark must defend it when he has knowledge of use by another not licensed to use. Here, the notice is as a matter of law.

Also, there is an intent to use provision that allows an application for registration so long as there is a bona fide intention to use the mark in commerce (15 U.S.C. sec 1051(b)).
Click to expand...
Which confers no rights without actual use.

Points noted, Cougar. The purpose of the Lanham Act is two-fold: 1) to protect the public from confusion about whose product they are buying; 2) to protect the property of a user in the user's mark. No use. No right. And, if a generation plus had gone by with no use, no confusion - except for old knifeknuts who THOUGHT they knew who American Tomahawk Co. was. :(
 
Cougar Allen said:
The outcome was the judge decided that was legal, and the other fellow really does own Peter's name now and Peter no longer has any legal right to it.
Click to expand...

Which is one reason organizations like the Mafia got started....
 
3Guardsmen said:
Information that is still outstanding:
-The lack of integrity on the part of other knife companies.
-Proof of CS's lack of involvement (financial) in the background investigation on Mick Strider.

The ball is in your court.

Best wishes,
3G
Click to expand...

As to the integrity issue- the example I later referred to (in this thread) is the Mick Stryder issue. In previous posts on other threads (too lazy to find them now) some haters have made statements like, "I won't buy from CS because LT has no integrity. I will stick with makers like Stryder."

I pointed out the hypocracy of said statement since Stryder's "integrity" is questionable at best. LT doesn't make any claims about his history or resume' that aren't factual and honest. He didn't build a business off of a misrepresentation- but his integrity is bogus whereas Stryder's is not? I don't see it.

As for the financial involvement- I am still looking into it. I heard from LT himself that he was not financially involved and that he was actually approached by parties involved to participate. He chose not to, though his name was smeared afterward. I need info from others outside of CS in order to satisfy you guys. But I wonder why, since afterall I am a liar and a shill and my word is suspect.:rolleyes: Why should I rush to satisfy the haters? I've got a life (ever heard of those?), it's a busy one, and I will get to it when time permits. If you notice, many if not most of my posts are quite late at night when info gathering is not optimum.

But, keep it up my CS hating friends. Hammer away at me. Call me names and belittle my integrity. I am only trying to level the playing field, but that is not what you want. So who really looks like the bigger doofus?
 
WeaselBites said:
Yep. Sounds like the guy posting here on behalf of ATC back in '02-'03 left out the small fact that ATC had been out of business for 30 years, and CS registered the trademark in the meanwhile. Way in the meanwhile. That's very clear cut, and CS's conduct in this matter was above board, and I wonder how it is that ATC's (seemingly deliberate) mischaracterization of the issue flew here with so much sympathy and no rebuttal, at least not in the thread devoted to that topic. Granted, someone somewhere probably mentioned the facts, but how many pages of irrelevant flames would I have to read through? Is this how the forums work-- bury the facts in an avalanche of crap?

'Course, I know how to do research, having worked as a university reference librarian for 12 years... guess I just wanted to hear it straight from someone who says he knows the folks involved. Plus laziness. Never again.

Thanks for the info, and I retract all my unfounded speculations on the conduct of LT and his company.
Click to expand...

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Again, while my goals were not to convert anyone, I am glad that someone can hear an opposing view- see a few facts- and make a reasonable and educated conclusion based on FACTS. Not bile and hatred.

I said as much (though without the facts from the patent office and an attached article) and was called names, and CS and LT continued to be chastised. Notice in the posts after this information, there are still those who refuse to admit that CS might not be in the wrong here. The name was avaialable, hade been for 22 YEARS, and they legally paid for it and owned it. CS does lots of research before naming any knife or line of products to make sure that no one owns the name. CS pays their legal team to insure that something like this doesn't happen to them. Why is it that if CS takes those steps to insure that they don't step on anyone toes and that they don't see legal action, why are they wrong to expect others to do the same when THEY OWNED THE NAME? I know you guys would have liked to see LT just give the name away out of the goodness of his heart, even though he had been paying to own the name for many years. But c'mon- he is a business man and expected it to be handled in a businesslike manner. If not, why then can't CS use the name in question? THEY OWN IT.

I know, I know- what the hell do I know. I can't be believed, right?:jerkit:
 
DngrRuss1 said:
Why should I rush to satisfy the haters? I've got a life (ever heard of those?), it's a busy one, and I will get to it when time permits. If you notice, many if not most of my posts are quite late at night when info gathering is not optimum.
Click to expand...

It sounds like it is way too much effort for you. You have a life, so why don't you go live it? You were the one that came on here and posted that you were going to provide all this info. You were the white knight coming to the defense of Cold Steel. If you don't have the time, or don't want to take the time to do what you posted you would do, then don't, but knock it off with the, I've got a life and I'll get to it when I feel like it schtick. Just go live that life and leave all the pathetic haters to wallow in their self deception.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
It sounds like it is way too much effort for you. You have a life, so why don't you go live it? You were the one that came on here and posted that you were going to provide all this info. You were the white knight coming to the defense of Cold Steel. If you don't have the time, or don't want to take the time to do what you posted you would do, then don't, but knock it off with the, I've got a life and I'll get to it when I feel like it schtick. Just go live that life and leave all the pathetic haters to wallow in their self deception.
Click to expand...

I'm not the one who pulled up this thread and an older one asking me what's next. Where have I been? Where's the bombs I promised? Many of those questions from "Hype vs. Honesty" I ALREADY ANSWERED in this thread.

Then I am repeatedly asked over the last several days why I haven't added more. I gave an answer. Folks didn't like the answer and asked again or badgered me for the answer. Well, asking the question again or hammering me does not change the answer. That is one of the definations of insanity- performing the same task or asking the same question expecting the outcome to change.

I like it here on BF. I have read a lot of information that has proven useful and interesting. But, I do not appreciate being told by a bunch of internet whiners how to spend my time and then piss and moan about it when I refuse.

In a nutshell- don't tell me what to do- you will only be dissapointed. Engage with me and let's have some fun. Badgering me gets you nothing.
 
DngrRuss1 said:
I like it here on BF. I have read a lot of information that has proven useful and interesting. But, I do not appreciate being told by a bunch of internet whiners how to spend my time and then piss and moan about it when I refuse.
Click to expand...

It was you that posted you were going to give us all this information. I really don't give a rat's behind if you do or don't, but as far as I am concerned it would make more sense to post something when you have the information, not announce that you will be giving us information soon and then not do it. Why bother?
 
Posted on the thread Hype vs. Honesty- edited to match this thread

Wow-
Okay- let's try to sort this out. On Nov. 18, 2005, I started the Hype vs. Honesty thread. On the first post, I said "I'll have more soon". I then posted more on that thread with what info I had, as well as just debating the points of other posters until December.

I started this thread on April 23rd, 2006 with a rather long rant with, guess what, "more" than I had on the previous thread.

Now for those of you who didn't do well in school, April of 2006 comes after December of 2005. Therefore I did fulfill what I said I would do. I have since posted on this thread with more facts and debate, but on July 16th, 2006, 3Guardsman pulled the previous thread up, pulled a quote from the FIRST post, and implied that I had just left it at that. Well, I hadn't. I am still here. I did exactly what I said I would do- maybe not moutains of expose' but I didn't promise mountains.

C'mon guys. If you are going to slam me and my motives- at least get the chronology straight. BTW, chronology is not a superhero, is not a new "supersteel", and was not patented by Enrie Emerson. It is an understanding of how time is measured... just FYI
 
First of all...........

DngrRuss1 said:
I know that many of the knuts here are quite particular about their purchases and collections. I understand that many of you are fans of one company or designer over another, and no amount of discussion and debate will make you change your mind- like Ford vs. Chevy.

However, I wonder whether or not your loyalties are blind and unswerving, or do things like honesty and integrity really matter when making your choices and forming opinions?

I ask this rather obtuse question for a particular reason. Some of you may recognize my forum handle from other threads. I have defended Cold Steel rather aggresively against the CS haters and detractors. In my defenses, I have noticed words like Honor and Integrity being bandied about rather liberally by the haters when trying to slam CS, it's staff, and it's practices. I am wondering if other companies, the ones that you sing the praises of and rally behind, were showing less honorable or honest practices than you accuse CS of, would you still step in line with them and spew our venom at CS, or would you acknowledge that isn't the devil of the knife industry.

I have not mentioned other knife manufacturers in any negative fashion in my previous posts. I had not planned to. But I am getting some information that I am verifying (to the best of my ability) that might shed some light on some of these other manufacturers that is not very positive.

Again, this thread is addressed more to the CS Haters, not those that maintain an open mind. Those who have a mean gut reaction to CS and like to either poke fun at the staff or make wildly innacurate blanket statements (like CS are a bunch of ripoff artists, their products don't match the hype, etc.) without any real evidence- other than opinion- have always struck me as being one-sided and yet seem to be the loudest voice.

I wonder if you are willi:D ng to be just as vicious with other companies when those companies motives and integrity are called into question.

Be patient- I'll have more soon
Click to expand...

Sure sounds like a mountain to me. Expecialy the part in bold lettering.

But no, you haven't answered anything, as a matter of fact you said in the other thread just a few days ago on 07-17-2006 at 02:17 PM......

DngrRuss1 said:
The best I can give you is "as soon as possible". Let me knock on a few doors and make a few calls. Takes time. But I should have some more soon.

Though, again, the thread I linked above did follow this one, and I addressed some of those issues in that thread. But I will try to get more soon.
Click to expand...

So far all you've done is defend Cold Steal over it's practices. Nothing so far that can relate to your first post on the "hype" thread about other knife manufactures.


Edited to add: So is this all about Mick Strider? Please tell me that all this hype thread is about Mick Strider and Strider knives.
 
If ATC was out of business for over 20 years, then I don't see how resurrecting the mark and a facsimile of the tomahawk could be deceptive.
 
It couldn't be the stuff about Strider, because that was all brought to light on BF long before anything was mentioned here by DngrRuss1.
 
DngrRuss1 said:
C'mon guys. If you are going to slam me and my motives- at least get the chronology straight. BTW, chronology is not a superhero, is not a new "supersteel", and was not patented by Enrie Emerson. It is an understanding of how time is measured... just FYI
Click to expand...

You know exactly what you can do with that patronizing attitude. Looking down your nose at the folks on this forum, is in my opinion, not the right way to get your points across.

You have given us no damning information on any companies that I can find, other than the already well known information on Strider, no matter what chronological order I look at your threads in. If you have, could you please point me in the right direction.
 
DngrRuss1 said:
As to the integrity issue- the example I later referred to (in this thread) is the Mick Stryder issue. In previous posts on other threads (too lazy to find them now) some haters have made statements like, "I won't buy from CS because LT has no integrity. I will stick with makers like Stryder."

I pointed out the hypocracy of said statement since Stryder's "integrity" is questionable at best. LT doesn't make any claims about his history or resume' that aren't factual and honest. He didn't build a business off of a misrepresentation- but his integrity is bogus whereas Stryder's is not? I don't see it.

As for the financial involvement- I am still looking into it. I heard from LT himself that he was not financially involved and that he was actually approached by parties involved to participate. He chose not to, though his name was smeared afterward. I need info from others outside of CS in order to satisfy you guys. But I wonder why, since afterall I am a liar and a shill and my word is suspect.:rolleyes: Why should I rush to satisfy the haters? I've got a life (ever heard of those?), it's a busy one, and I will get to it when time permits. If you notice, many if not most of my posts are quite late at night when info gathering is not optimum.

But, keep it up my CS hating friends. Hammer away at me. Call me names and belittle my integrity. I am only trying to level the playing field, but that is not what you want. So who really looks like the bigger doofus?
Click to expand...

I'd like you to point out, for the record, where I have called you any names? All I did was ask you for the information you promised would be forthcoming. For more info on that, see this: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3861235&postcount=154

Regards,
3G
 
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