CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

[Thomas Linton]

And for everyone who has quoted CS's website and catalog...
Get over it. Those words are advertising copy. Not Gospel.
Look around you at all of the ad copy that you read and don't believe..Lowest prices! Lifetime guarantee! The Best, Latest, Improved!
Why would you want to believe knife ad copy and not the rest?

Eddtide, perhaps I was clumsy in trying to make a point. I, at least, quoted CS's representations about the qualities of the SRK to repond to the contention that batoning is an improper use of the knife because is is abuse. CS says this knife was built for "extreme abuse."

If I am mistaken about your point, and you are arguing that CS' should not be held to its representations, then I guess we simply disagree.


Also, I not believe that the facts presented by the author of this thread entirely eliminate improper technique as at least one factor in this failure. Failure analysis can be complicated. Where was the impact and where the fulcrum and at what angle was the knife held when the "fatal" blow was struck? What blows were struck under what conditions before the final blow? Was there twisting and violent levering in the process? I don't think we know because our author has not returned.

The more robust the blade, the more it will "forgive" poor technique. The weaker the blade, the more good technique is required. As observed many times, good technique often goes all to Hell in survival situations where fatigue, anxiety, injury, cold, hunger, thirst, etc. conspire to reduce judgment and physical performance. That suggests that the "survival" knife should be up to CS' representations, if not actual performance, so we can survive Murphy.

 

[yoda4561]

Peoria,
If you want to believe that a knife of that size and thickness, made of a good carbon steel should not be 100 percent capable of what was being done, then that's fine. I know that there are knives out there, quite frankly including this one, that are. The problem as far as I'm concerned is a defect which occured during the manufacturing process, exacerbated by the tang construction.

 

[Andrew Lynch]

This should not be an argument over knife usage or survival philosophy!

Peoria,
If you want to believe that a knife of that size and thickness, made of a good carbon steel should not be 100 percent capable of what was being done, then that's fine. I know that there are knives out there, quite frankly including this one, that are. The problem as far as I'm concerned is a defect which occured during the manufacturing process, exacerbated by the tang construction.

Exactly.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Surprised that we wonder how a knife came to be embedded in a log up to it's hilt and spine, and obviously not about to go any further? Batonned? No, more like "hammered". Who teaches these concepts? Does this pass for proper use of a knife these days? Which survival schools? Which experts? As one of those "who've never actually done this" . . . .
[D]on't blame the improper tools when they come up short.

SINCE YOU ASKED

Batoning is advocated by, amongst others, John Wiseman, chief survival instructor to the SAS, UK's elite commando force. Batoning is also described as a task for survival knives in Cody Lundin's "98.6, the Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive," a book endorsed by: NASAR (National Assoc. for Search and Rescue); Peter Kummerfeldt; Doug Ritter; John Gookin; John McPherson; Mors Kochanski; David Wescott; Dave Ganci, and the President of the Mountain Rescue Assoc. If you do not recognize at least some of these names, let me assure you that it's a pretty good Whose Who of survival expertise.

Ed. to add: Wiseman cautions against damaging your only knife -- certainly prudent advice.

 

[raker]

Most of the posts seem to think that the "log" was too big for batoning. A 7 inch tree is not what I would call a log and also, the limb was splitting ahead of the blade. I still think it is a defect in the knife.
DaQo'tah, I sincerely hope that the knives you have learned to make by using the high performance criteria would perform to much greater levels of stress than what the knife in question has been subjected to. If they don't, please reread the book and watch the tape again.
To those that have never used a knife in this manner, by hitting it on the back of the blade, steel is harder that wood and will not deform the blade. The broken knife is a CS problem. It would be nice if a representative of theirs would happen to read this and take care of the problem. The owner will probably be back before long to catch up on all the BS and then let us know what he found out when he finally got hold of someone that could answer his questions about the knife and what to do about it. As a knife maker, I can see making a mistake in the heat treat but when that happens, you do it again and get it right, or it is junk. And I do have some junk pieces that remind me to follow the steps.

 

[Peoria46]

SINCE YOU ASKED

Batoning is advocated by, amongst others, John Wiseman, chief survival instructor to the SAS, UK's elite commando force. Batoning is also described as a task for survival knives in Cody Lundin's "98.6, the Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive," a book endorsed by: NASAR (National Assoc. for Search and Rescue); Peter Kummerfeldt; Doug Ritter; John Gookin; John McPherson; Mors Kochanski; David Wescott; Dave Ganci, and the President of the Mountain Rescue Assoc. If you do not recognize at least some of these names, let me assure you that it's a pretty good Whose Who of survival expertise.

Most assuredly, I can tell the difference between batonning and hammering. I can also tell when the wood will split, or just wedge the knife. What say your experts on the performance in the first post? Was that batonning or hammering? I also have an idea who the SAS, UK's elite commando force, are. I hosted a squadron for a stateside romp at Eglin (no really good swamps in the UK, you understand).

 

[Thomas Linton]

Most assuredly, I can tell the difference between batonning and hammering. I can also tell when the wood will split, or just wedge the knife. What say your experts on the performance in the first post? Was that batonning or hammering? I also have an idea who the SAS, UK's elite commando force, are. I hosted a squadron for a stateside romp at Eglin (no really good swamps in the UK, you understand).

Good. Wecome to the Batoning Club. We're past "if" all the way to "how?" And I have no idea what went on here, as noted above, much less (of course)what Mr. Wiseman or Mr. Lundin would say. (Wiseman illustrates "hitting" the knife with a rock. He doesn't seem to use the verb "hammer.") The initial illustration is now a dreaded Red X for me.

 

[boblong2209]

I voted for John Kerry

 

[allyourblood]

I voted for John Kerry

GET OUT.






lol, j/k.

abe m.

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

#6
I think it was a fine knife, a bit of a crappy log-splitter*, but a great knife.

Perhaps if your wrote to the company and asked them, "What knife do you sell, that you suggest I use to split 6 to 8 inch logs with?" you will have the answer?


(* But then again,it probably would have made a crappy tire iron too, a crappy car jack,,,a crappy post pounder,,,,a real crappy alarm clock,,,,and a totally inadequate baby toy)

 

[Jeff Clark]

I don't care if batoning is a good survival technique. I just see it as an activity that broke an example of a particular knife. It just leads me to think a little. If I had to pack something for an emergency what would I want? I start seeing why people seem so interested in laminated or differentially heat treated blades. So when I take a look at the Swamp Rat description of their tempering and inspection process I start to see why there might be extra value in their products. http://www.swamprat.com/specs.html

For most of my purposes I wouldn't need this extra toughness, but sometimes...

 

[OwenM]

Peoria,
If you want to believe that a knife of that size and thickness, made of a good carbon steel should not be 100 percent capable of what was being done, then that's fine. I know that there are knives out there, quite frankly including this one, that are. The problem as far as I'm concerned is a defect which occured during the manufacturing process, exacerbated by the tang construction.

Like Andrew said-EXACTLY.
It's funny how many people think beating a piece of hardened steel into a piece of wood, with a piece of wood, is abuse. Guess they've never done it.
I've done it with much thinner knives, with more fragile steels, plenty of times with no damage. The reason is simple: it isn't that hard on the knife. Like I said earlier, it shouldn't have hurt anything but the coating...

 

[Eric_425]

Like Andrew said-EXACTLY.
It's funny how many people think beating a piece of hardened steel into a piece of wood, with a piece of wood, is abuse. Guess they've never done it.
I've done it with much thinner knives, with more fragile steels, plenty of times with no damage. The reason is simple: it isn't that hard on the knife. Like I said earlier, it shouldn't have hurt anything but the coating...

Yeah. If you own survival knives that can't handle this, you just have crappy knives.

A couple people keep talking about what a tool is designed for.... and that batonning a knife through a big log is just an improvisation for an ax's job.

Survival knives are designed for improvisation!

That's why the knife is over 1/4 inch thick!

That's why they advertise it's toughness! That's why they have vids with some 200 lb guy hanging off of it!

This isn't some 7 inch filet knife. It's a big, thick survival knife, purposefully overbuilt in order to stand up to this sort of thing. This was supposed to be the right tool for the job. If he'd gotten a swamp rat or busse or HI bowie, this wouldn't have been a problem. The knife was at fault. It didn't have the durability to stand up to these sorts of acts, these sorts of acts that it was supposed to be designed for.

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

Perhaps if your wrote to the company and asked them, "What knife do you sell, that you suggest I use to split 6 to 8 inch logs with?" you will have the answer?

 

[Ebbtide]

Thomas said

Eddtide, perhaps I was clumsy in trying to make a point. I, at least, quoted CS's representations about the qualities of the SRK to repond to the contention that batoning is an improper use of the knife because is is abuse. CS says this knife was built for "extreme abuse."

If I am mistaken about your point, and you are arguing that CS' should not be held to its representations, then I guess we simply disagree.

CS's copy is well written with alot of "We believes" and other disclaimers.
Full of answers to questions that nobody asked. Brilliant writing/marketing.
The catalog is not a corporate mission statement. It's a catalog, designed to sell knives. Same thing goes for their ads.
Say the words "Hard Use" to one person and he thinks one thing. Say the same thing to someone else and they have their own opinion.That's the beauty of good copywriting
"Extreme Abuse" Now that makes no sense to me. Abuse by definition is misuse. If the knife were to be designed to be misused, then by design it would be able to handle the abuse. But how can that be abuse if the knife were designed to take it?
Funny thing about knife abuse. If the manufacturer applies the abuse it is OK. If the customer applies the abuse, it is up to the manufacturer to determine whether it is abuse or not.
If we need to disagree, that's fine. I just hate to see people (not necessarily you) swept up in advertising and hype. The hype can work for you and against you. I just can't consider advertising hype as a company's representations. Maybe its the 27 years in the ad biz.
Yeah, that must be it


Raker!
What about yanking laterally on the handle with the blade as it is in the photo?
Would/could/should that break that handle off? How about 4 or 5 times in the same direction?

I don't consider batoning as misuse. I do think that was a big bite for that knife. But the knife shouldn't have broken.

Someone on the page before asked if you feel the knife get stuck.
Yes.
A sense of touch is a beautiful thing. Instead of taking your hardest whack right away, every time, work your way up in force. I have a friend with no sense of touch. 2 speeds, 1 gear: on & off, as hard as he can. After putting a thumb sized ding in my axe (in the photo I posted earlier), I watch what toys he gets to handle.
We have hemlock pine around here. It is very twisty grained & 'stringy' and hard/impossible to split cleanly. My Golok, batonned, did better making kindling than my GB SmFA. The rounds would spit the axe out on the second hit, while the golok more or less cut it's way through.

Its all about the knife. What it can do and what it can't do. Not what the seller sez it can do. And what you can do with it.
This particular knife (IMHO) shouldn't have broken.
I guess it is all up to CS now.

I came to the forums looking for a knife. The RS was the first 3 digit knife that I've ever bought.

 

[yoda4561]

Raker!
What about yanking laterally on the handle with the blade as it is in the photo?
Would/could/should that break that handle off? How about 4 or 5 times in the same direction?

Well, I'm not Raker, but with a 5/16 thick tang that wide, all you should do is find out that your grip isn't as strong as steel

 

[Peoria46]

Good. Wecome to the Batoning Club. We're past "if" all the way to "how?"

Well, Yes. I think that's where we've always been. The message thread has been one of "how much is too much", not an "all or nothing". Batonning is a valid technique up to a point. Many of the questions and discussions have revolved around what is that point. Can you know beforehand, or sometime during the procedure, or not worrying because the knife handles everything put to it. And, if the latter, what attributes characterize a knife that can handle that level of force. The reason that this thread has attracted so much interest, and much concern, is that those who have contibuted to the discussion here have batonned wood with a knife before, in either the same circumstances or for the same purpose.

 

[4 Ranges]

I don't think the issue was ever whether "to baton or not to baton."

Batonning is a legitimate activity.

I think the issue was the SIZE of the specific knife that broke vs. the size of the specific LOG it was being chopped into.

I still believe that the knife was too small for the log it was being chopped into.

 

[SteelDriver]

I think the issue was the SIZE of the specific knife that broke vs. the size of the specific LOG it was being chopped into.

I still believe that the knife was too small for the log it was being chopped into.

How big of a knife do you need for that log?

Did you take a good look at the first photo? If the RS has a 7.5" blade there's at least an inch of blade sticking out on each side. Only about 5" of the blade is stuck in the log. Is that blade too short, too thin, or too narrow?

The user's technique in the photo was to baton slices off the log, which is considerably easier than trying to split it down the middle. He can choose how much he wants to split off at a time. Depending on the skill of the user (as someone already mentioned in this thread), he could do the same job with a much smaller knife.

 

[4 Ranges]

Personally, I'd use a 9" blade. That's just me. Like I've said in previous posts, if you can do it with a nail file, that's awesome for you.

But a bigger blade is my personal preference for this job, as I would personally worry that a smaller blade would break (as in the picture shown).

I think people are getting worked up about my opinions on this because (IMHO), they think that this is what CS will tell nutnfancy. "Wrong job for wrong tool, what were you thinking, you should have used a CS Laredo or CS Khukri. You should have listened to 4 Ranges. No knife refund for you buddy." *as the CS rep laughs an evil laugh in the back, twirling their mustache*

If this is the case, you couldn't be further from the truth. My opinions are based simply on what I would personally use for this type of job.