CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

[Peoria46]

He didn't continue because the knife broke. Please go back and read what Nutnfancy wrote (quoted in my post above). The technique requires the user to maintain downward pressure on the handle during batoning. He did not run out of blade, as "Most of the hits were on the front of the blade protruding from the log...." If the blade is protruding from the log, how can he run out of blade to hit? I don't think the handle just happened to fall off, either. It seems from Nutnfancy's picture and account that the RS was already used to split some of the log and that a final blow was required to break the knife.

Disregard NutnFancy's description for a moment and look at the knife. While much of the forward part is visible (protruding?) from the front, the knife spine is level with the rear of the log along it's entire length (except near the tang). The knife is essentially completely embedded. Put yourself at the scene and baton away. How much farther can you drive it? Striking the knife anywhere along the spine means striking the log also--thus, not effect. At some point, the most obvious scenario becomes that of striking the handle. Two choices there: 1. tap the handle from the bottom in an attempt to remove the knife and try again with a little less aggressive bite at the apple, or 2: keep whaling away.

And the log only gets thicker the farther down you go.

 

[collecter]

I've batoned a $8 Mora in exaclty the same manor as was used on this knife but without breaking. I've also used my Kabar many many times in this same way and never broke it.

Some skill is involved but the RS should be able to withstand this type of use.

I'm guessing the knife was a lemon. It would be interesting to know what % of Recon Scouts have failed.

An outdooor knife should withstand this type of use.

Collecter

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

Peoria46
.....good thinking,,,,thats along the same lines as I have been thinking...
well done.

 

[OwenM]

OwenM:

NOT while batoning, true if trying to split the log by prying.

This is like...

TLM

I think it does apply to batoning. The same way it applies to prying. The pressure is just being applied in a different direction. Sure, when you consider that the pressure you have to apply to the handle to keep the blade level while splitting the wood is minimal compared to how much you're putting on the tip by beating on it, I don't think it really matters much. My point was more that a longer blade is not an advantage considering how this knife broke, than that a shorter blade can take more of a beating.
Maybe I could have worded it more clearly, but I was arguing that I don't think the blade length had any bearing in this case.
I'm getting repetitive, so I'll shut up...

 

[Nutnfancy]

I've Created a Spawn
Man this thread is out of control and I about fell out of my chair when I saw the number of responses. Well buckle up because there might be a few more after the following update.

As promised several pages ago, I (Nutnfancy) went out with a buddy and faithful Lab on a 3 day expedition into the Utah backcountry. We got back today. Backpacked several miles into a remote area (for winter). Conditions: Temperature stayed around 25º to 10º depending on time of day. Sleet rapidly turned to snow which lasted almost continously for 48 hours straight, dumping an unexpected 1 1/2 feet (that's right... feet!) of snow on us in a single night with more to follow. Without your snowshoes on, you'd sink to about 4' til you stopped... no kidding. Last day it cleared and got cold. At one point, our tent would have become a snow cave had we not dug it out six times through Day Two's lengthy storm. Avalanche danger with the additional snow went from elevated to extreme and we had to use extreme caution in the trek out. We did so safely and took the safest routing possible(another story). We were on our own up there but extremely prepared with enough equipment, training, technical gear, tools, and provisions for five more days. Laborious firemaking with my aformentioned Sawvivor saw and CS Recon Scout became the chores each day but produced a satisfying cooking and warming fire we kept going the whole time (pics below). Long story short: We stayed happy, warm, safe, and relatively dry during these extreme conditions and got out on right on our schedule

It was in this setting I continued to test my Cold Steel Recon Scout. Again, my friend Bruce's had busted on last month's expedition and I was determined to see if this one would. We didn't get as cold as last month so we lacked the colder temp to test with but I put the blade through a lot of no-kidding work to create our fire. My Kabar Next Gen served as backup. I am pleased to report that my RS passed with flying colors during this three day hard core expedition. Since one picture inexplicably caused so much confusion I'll post many. Check it out:

ABOVE: Gearing up. Mild conditions quickly turned nasty but we went prepared... for everything.

ABOVE: Quickly got into the deep snow. Snowshoes mandatory: Extremely deep snow and avalanche danger demanded serious preparation and intelligent backcountry travel. Serious outdoorsmen only please. We took alternate routes. "Allie the Mountain Dog" blazes the trail.

ABOVE: Might as well be in the Antartica. Roads closed with huge avalanche's and harsh weather. No one's up here in these conditions... except us of course!

ABOVE: Pounded out and leveled tent area in deep snow and tent begins to weather storm on Day 1: MUCH worse to come. Attention quickly turned to fire making with shelter set.

ABOVE and BELOW: Winter camping is hard work and making a fire in wet/snowy conditions takes about two hours of effort: searching for wood (found 1/4 mile away), sawing it, transporting it via sled to camp, splitting it, making kindling, and tendering to a self-sustaining stage. Add to the hard work soaking/freezing conditions, darkness, and 20 mph wind. Come prepared! No huge trees around but we were able to find many 6"-9" dead fir trees we felled and "processed."

ABOVE and BELOW: What any good survival knife should be counted upon to do: batoning through logs. This was night one. Quickly remembered why I got the Cold Steel Recon Scout in the first place: I love its WEDGE-shaped blade as it nearly blasts through the logs. I'm not sure if any other blades have this triangular grind thats uninterrupted from spine to edge. Acts as a wood wedge. Most logs required one hard hit to split. A couple with knots took several good whacks but ALL succumbed.

More to follow, please don't post 'til I can get it all done so it can be continuous.

 

[Nutnfancy]

ABOVE: Buddy helps kindling piles (also a grad of USAF survival school BTW). Note split logs forming base of fire build; used to prevent fire from dousing itself on icy and snowy ground (even though it was cleared as best as possible). All wood shown split by RS. Although capable for all tasks, the Kabar Next Gen just did the small splits for kindling.

ABOVE: Hard work? Yes. Worth it? Totally. CS Recon Scout briefly stands by its handiwork as fire reaches self-sustaining stage.

ABOVE: Fire takes off. Note aformentioned sharp, dry edges of the split wood which enables ignition. Forget the nonsense about collecting twigs and "squaw wood" to make a fire in wintertime... all small ground wood is buried in snow and even if found is completely soaked and frozen... worthless. You have to make your own fuel. Splitting wood enables a fire like this and is really the only way in a backpacking scenario.

ABOVE and BELOW: Daytime fire duties: endless splitting. If you think you can throw wet logs on the fire and be ok you're wrong. They will burn poorly and mostly smolder due to exterior moisture and lack of sharp, burnable edges. Splitting again is the answer, revealing pristine dry wood inside and bypassing the 1/8" soaked exterior. Also no special technique is required: hold blade firmly and whack the knife spine HARD several times pushing on handle. It doesn't make any difference if you twist or tweak... do whatever you need to split that wood and any good knife will take it. Sorry but to say otherwise is complete ignorance from those who don't know what they're talking about (Peoria 46, Ebbtide, 4 Ranges, Daqotah Forge).

ABOVE: CS Recon Scout did just fine. Maybe first breakage WAS a lemon, may it was the cold. Hard to say. I'm not one the technicalities just the performance, thank you.

ABOVE: Firetools: a good survival knife blows away an axe as I've said. Here's your proof of a knife's effectiveness when used properly...

ABOVE:... and here's the reward. A nice cup of hot chocolate and a warm fire. Ahhhhh!

(More coming, hold off on the posts for a bit more...)

 

[Nutnfancy]

ABOVE: Allie stands vigil on the last night.

ABOVE: Hiking out in DEEP snow, potentially dangerous conditions. Weather reports were way off calling for much less snow. No matter, we'll get out... using extreme care.

ABOVE and BELOW: Avalanche aftermaths occuring shortly before our descent in the early am... we heard them come down. We stayed away whenever terrain allowed. Above road is covered with medium slide and that's roads obliterated by a massive slide. At that point, that huge slide loomed over our only way out necissating a improvised rope crossing with the sled; took 1/2 hour for this crossing alone. You see some of its heigth but not its length: slide was over two football fields in length and ripped out 12" thick trees. Last pictures shows the slides origination chute. Having dumped it's load these areas were actually safer than other nearby laden slopes. Safely traversed them all and got the heck of there ASAP. We planned for the worst and pretty much got it.

Anyways it was a memorable mountaineering adventure and one my good friend and I will always remember. We stayed warm and comfortable partly due to our preparations, including having the CS Recon Scout with us. I still have my doubts about the brittleness of Carbon 5 but MY knife held up very well under these extreme circumstances and delivered the performance I would expect.

 

[Nutnfancy]

Also I did read most of the posts and have a couple of quick observations... starting with a rant. First, Peoria 46, Ebbtide, & 4 Ranges, Daqota Forge, you guys are just lost and don't get it. I seriously doubt you have any real survival-type experience judging from what you've said in your numerous postings. (if you do, please post the pictures). Some chose to ignore my previously posted information and often invented outlandish plots and happenings and assigned unfounded blame for a breakage on which you made yourself expert despite your conspicuous absence (like the 'he hit the handle' plot' ). IMO your postings serve only to weaken this thread. Moreover I tried to explain in detail how batoning can and is done, by me and many others here, show you an image of such and yet some persist in saying in can't and shouldn't be done despite never having tried it yourself apparently (??!). It's ok to disagree with something but to elevate yourself to expert with obviously unproven and convuluted information is foolhardy.

But most posters have been awesome. I was especially impressed by Owen M, Yoda 4561, Eric_425, Andrew Lynch, Raker. Gold stars for all. Also I think Steeldriver, Collecter, Thomas Linton, Will P, and Seth Murdoc were right on the money with their thoughts (sorry if I missed some... so many good ones!). You guys get it and I think you understand the proper use of a blade and the common sense methodology of batoning (it ain't rocket science). I'd love to quote you all but I'm out of time for now. But as you several of you said, the RS is fully capable of breaking down a huge log by faceting it as you go and good knives should do good things. Steel vs Wood? Steel should win every time regardless of how it's hit or held or twisted. If it doesn't it's a failure. Good comments... much appreciated.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks for the great pics! I felt like I was there It seems to me that you are more then qualified to know what kind of knife is necessary for this type of activity. Glad to here that your RS worked out for you. Good luck on your future adventures.
Scott

 

[outofgum]

Great posts - informative and quite entertaining. Anyone who has backpacked in those conditions knows the necessity and difficulty of getting a fire going. Seeing some of those picutures though... looked pretty riskying going through some of that build up.

Glad the CS held up this time. Let us know if the other knife ended up being covered under warranty.

 

[OTguy]

Congratulations on a safe and successful trip to the outback, you are a hardy soul. I've followed this thread from the beginning without comment until now. I wanted to digest all the info and think it over before I comment. What I've come up with boils down to this: I'm taking a good hatchet with me, mine's a Wetterling and it'll do.
Why do I say this? I believe that battoning logs into firewood with a knife is a legitimate survival skill, one backcountry hikers like yourself should know and practice, but should only be used as a secondary option when you don't have a hatchet and need a fire. I'll use a hatchet first, if I have the option, every time. As far as a hatchet not being up to snuff for splitting the wood you showed in your picture, I'm having a hard time buying that. I'm positive me and my hatchet could not only give you a run for your money splitting that stuff, but most likely beat you. I split oak, cherry, ash, birch, maple, and hickory into kindling all the time, same size as your log rounds, with no problems at all. None.
You have had military survival training, good training no doubt, and have used it alot on your trips to keep it fresh. This is great, more of us should do that. BUT... I think this has limited your overview of looking at other survival options, as far as tools go. You seem determined to go out with only a big knife and a SAK and make it work under all circumstances. I think you are limiting yourself, tool wise, because of what you were trained a certain way. I hope you don't take this as a negative response, its not meant to be. What I have is a different philosophy of what my set of wilderness tools should be, and for the most part we agree. SAK, yes. Good fixed blade, of couse. Saw, always, most underated tool of the bunch. Hatchet, I'm not going where you go without one, extra wieght be dammed.
I believe that battoning through big rounds of wood will eventually take its toll on any knife, I don't care who makes it. The stress, over time, will set you up for failure sooner or later. A quality hatchet, kept sharp and maintained, will do this work with with no problems for many, many years. Its what they were made to do. Try a Gransfors or Wetterling, they are great tools, worthy of the kind of tests you will put them through. They are the right tools for this job.

 

[not2sharp]

Nutnfancy,

Great post!

If we haven't mentioned it already; a big welcome to the forums.

Utah looks like a beatiful place to visit; and, you did did a good job of reminding me why I moved to Florida.

n2s

 

[TLM]

"I am allways right, damn the evidence and facts"

TLM

80/20 sääntö raskaasti voimassa

 

[Andre]

I'm a bit late getting into this, but I agree with OTguy, use a hatchet to split your firewood. Using a knife for this purpose is a survival technique. To me using a knife for this purpose seems like abuse. Sure, the RS should be able to handle the task, but who could say how and where the knife was struck by Bruce in the first place.

My RS works fine, does not get used to split logs and sorry, I won't let Bruce play with mine

 

[4 Ranges]

Steeldriver et al, my point simply is that I think the RS is a fine knife for OTHER jobs. I've said this before (please read my previous posts). It'll do certain jobs very well, and some people are happy with that. If you're not happy with the RS because THIS ONE can't split logs, then that's cool, get another knife that will. Don't dismiss a knife simply because it can't do ONE particular job that certain posters on this thread believe should not be asked of that knife.

It's misleading to state that a particular knife fails "miserably" simply because it can't do ONE THING. If it fails "miserably", one is led to think that it fails at even the most mundane chores, like slicing paper or slicing bread.

This knife did NOT fail at these mundane chores: it failed at a chore that some of us would not use that particular knife for. It's great for our OTHER chores, just not this one. Let me remind you of a poster on this thread who's son is in Iraq, saw these pictures, and felt that this job was "abuse." He's a soldier in Iraq who probably pries open door hinges with his knife, but heck what does he know, right?

If you want a 7.5" knife that DOES do this chore (as Cliff Stamp astutely pointed out), then GET THAT KNIFE. Use this knife for OTHER chores, but not this particular one. If people want this discussion to be a productive discussion, let's not turn it into another "monthly Cold Steel Sucks thread." It's practically become pathological on this forum to bash this company endlessly. We KNOW they're not the best, let's move on.

And Steeldriver, I hear you on a lot of your points. They're very informative.

And with that, I'm out. Enjoy the rest of this thread. My Randall 12-8 is supposed to come today.

Nutnfancy:

I hope CS gives you a refund. And have a nice day.

Andre:

I don't own an RS, but I have quite a few 7" and 7.5" knives. They all work great too, but they're not for splitting logs. I have a fine HI Khuk for that.

 

[Peoria46]

you guys are just lost and don't get it. I seriously doubt you have any real survival-type experience judging from what you've said in your numerous postings.

I guess that's it, then. Further discussion is pointless.

 

[Dr. Thor]

4 Ranges, did you even read Nutn's post? He showed a tree being totaly dismantled by a Cold Steel Recon Scout, and you continue to insist that it is the wrong tool for the job? Unbelievable!

Thor

 

[cerberus]

Very nice post and ecellent pictures and evidence of what the RS can do. To a Texas, what you experienced is what I call extreme camping and you seemed to do it very well. And, oh, the black lab, nice choice for companion.

Cerberus

 

[Peoria46]

I believe this is substantially 4 Range's argument: a longer blade allows one to baton both sides of the blade, thus reducing stress on the handle. A froe would be a purpose-built example of that principle.

 

[ras]

You guys still don't get it... either that or you are letting your egos get the better of you. Nutnfancy just demonstrated how to dismantle a tree using only a CS RS and you are still calling for axes. I've used an axe a lot and they are great tools for some jobs, but they aren't necessarily the only tools. Considering the snow both going in and out, reducing pack weight is a serious consideration. Excess tools are excess weight that needs to go both ways

As for using a baton to split wood being only a survival technique – I'm not so sure that's true and it shouldn't be stated as a fact. Seems to me that batoning should be considered a camping technique which any decent 7"-10" blade can do – if the user is capable. No doubt it's safer than swinging an axe when you're cold.

BTW, Kudos to Nutnfancy for the excellent series of posts and pics.