CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

[Andrew Lynch]

Alright. We can talk about batoning.

For those who are saying the knife is too small, I would like you to clarify. If you're saying that a longer blade might be a more effective (as in more efficient--quicker and easier) splitter for that size of wood, I would generally have to agree. A longer blade gives you more spine to baton on, for example.

However, if you're saying that a longer blade would be more durable and that this short of a blade is thus inherently weaker I must disagree with you. A longer blade is easier to induce stress on through its greater leverage. Imagine taking a RS and removing five inches from the end of its blade and then trying to break it! It would be darn near impossible. Additionally, the RS didn't break in the blade!!! The blade could have been two inches long or fifteen--it still broke on the tang.

 

[OwenM]

Personally, I'd use a 9" blade. That's just me. Like I've said in previous posts, if you can do it with a nail file, that's awesome for you.

But a bigger blade is my personal preference for this job, as I would personally worry that a smaller blade would break (as in the picture shown).

LMAO. In case you didn't notice, the blade didn't break.
A longer blade would have been able to get a bigger bite of wood. Which means it you'd have to beat it harder to split it. A longer blade would also mean more leverage against the handle juncture, making things worse.
Your posts on this thread are like the blind trying to lead the seeing

 

[4 Ranges]

Owen:

no need to get personal.

I was asked what type of blade I would use for this job. And I answered. Not trying to lead anyone anywhere.

Like I've said for 5 or 6 times now, this is my personal choice. If you can do this job with your 7" or 2" blade, then that's fantastic for you.

But, again, personally, I would use a bigger blade.

 

[4 Ranges]

Andrew:

I think you make interesting points; I agree with a lot of it.

 

[TLM]

OwenM:

A longer blade would also mean more leverage against the handle juncture, making things worse.

NOT while batoning, true if trying to split the log by prying.

This is like...

TLM

 

[Ebbtide]

Well, I'm not Raker, but with a 5/16 thick tang that wide, all you should do is find out that your grip isn't as strong as steel

Raker makes some serious knives. He is one of the knifemakers on my must have list (even though he doesn't know it...well now he does).
At that temperature with the knife yanked repeatedly to the side...it makes me wonder.

Which leads me to the second quote from SteelDriver

The user's technique in the photo was to baton slices off the log, which is considerably easier than trying to split it down the middle. He can choose how much he wants to split off at a time. Depending on the skill of the user (as someone already mentioned in this thread), he could do the same job with a much smaller knife.

That is the technique that I would use...but (you knew there'd be a but, right? )
If those 'slices' were batonned off, wouldn't they be split all the way down to the bottom...end to end? Look at the photo. You can see where the cuts were made before but there is still bark around the bottom.
Then why weren't those pieces split end to end?
It looks to me like the knife was knocked into the wood and yanked out sideways, to tear the chunk of wood off the log/round as indicated by the remaining bark and rip marks in the wood at the bottom of the log/round.

This is why I questioned Raker about yanking on the blade laterally, repeatedly. At those temperatures.
You can't break a paperclip in one shot, but if you yank it back and forth a bunch of times it will break.
See where I'm going here? The break (IMHO) was't caused by batonning, wasn't caused by one yank on the handle but repeated lateral stresses as evidenced by the marks on the log/round.

Bad knife or bad technique or both.
Or maybe marginal knife and bad technique?

I'll leave with the words of Mel Tappan, old school survival guy:
"Don't plan to improvise"

 

[Will P.]

You can't break a paperclip in one shot, but if you yank it back and forth a bunch of times it will break.
See where I'm going here? The break (IMHO) was't caused by batonning, wasn't caused by one yank on the handle but repeated lateral stresses as evidenced by the marks on the log/round.

Sorry man, but your analogy doesn't quite work. The steel in the papper clip can be extended to the point at which it becomes ductile and progressively weakened by heat and cracks. The hardened and spring tempered knife blade will snap cleanly before becoming ductile. Only cheap knives bend in a severe fashion rather than break.

The crack moves toward the pommel from the guard. I don't think this is indicative of lateral stress. I still think the problem (or one of them) was the sharp inside corner acting as a stress riser.

 

[SteelDriver]

The conditions on this winter campout were about 5 degrees and clear on this morning when we started to split some more wood. The other leader was just started to hammer the RS through the pictured log when I remarked what a good blade it was and how he was probably going to hand it down to his kids later on. Nice timing. No sooner had the words left my mouth when the blade literally shattered! We were in shock. The knife wasn't even taking a big split of that log either.

. . .

The small log was indeed the baton for hammering the knife through thelog and the knife was never hit with steel. Most of the hits were on the front of the blade protruding from the log while the user helped push the blade through. This is not an unreasonable method of splitting wood in fact it is the preferred method taught to students at USAF survival school.

Ebbtide,

If the technique Nutnfancy describes was used on the previous splits, it's reasonable to assume that the blade could be driven as far into the log as the user desires (not limited to the width of the blade). Once the knife is several inches into the wood, the piece could be pried off by hand without much trouble. Yanking the knife out sideways was probably not used here.

Also, Nutnfancy's post reads as if he eyewitnessed the break. If the user was following the technique Nutnfancy taught, the knife did not suffer repeated lateral stress. It is possible that the user was torquing the blade while batoning, but this provides no advantage to his technique, and it would be hard enough to baton with one hand and hold the knife with the other, to also be twisting the knife in the wood at the same time.

 

[Peoria46]

Ebbtide,

If the technique Nutnfancy describes was used on the previous splits, it's reasonable to assume that the blade could be driven as far into the log as the user desires (not limited to the width of the blade). Once the knife is several inches into the wood, the piece could be pried off by hand without much trouble. Yanking the knife out sideways was probably not used here.

So far, so good. Unfortunately for this last bite of the apple, the wedge being attempted extends all the way into the full thickness of the log. That's just about where the the crack being created by the knife seems to have stopped. They've also run out of knife spine to hit. That part nearest the hilt is becoming masked by the far side of the log.

 

[Peoria46]

While I hate that a knife died in the process, this has been a great thread.

 

[SteelDriver]

I'm in agreement with the minority here: wrong tool for the job.

Personally, I wouldn't expect a 7 1/2" knife to go through that type of log under those circumstances. I'd get a bigger blade or an axe. I've handled a CS Recon Stout, and I think it's a really SMALL knife for that job.

In all honesty, if you HAVE a 7 1/2" knife that can go through a log like that, then that's fantastic for you, but personally I wouldn't expect so much of such a small knife.

. . .

Personally, I'd use a 9" blade. That's just me. Like I've said in previous posts, if you can do it with a nail file, that's awesome for you.

But a bigger blade is my personal preference for this job, as I would personally worry that a smaller blade would break (as in the picture shown).

4 Ranges,

You repeatedly assert that a 7.5" knife is the wrong tool for the job and not your personal choice, yet you admit that it is entirely possible. In fact, many other posters have said that a 7.5" knife is more than enough for this log. So you're saying that a 9" version of the RS would be right for the job simply because it is 1.5" longer? As Andrew Lynch noted, blade length is irrelevant in this case because the knife broke at the tang.

Your reasoning as to what is appropriate for batoning and why the knife broke is completely off-base. Nothing personal, but you have added nothing to this discussion other than your preference for a longer blade, and even then have failed to justify your opinion other than the fact that it's your personal choice.

 

[SteelDriver]

So far, so good. Unfortunately for this last bite of the apple, the wedge being attempted extends all the way into the full thickness of the log. That's just about where the the crack being created by the knife seems to have stopped. They've also run out of knife spine to hit. That part nearest the hilt is becoming masked by the far side of the log.

One more time, in Nutnfancy's own words:

Most of the hits were on the front of the blade protruding from the log while the user helped push the blade through.

The user has plenty of blade protruding from the log to hit. He could have continued to drive the knife deeper if it had not broken, to the point that he has enough leverage to pry off that piece with his hands.

 

[Ebbtide]

OK, maybe the paper clip analogy was a poor one
What I was trying to get at is wouldn't repeated stresses in the same lateral direction weaken/stress the tang more than one hard yank. Maybe not. Again, I'm looking for an answer, not attempting to be right

But I still think that the knife was yanked out sideways to break the wood off.
Should it have broken?
No.
But it did.
Why?
If it was poor design, why isn't this a commn occurance?
With all of the RS's out there I'd think we'd see this more often, if it was a design flaw.
So maybe this particular blade was in the middle of the heat treat batch and came our more brittle than the rest?
Or, with the price point change, maybe they switched suppliers and the heat treats aren't monitored as closely.

I guess we'll never know :grumpy:

 

[4 Ranges]

Steeldriver:

LOL!! I think this discussion would be much more productive if people didn't get so wound up over my views on this matter. My opinion is just that: an opinion.

As to the 9" blade, you're not being clear. Like I said, a CS TM would probably have done the job without breaking. That's my opinion. It's my personal choice to use a 9" blade for this job...as it is anyone's choice to use a 7.5" blade. Free country, so what's the problem? If you say to me that you can use a 7.5" blade to do the job, I'd say "fantastic, I'm happy that you have such a great knife that can do this job for you."

But I'd rather use a 9".

If you have a problem with it, hey, that's your problem, not mine.

Enjoy the rest of the day.

 

[Peoria46]

One more time, in Nutnfancy's own words:

The user has plenty of blade protruding from the log to hit. He could have continued to drive the knife deeper if it had not broken, to the point that he has enough leverage to pry off that piece with his hands.

Could have continued? Why didn't he? Why need a handle if there's sufficient blade to hit. He ran out of blade and hit the handle instead. The handle broke. Alternate theory is that the knife was so crappy that the handle just happened to fall off while other events were in progress. Cold, gloved fingers prying on a stout wood slab. Yeah, that could have been what happened also.

 

[Josh Muller]

Steeldriver:
LOL!! I think this discussion would be much more productive if people didn't get so wound up over my views on this matter. My opinion is just that: an opinion.
Enjoy the rest of the day.

steeldriver was being both productive and well spoken. its not that its "just your opinion", its that youve said it many times now without taking into account (in your choice of words) what is being said in the ongoing discussion.

by stating that you would use a 9" blade instead of a 7 one time, you have made your point. the discussion then continues into another direction, specifically, since it was a 7" knife used (and no way to alter that after the fact), why did it break, and what could be done to avoid that under a similar situation (specifically, using a 7" knife. not a 9" one.)

 

[SteelDriver]

4 Ranges,

I respect your opinion, and I'm not wound up at all. I would also prefer a 9" blade to split that log (NOT at CS TM, though ). But I feel obligated to point out that you have missed the point of this discussion, for example:

As to the 9" blade, you're not being clear. Like I said, a CS TM would probably have done the job without breaking.

I know more than a few of us have the "opinion" that the TM has the same stress riser weakness as the RS and that blade length has no bearing on why the RS broke. You are definitely entitled to believe what you said, but without backing up your statement, what have your proven? You have not changed anybody's mind about the issue, nor have you responded to our points.

When I said 9" blade, I meant the TM (my mistake since the TM has a 9.5" blade). It has the same thickness and blade shape as the RS, and I'd wager the handles are identical as well. You've stated your opinion, some of us have disagreed and explained why, and your only response is that it's just your opinion and you're entitled to have it. Instead of restating your opinion, do you have something to add or to justify your opinion? If not, then you simply appear ignorant, as OwenM seemed to be implying.


Ebbtide,

I agree, without having the knife tested we'll never know. Even among all the knives with these stress risers, breakages are uncommon simply because most people do not use them hard. But when they do break, guess where it will be? CS's problem is that they deliberately ignore this weakness. I'm sure they know about the problem. A design change to radius that corner would complicate manufacture (the guard can no longer have a simple slot cut, etc.), and CS has been know to value profits more than improving their products.

 

[SteelDriver]

Could have continued? Why didn't he? Why need a handle if there's sufficient blade to hit. He ran out of blade and hit the handle instead. The handle broke. Alternate theory is that the knife was so crappy that the handle just happened to fall off while other events were in progress. Cold, gloved fingers prying on a stout wood slab. Yeah, that could have been what happened also.

He didn't continue because the knife broke. Please go back and read what Nutnfancy wrote (quoted in my post above). The technique requires the user to maintain downward pressure on the handle during batoning. He did not run out of blade, as "Most of the hits were on the front of the blade protruding from the log...." If the blade is protruding from the log, how can he run out of blade to hit? I don't think the handle just happened to fall off, either. It seems from Nutnfancy's picture and account that the RS was already used to split some of the log and that a final blow was required to break the knife.

 

[not2sharp]

It sound like we have the making of a new knife test. Clamp the blade securely into a heavy vise, at the hilt, and try to pull the handle off using up and down or lateral pressure. If you succeed, then that knife is definitely not for you; at least not for "survival".

n2s

 

[ras]

It sound like we have the making of a new knife test. Clamp the blade securely into a heavy vise, at the hilt, and try to pull the handle off using up and down or lateral pressure. If you succeed, then that knife is definitely not for you; at least not for "survival".

Better, clamp the blade securely into a heavy vise and hit the spine until the tang breaks... later, document how long it took to give up and suspend the test.