Dark Ops Petition/Contact...

[Marcelo Cantu]

By the time you are using your knife and not your rifle or sidearm, things have already gone to hell. Our knives are designed to retain maximum grip and leverage when covered with hydraulic fluid or blood. Our mil-tested handle designs contain ground quartz inserts for maximum grip, aided by substantial finger grooves that orient the knife in the dark. The blades are long and sharp enough to penetrate both airplane skins and Comm-bloc body-armor. Strategically placed blood grooves control blood spray in covert deanimation activities.

There you go Sendec here is one example of the stupid and yes, irresponsible ad copy on their ads and website.

If you have some evidence that the tone and tenor of advertising has some global negative impact I'd like to see it. This appears to be one of those areas where opinion has transmogrified into fact. Cite me a peer reviewed study that shows a statistically significant result in which advertising of a product had a significant causal influence on the outcome of a statistically significant number of civil and criminal trials, and you'll have something. There may be anecdotal evidence, but that doesnt rise to the level of proof, especially with the gargantuan amount of litigation in the US. You could make the "Pink Fuzzy Bunny Material Divider" and if somebody does something wrong with one of your knives you are still in the poop, and your politically correct language isnt gonna save ya.

What are you talking about?? Global negative impact? is that necesary to speak out against something? Is any of your excessively and superfluously wordy criteria necessary to speak out against something? Has anyone said: DOK's ads should be illegal? or banned?

also, could you possibly rewrite the sentence that I've highlighted as it doesn't make sense to me.

And lastly, calling someone on an obvious typo with the inferrence that they can't spell is just a waste of time

...On a separate note, Kevin you are lucky that you live in a red state that impinges on knife rights far less than say New York, California or Connecticut. That being the case, you're right, on a federal level there would not likely be any impact but on a state or even local level I believe that an irresponsible ad campaign would make a legislative impact.

 

[Will P.]

Uh, you mispelled "igonrant"(sic).

My responses are based on the First Amendment, a dislike for prior restraint, faith in the free market and a respect for small businesses. I dont have to see their ads, and dont have to like what they do, to acknowledge their right to do it.

Clearly, you don't understand either the First Amendment or the concept of a free market economy. The First Amendment guarentees citizens protection from government censorship. It does not protect them from the consequences of what they say. For example, if Dark Ops has some really stupid advertising, the First Amendment does not stop me from calling them idiots. Not would it stop a petition to get them to tone down their ads, as long as that petition did not involve the government. I don't think a petition is a good idea, but whatever.

If the government were interfering with Dark Ops in an unfair manner, that would go against the principle of a free market. However, in a free market a company's fate is often determined by its reputation. Hence, people form impressions of the company based on their actions and product. In this case we don't have a product, so we look at what they do and how they represent themselves.

As for small businesses... a crook is a crook, whether he's trying to start up a small company or not.

If you have some evidence that the tone and tenor of advertising has some global negative impact I'd like to see it. This appears to be one of those areas where opinion has transmogrified into fact. Cite me a peer reviewed study that shows a statistically significant result in which advertising of a product had a significant causal influence on the outcome of a statistically significant number of civil and criminal trials, and you'll have something. There may be anecdotal evidence, but that doesnt rise to the level of proof, especially with the gargantuan amount of litigation in the US. You could make the "Pink Fuzzy Bunny Material Divider" and if somebody does something wrong with one of your knives you are still in the poop, and your politically correct language isnt gonna save ya.

You know those switchblade knives? Not to mention balisongs.

 

[sendec]

And lastly, calling someone on an obvious typo with the inferrence that they can't spell is just a waste of timeQUOTE]

No, it is screamingly ironic. You claim that DOK uses language inappropriately, and you do the exact same thing. If you are going to refer to my posts as "ignorant", but cannot even spell it correctly, or are careless, or do not carefully craft your posts, it hardly speaks well of your credibility.

Bottom line, you dont like what DOK has to say, and you want them to not say it. You dont have the right to impose your values on them. That's life in the U.S.A.

I think this horse has been sufficiently flogged. Do what ya gotta do, and I'll do likewise.

 

[Will P.]

Bottom line, you dont like what DOK has to say, and you want them to not say it. You dont have the right to impose your values on them. That's life in the U.S.A.

But we have the right to call them flaming idiots.

The main issue isn't one of advertising, but rather of abuse to ER.

 

[Spark]

What happens to ER if they lose market share b/c of DO's "advertising". I see 1sks is liquidating its ER stock. Is that related to poor sales for ER or DO ripoffs. No disrespect intended. Just asking.

Kref

None taken. We're liquidating ER inventory because we were offered an incredibly good deal on ER goods. We got them at a greatly reduced price, so 1SKS passed on that savings, nothing more. We do this from time to time on a variety of products, in the past we've been approached by Camillus, Benchmade and some other manufacturers to liquidate discontinued items for them, nothing special.

I make no comments about the quality of any DOK or ER products, or their design similarities.

 

[Watchful]

Uh, you mispelled "igonrant"(sic).

Not that it matters, but you misspelled "mispelled" (sic).

 

[Watchful]

My responses are based on the First Amendment, a dislike for prior restraint, faith in the free market and a respect for small businesses. I dont have to see their ads, and dont have to like what they do, to acknowledge their right to do it...

On the other hand, it may be important to note that advertising is *not* necessarily protected by the First Amendment: there are numerous limitations on what a business can put into advertising.

 

[DaveH]

I imagine that all it would take is to print out a copy of the website, highlight the juicy textual parts, and send the thing to the office of Dianne Finestein (I probably have not spelled that correctly). There'd be Cali legislation pass quickly I'd guess, and isn't Cali the epicenter of the mall ninja kingdom?

 

[TheBadGuy]

True. I hope that he will do so shortly.

Please keep in mind that his response must be considered and careful and may take a day or two to formulate.

I really doubt that Frank will respond here and I can't blame him. We are obviously not his target audience or if we were, he screwed that up and if I were him, I would cut my loses with the knife forum market and move on. I can see no response that could validate or rectify any of the issues brought up in these threads. His fate is pretty much sealed on these matters as far as I can see anyway.

actually you guys are playing into Frank's "hand". I think his feeling is any press is good press and by continuing to stir things up with threads like this on, your getting him even more advertising, attention, buzz etc.

I have to disagree. As mentioned previously, all the knife forums have a substantially large group of folks that spend $150+ on knives and no one in their right mind would purposely give themselves a poor reputation in this market for the sake of free advertising/press. IMO, this is one case where not all press is good press.

Nobody ever said that ER knives never existed, or that they were fake or that they ripped of a strider design

That's not true. I distinctly remember several threads and discussions about Extreme Ratio's fixed blades being rip off Strider's designs when the first knives were released right before the ER forum was opened here at BFC. I will search out the threads if forced to That controvery died down after a few weeks and ER began to establish a good name after that. I can't see the same thing happening here, but who knows.

With no one to import ER's, it probably won't hurt their sales.

I thought thats why Frank left ER? That the company was no longer going to a direct ER USA importer but would sell direct to all distributors

I think this whole affair is a real shame because as a knife knut it brings me great joy to see a US knife company develope and put out a quality product. Frank had the experience, connections and judging by the advertising budget, the cash to make Dark Ops into a kick arse company but I think he made a right when he should have made a left right off the bat and I personally think part of that is b/c he wanted to strike back at ER for eliminating the need for Extreme Ratio USA, the division Frank was running and try to take away their market share. All just speculation of course, but I see no other reason why he didn't dig deep and come up with some designs of his own.

 

[sendec]

Not that it matters, but you misspelled "mispelled" (sic).

Thanks - Fixed it

 

[sendec]

But we have the right to call them flaming idiots.

The main issue isn't one of advertising, but rather of abuse to ER.

Pick an issue and stick with it - My points have been addressed to the infamous ad campaign that has given everyone diarrhea. I've said several times that if ER thinks they have been the victim of IP theft or issues they need to go to court. The real kind, not a bunch of know-it-alls on the web.

And what's with your avatar? It looks like someone about to covertly deanimate a sentry - spooky.

 

[Will P.]

Pick an issue and stick with it - My points have been addressed to the infamous ad campaign that has given everyone diarrhea. I've said several times that if ER thinks they have been the victim of IP theft or issues they need to go to court. The real kind, not a bunch of know-it-alls on the web.

And what's with your avatar? It looks like someone about to covertly deanimate a sentry - spooky.

ER is having trouble going to court - they are in Italy and don't have a lot of cash for this sort of thing. What does discussing DO knives do? Well, as we have mentioned, it denies DO sales to a good portion of the knife forum community. Ride your high horse all you want... but in the end all you are doing is espousing outright ignorance as a virtue. Somehow, I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this.

The avatar is the first custom knife I have purchased. There's still some finishing work to be done on it. Here's a shameless plug for the picture thread...

 

[sendec]

The avatar is the first custom knife I have purchased. There's still some finishing work to be done on it.

You, sir, are a hypocrite - You use violent, lurid imagery for yourself but would deny DOK's right to do the same. You could have photographed your knife lying on a cloth, but instead chose to portray it in a violent slashing maneuver. You are doing exactly the same thing that people claim DOK is.

Good day.

 

[Gollnick]

Perhaps. But he hasn't bought premium-placement full-page ads in a half-dozen magazines for the last six months nor has he added any ad copy about covert deanimation, blood splatter, or pentrating body armour.

 

[sendec]

Perhaps. But he hasn't bought premium-placement full-page ads in a half-dozen magazines for the last six months nor has he added any ad copy about covert deanimation, blood splatter, or pentrating body armour.

Oh, I see, it isnt the principle of the thing, just who is doing it and to what degree.

 

[Will P.]

You, sir, are a hypocrite - You use violent, lurid imagery for yourself but would deny DOK's right to do the same.

Where?

You could have photographed your knife lying on a cloth, but instead chose to portray it in a violent slashing maneuver. You are doing exactly the same thing that people claim DOK is.

Good day.

Actually, I didn't take any of those pictues. My pictues tend to be focused and unfuzzy. The photos in question come from bullet101, the knifemaker - a very nice profile shot that doesn't involve slashing or sentries.

Either you're joking, in which case you ought to use smilies, or you are spewing tripe.

EDIT: With all due respect to roughedges... my avatar is a personal statement in that is it a good picture of a really nice knife.
BTW, the design is original.

 

[roughedges]

Oh, I see, it isnt the principle of the thing, just who is doing it and to what degree.

to compare will p's avatar photo and Dark Ops advertising policy and then somehow extrapolate that Will is a hypocrite is ridiculous.

First off, Will is an individual and is (and this is stretching it) at most making a personal statement. The fact of the matter is that you are assuming that the photo was meant to portray "violent, lurid imagery". And tell me where the evidence is of a violent slash maneuver? I see no video, no animated . gif file, no hint of motion blur in the photograph. Perhaps Will P. just felt that the best way to present the blade. To think otherwise without asking him directly is an assumption. at best.

secondly, as a company, dark ops has a responsibility to adhere to a certain business ethic that no small business (you support them, remember?) of this kind can survive without. This amounts to truth in advertising and a certain degree of ethics in addition to not blatantly stealing the designs of your soon-to-be close competitor and formar employer.

It seems to me, sendec, that many of your posts are designed to either enforce an argument that is appearing to become more and more irrational or merely to get a reaction out of whichever person involved in this thread that you choose to single out on whatever whim.

Be careful what you wish for. If you succeed in muzzling one entity, the karma's gonna suck. I'd like to think that people can make their own decisions and dont believe everything they read, but maybe this group is an exception.

I dont have to see their ads, and dont have to like what they do, to acknowledge their right to do it.

So you have read some Voltaire and can reapply the idea. However, I honestly can't make heads or tails of the point of your argument. You said First Amendment but I honestly don't see it. I mean, Dark Ops advertised what they wanted, I suppose that's their right. And then the online knife community responded to the BS. As is it's right. So, where does the apparent personal animosity and need to argue and belittle stem from?


2nd edit: I just noticed that this is my 100th post. Not a bad one I hope!

 

[alan aragon]

lol @ how sendec is getting worked repeatedly in this thread. just surrender already. deanimate your lack of discernment

 

[dennis75]

yawn, this thread was fun at first, but now it's getting plain boring and way off-topic....... :yawn:

 

[Marcelo Cantu]

Hmmm....I think we have a

xxxxxxxxxxxxx
......xxxx.....
......xxxx.....
......xxxx.....
......xxxx.....
......xxxx.....
......xxxx.....

xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xx...........xxx
xx...........xx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xx...........xx
xx............xx
xx............xxx

..xxxxxxxxxx..
.xxxxxxxxxxxx
xx.............xx
xx.............xx
xx.............xx
xx.............xx
.xxxxxxxxxxxx
..xxxxxxxxxxx

xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx

xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxx

on our hands here.

edited to add that apparently: When [my] argument has no basis[,] resort to ad-hominem attacks. What a stud.