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David Mirabile RONIN Battle Tanto WIP (PAGE 25 NEW CUTTING VIDEO)
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NihontoEd
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I have read this article and debated for days on adding this reply, as it is not my wish spark anger or debate. Consider this first paragraph a disclaimer of sorts, as I would merely like to correct a few discrepancies in regards to the historical accounts written here regarding genuine Nihonto(Japanese sword).
Please note that I respect a makers right to make a blade however he chooses and call it whatever he wishes. I also like the blade in this post and it should be an awesome weapon.
Yet, comments like this force me to write.
HTMD wrote, Thanks for the education Joe. I've stayed away from this whole genre of blades because I lack the discipline to learn all I'd need to know in order to not waste money and make a fool of myself. However, I know I can trust what you're laying out for us here and that's why I appreciate this thread.
My comments are only directed at people like those above with no knowledge of the Japanese sword. As a collector and student of the Japanese sword for 30 years, I find it difficult to sit idly by and see incorrect information being posted for the unknowing to take as fact.
A large majority of modern blades by knife makers outside Japan have little in common with traditional Japanese blades, even when called by Japanese names. Most have no regard for the system of measurement, or the traditional geometry. And that is fine, this aint Japan.
Yet, if we are going to honor our blades by giving them Japanese names, shouldnt we respect the criteria at least a little ? Shouldnt we study a bit and become familiar with the basics of the genre ?
In actuality all Kaiken are Tanto ! All Japanese blades less than or up to 1 shaku(11.93 or 30.3cm)) are Tanto !
The term Kaiken is a designation related to the way it was mounted and worn inside the clothing. The Kaiken is a small Tanto. They were carried by the wives and daughters of Samurai and used for self defense and likely as a status symbol among the elite, as many were very well made and mounted. Kaiken were generally concealed in the sleeve of the Kimono or tucked discreetly into the Obi. For this reason, they were typically mounted in Aikuchi mounts. Aikuchi means "Flush Mouthed". This is reference to the fact that they were mounted with no Tsuba. The Fuchi sits flush against the Koiguchi or mouth of the saya. As such, the flat profile was easily concealed .
Another misconception is the assumed role of the kaiken as a tool used for suicide. This is completely unfounded, the Dagger used for ritual suicide or Seppuku, like all things Japanese, was required to fall within a prescribed criteria. For Women's Ritual Seppuku or Jigai (severing the Carotid Arteries), the Blade was a prescribed length of 9 sun, 5 bu (11.33" or 28.78cm). The other requirements were that the blade be mu-zori or straight backed, Hira-zukuri or flat sided and it was required to be housed in a very plain all white wooden tsuka and saya, basically a white shirasaya.
A commonly seen misconception is length requirements. Most collectors outside Japan will tell you that a tanto is up to 12, Wakizashi between 12-24 and Katana over 24. That is for ease of conversation but not completely accurate. The Japanese sword is measured by the ancient system of Shaku (尺
, Sun(寸, Bu (分. One (1) Shaku = 11.93 or 10 Sun or 100 Bu. So, any sword up to 1 Shaku (11.93) is a Tanto. A sword of more than 1 Shaku(11.93) and up to than 2 Shaku or (23.86) is technically a wakizashi. As well any sword over 2 shaku (23.86) is a Daito or long sword (known as Katana or Tachi). I know this sounds nitpicky, but it does come into play.
Please note that in times past a sword may have ended up a bit over or under the prescribed lengths. As such, and depending on how they were mounted, they were called by different names such as, O-Tanto(large tanto), Ko-Wakizashi (small wakizashi), O-Wakizashi (large wakizashi), etc., etc. In order to bring some sense of order, the Japanese Government set the prescribed length designations. While it may be a kaiken, you will not see a Kaiken papered as Kaiken, but only as a Tanto
Here again, there should be no confusion, the line is set. With a 15 nagasa, your blade is a Wakizashi, not a Tanto. But again, you can call it whatever you wish.
Incorrect. Tanto, Wakizashi and while rare, even Katana can be mounted without a guard. Tanto are the most common, but many wakizashi are mounted without a guard. When mounted this way, they are known as Aikuchi mounts (like the Kaiken).
Tanto (Kaiken) in Aikuchi mounts - no guard
Wakizashi in Aikuchi mounts - no Guard
A Shobu-zukuri differs from Shinogi-zukuri by the absence of the Yokote. However, this means that there needs to be a Shinogi separating the Ji from the shinogi-ji which runs full length. There is no shinogi on this wakizashi. The Bo-hi or fuller would remove a blade from the shobu designation in my mind, as I have never seen an Iris leaf with a groove. At best it would be Shobu-zukuri like.
Shobu-zukuri nomenclature:
No sir, handle length has no bearing on the designation of tanto, wakizashi, katana. Look at the photo you posted on terminology, the Nagasa or blade length is what is measured, not the nakago or handle.
That has been debated for decades, so I wont go one way or the other, but lean towards ornamental. There were some which were functional without a doubt, as they served as the mekugi pin. There worked much like Chicago screws, with the barrel side going all the way through and the threaded end screwing into that. Many people have tried to tell me that menuki served as a reference for hand placement, fitting under the palms. However, if you look at antique swords, the menuki are not under the palms, but on the opposite side under your fingers. Though that is easily rectified on modern blades.
In closing, I reiterate, please do not take this as a personal insult or as negative remarks towards the blade which is subject of this post. I think Davis Mirabile is an excellent Knife maker and have admired his works for some time. Again, I think this will be an awesome weapon.
This post serves only as an aid to better educate those who appreciate the Japanese sword..
Please note that I respect a makers right to make a blade however he chooses and call it whatever he wishes. I also like the blade in this post and it should be an awesome weapon.
Yet, comments like this force me to write.
HTMD wrote, Thanks for the education Joe. I've stayed away from this whole genre of blades because I lack the discipline to learn all I'd need to know in order to not waste money and make a fool of myself. However, I know I can trust what you're laying out for us here and that's why I appreciate this thread.
My comments are only directed at people like those above with no knowledge of the Japanese sword. As a collector and student of the Japanese sword for 30 years, I find it difficult to sit idly by and see incorrect information being posted for the unknowing to take as fact.
A large majority of modern blades by knife makers outside Japan have little in common with traditional Japanese blades, even when called by Japanese names. Most have no regard for the system of measurement, or the traditional geometry. And that is fine, this aint Japan.
Yet, if we are going to honor our blades by giving them Japanese names, shouldnt we respect the criteria at least a little ? Shouldnt we study a bit and become familiar with the basics of the genre ?
In actuality all Kaiken are Tanto ! All Japanese blades less than or up to 1 shaku(11.93 or 30.3cm)) are Tanto !
The term Kaiken is a designation related to the way it was mounted and worn inside the clothing. The Kaiken is a small Tanto. They were carried by the wives and daughters of Samurai and used for self defense and likely as a status symbol among the elite, as many were very well made and mounted. Kaiken were generally concealed in the sleeve of the Kimono or tucked discreetly into the Obi. For this reason, they were typically mounted in Aikuchi mounts. Aikuchi means "Flush Mouthed". This is reference to the fact that they were mounted with no Tsuba. The Fuchi sits flush against the Koiguchi or mouth of the saya. As such, the flat profile was easily concealed .
Another misconception is the assumed role of the kaiken as a tool used for suicide. This is completely unfounded, the Dagger used for ritual suicide or Seppuku, like all things Japanese, was required to fall within a prescribed criteria. For Women's Ritual Seppuku or Jigai (severing the Carotid Arteries), the Blade was a prescribed length of 9 sun, 5 bu (11.33" or 28.78cm). The other requirements were that the blade be mu-zori or straight backed, Hira-zukuri or flat sided and it was required to be housed in a very plain all white wooden tsuka and saya, basically a white shirasaya.
A commonly seen misconception is length requirements. Most collectors outside Japan will tell you that a tanto is up to 12, Wakizashi between 12-24 and Katana over 24. That is for ease of conversation but not completely accurate. The Japanese sword is measured by the ancient system of Shaku (尺
, Sun(寸, Bu (分. One (1) Shaku = 11.93 or 10 Sun or 100 Bu. So, any sword up to 1 Shaku (11.93) is a Tanto. A sword of more than 1 Shaku(11.93) and up to than 2 Shaku or (23.86) is technically a wakizashi. As well any sword over 2 shaku (23.86) is a Daito or long sword (known as Katana or Tachi). I know this sounds nitpicky, but it does come into play.Please note that in times past a sword may have ended up a bit over or under the prescribed lengths. As such, and depending on how they were mounted, they were called by different names such as, O-Tanto(large tanto), Ko-Wakizashi (small wakizashi), O-Wakizashi (large wakizashi), etc., etc. In order to bring some sense of order, the Japanese Government set the prescribed length designations. While it may be a kaiken, you will not see a Kaiken papered as Kaiken, but only as a Tanto
Here again, there should be no confusion, the line is set. With a 15 nagasa, your blade is a Wakizashi, not a Tanto. But again, you can call it whatever you wish.
Incorrect. Tanto, Wakizashi and while rare, even Katana can be mounted without a guard. Tanto are the most common, but many wakizashi are mounted without a guard. When mounted this way, they are known as Aikuchi mounts (like the Kaiken).
Tanto (Kaiken) in Aikuchi mounts - no guard
Wakizashi in Aikuchi mounts - no Guard
A Shobu-zukuri differs from Shinogi-zukuri by the absence of the Yokote. However, this means that there needs to be a Shinogi separating the Ji from the shinogi-ji which runs full length. There is no shinogi on this wakizashi. The Bo-hi or fuller would remove a blade from the shobu designation in my mind, as I have never seen an Iris leaf with a groove. At best it would be Shobu-zukuri like.
Shobu-zukuri nomenclature:
No sir, handle length has no bearing on the designation of tanto, wakizashi, katana. Look at the photo you posted on terminology, the Nagasa or blade length is what is measured, not the nakago or handle.
That has been debated for decades, so I wont go one way or the other, but lean towards ornamental. There were some which were functional without a doubt, as they served as the mekugi pin. There worked much like Chicago screws, with the barrel side going all the way through and the threaded end screwing into that. Many people have tried to tell me that menuki served as a reference for hand placement, fitting under the palms. However, if you look at antique swords, the menuki are not under the palms, but on the opposite side under your fingers. Though that is easily rectified on modern blades.
In closing, I reiterate, please do not take this as a personal insult or as negative remarks towards the blade which is subject of this post. I think Davis Mirabile is an excellent Knife maker and have admired his works for some time. Again, I think this will be an awesome weapon.
This post serves only as an aid to better educate those who appreciate the Japanese sword..
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No worries
Like I said in the first paragraph you can call it a Tanto an O Tanto or a WAKIZASHI it does not matter to me
As you said the subject of Menuki have been debated for years.... I like mine to act as I mentioned
But feel free to add things I welcome the input
David is not by any means a traditional Smith and this is far from a traditional blade I think everyone here knows that
Like I said in the first paragraph you can call it a Tanto an O Tanto or a WAKIZASHI it does not matter to me
As you said the subject of Menuki have been debated for years.... I like mine to act as I mentioned
But feel free to add things I welcome the input
David is not by any means a traditional Smith and this is far from a traditional blade I think everyone here knows that
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That is why I am not into japanese stuff.
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Erik
Japanese inspired blades are just that and don't be turned away because of people's opinions of what traditional is and should be
I would love to see you do some blades in the Japanese style
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Rolf
I agree it's nice to see comments on terminology etc and I welcome all Input
Imagine what he would think of Hartsfields Work
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Thanks for the education/info on blades and terminology.
I see no reason what so ever why this can not co-exist along side beautiful interpretations/variations from the hands of Western bladesmiths.
In fact, I welcome the modern interpretations inspired from centuries old Japanese 'Nihonto' (hope I used that right) whilst at the same time deeply respecting the old Japanese blades and their design steeped in history.
....Ohh and I try not to think of what was lost during WWII and especially the heritage lost when quantities of blades were dumped in Tokyo Bay on orders from Dugout Doug.
Now, where are my flippers and snorkel!
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My collection spans from classic Nihonto to modern adaptations and at no time was this piece or David's work refereed to as traditional ..... It was referred to as Japanese Inspired
The late great phill Hartsfield used to say that he did not make a traditional Japanese blade and that he had no desire to
He also named them after traditional Japanese style blades because in his designs that was what he was trying to emulate but in his own terms with his own input
this blade was never meant to be a traditional blade but an interpretation of what David and I would like to see in a Tanto/Wakisahi style blade......a hybrid of such and that was mentioned in the first paragraph of this thread
I don't think Southern meant to in any way be duragatory of this piece only to shed proper light on proper terminology etc
For me a WAKIZASHI would have a longer blade than this piece and a shorter handle that is why I stated you can call it what you like but I was going to call it a Battle Tanto
I prefer longer handles etc so this piece is a direct result of what I wanted and what David and I were trying to accomplish
This is a mono steel blade with rough textured flats which makes it a departure from traditional to begin with
My dear friend STeven Garrson also has issue with Japanese inspired blades and their departure from classic terminology and design etc
As he has grown older I think he has grown more forgiving of such
Southern mentions that the blade is more Shobu Zukuri like than Shobu Zukuri ...... Well that's close enough for me
I learned to appreciate Japanese inspired blades thru the work of Phill Hartsfield ..... It didn't make me less appreciative of classic styled blades and vice Versa
Today their is a new style of blade coming into vogue and that is the world of Japanese inspired blades ..... It is not new and I do believe Hartsfield was the first to step into this genre
I'm glad he did
It is only natural that terms and descriptions will get blurred as these hybrids continue to grow in popularity
This post is in no way a post meant to contradict Sourherns he is correct and any Google search will add merit to the use of proper terminology when it comes to classic Japanese style blades and why I copied and pasted a Wiki definition of Tanto that gave the exact measurements he quoted in my first paragraph
David will be moving on to his version of the Japanese Styled sheath (SAYA) next ...... Btw I will be referring to it as a SAYA even though it will be made of Carbon fiber etc that is something the Japanese did not have access to hundreds of years ago
The late great phill Hartsfield used to say that he did not make a traditional Japanese blade and that he had no desire to
He also named them after traditional Japanese style blades because in his designs that was what he was trying to emulate but in his own terms with his own input
this blade was never meant to be a traditional blade but an interpretation of what David and I would like to see in a Tanto/Wakisahi style blade......a hybrid of such and that was mentioned in the first paragraph of this thread
I don't think Southern meant to in any way be duragatory of this piece only to shed proper light on proper terminology etc
For me a WAKIZASHI would have a longer blade than this piece and a shorter handle that is why I stated you can call it what you like but I was going to call it a Battle Tanto
I prefer longer handles etc so this piece is a direct result of what I wanted and what David and I were trying to accomplish
This is a mono steel blade with rough textured flats which makes it a departure from traditional to begin with
My dear friend STeven Garrson also has issue with Japanese inspired blades and their departure from classic terminology and design etc
As he has grown older I think he has grown more forgiving of such
Southern mentions that the blade is more Shobu Zukuri like than Shobu Zukuri ...... Well that's close enough for me
I learned to appreciate Japanese inspired blades thru the work of Phill Hartsfield ..... It didn't make me less appreciative of classic styled blades and vice Versa
Today their is a new style of blade coming into vogue and that is the world of Japanese inspired blades ..... It is not new and I do believe Hartsfield was the first to step into this genre
I'm glad he did
It is only natural that terms and descriptions will get blurred as these hybrids continue to grow in popularity
This post is in no way a post meant to contradict Sourherns he is correct and any Google search will add merit to the use of proper terminology when it comes to classic Japanese style blades and why I copied and pasted a Wiki definition of Tanto that gave the exact measurements he quoted in my first paragraph
David will be moving on to his version of the Japanese Styled sheath (SAYA) next ...... Btw I will be referring to it as a SAYA even though it will be made of Carbon fiber etc that is something the Japanese did not have access to hundreds of years ago
Last edited:
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OK! Cool!
NihontoEd
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I agree with that, you should not let your interpretation of a genre of blades be held back because of tradition. Hope my post did not encourage or enhance that feeling. While I did say that numerous things Joe stated about Japanese swords were incorrect, it was in regards to Japanese Swords. If a sword is made outside of Japan by non traditionally trained smiths, then it is NOT a Japanese Sword, but a sword made in the Japanese STYLE.
Some of these incorrect assumptions do have bearing even in a modern sense, such as "Tanto all have guards".
My purpose was not to point out false statements, but merely to correct them for educational reference.
As Joe mentioned above and as I pointed out in my post several times, nothing derogatory was meant by it.
An artist is moved by what inspires him. I wholeheartedly respect artistic expression.
If you make a non traditional Japanese style sword, then that is all it is, a work inspired by Japanese swords.
I will admit that as a hard core traditionalist, it does bother me a wee bit to see oddball shapes and designs given Japanese names. But hey, that is my problem.
The only thing that I personally wish, is that all makers would adhere to the length designations.
All sword smiths, outside of Japan, who specialize in Japanese style swords adhere to this one thing if nothing else.
Hanwei, Chenese, Bell, Sorrels, Barrett, Mills etc., etc. they all follow the length criteria.
It seems that only knife makers do not adhere to this (not all of them). Though I respect your right to call what you will, it confuses things when you call Wakizashi a Tanto.
If it is a Japanese style blade which you plan to call a tanto, wakizashi, or katana and it consists of a 15" nagasa, then it is a wakizashi, no matter what you call it.
Reminds me of all this transgender crap they have been talking about. You may feel like a woman trapped in a mans body, but if you were born with a set of cahones, you ain't a girl !
Now before we go further understand that I am not a professional knife maker, not even a very good knife maker. As a hobbyist, I make a knife here and there, mostly hunters and a few half ass Bowies.
Hell, I have already admitted to be a hard core traditionalist, yet even I have made Japanese inspired blades. This one, as I ground the blade had kind of a hira-zukuri look to it, so I decided to make it what I referred to as Tanto-ish. Added a traditional style wrap to the handle using hollowed paracord and gave the sheath an Asian theme, and voilà a Japanese inspired Tanto-ish knife.
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I do not know your name so if it is okay I will refer to you as Southern
My purpose of using references to Japanese cutlery terms is and was to draw people into the genre and get them interested
It is than up to the reader to source more information if they desire
You bring up this comment of mine when I referred to Tanto as having a guard
You said this :
Incorrect. Tanto, Wakizashi and while rare, even Katana can be mounted without a guard. Tanto are the most common, but many wakizashi are mounted without a guard. When mounted this way, they are known as Aikuchi mounts (like the Kaiken).
Tanto (Kaiken) in Aikuchi mounts - no guard
My point is
in a general overview MOST Tanto have a guard if not they are called a Tanto with Aikuchi mounts
So I'm not incorrect
Most Tanto and WAKIZASHI have guards and if not they are said to be in Aikuchi mounts
And again when it comes to length I would not have quoted a direct Wiki discription of what is the Japanese definition of length and than go on to say you can call it what you want But I AM CALLING THIS HYBRID THIS if I were trying to mislead people on classic definitions
Not to be disrespectful but my goal is to interest people in Japanese style blades and their use not to turn them off
I am giving them basic info to get them interested
I was buying swords from the likes of Bell 25 years ago and I do own blades from Mills , Bell , Clark etc so I understand what you are saying but my goal is to draw them in to the Japanese blade genre not over complicate it at this point
You are correct no blade made outside of Japan is a true Japanese blade but the chance of someone putting out the funds for a true Japanese Sword is rare and I do not consider the stuff coming out of Chen, Hanwei and Bugui even though decent Japanese like objects true Japanese swords either
so if my options were to use a custom blade from a good custom American smith or one of the Chinese blades from the above mentioned companies you know what I would pick
Not picking on the Chinese Japanese style blades I own some from all the above mentioned companies
If you can refer to the last knife you pictured as Tantoish I have no problem Refering to what I have posted as a battle Tanto I just would of had better taste than to pop in on one of your threads and call you on it
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Dawkind
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I enjoy the information but don't know enough other than I've enjoyed the East/West (JSB, if you will) hybrid knives for many years.....the first was an idea I had and was then interpreted by Dr. Kwong Yeang aka Jason Cutter from Australia going 15 or so years ago.
I just did get this a few days ago from another of my favorite Bladesmiths, Stuart Branson.
Stuart's photo......don't know what kind of -ish this is.
I'd LOVE to have a 'real' Japanese blade but, over the years, I've collected many 'hybrid' pieces and enjoy them all very much....even if they aren't legit.
I just did get this a few days ago from another of my favorite Bladesmiths, Stuart Branson.
Stuart's photo......don't know what kind of -ish this is.
I'd LOVE to have a 'real' Japanese blade but, over the years, I've collected many 'hybrid' pieces and enjoy them all very much....even if they aren't legit.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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Southern Comfort is a traditionalist like me.
One point....while he may lean to menuki being decorative, how they are used by the swordsman is germane.
Mine are "reversed", in that being right handed, the view of the observer, when they are worn is one of the "presentation" side menuki being quite close to the rear of the tsuka, and the side worn close to the body is much closer to the habaki. I use them as palm swells and have since my first sword was wrapped back in 2000.
Is this traditional? Like has been mentioned....it is something that is discussed and debated amongst folks who actually know what they are talking about.
Like Joe, I find the line between o-tanto and wakizashi to be blurry....like Southern Comfort, I lean towards wanting to hold to specific terminology for lengths, but in practice of mounting, aesthetic and use, do prefer some flexibility.
The only people who seem to really give a dang in both Japan and the rest of the world are gristled old farts like the three of us who always seem to find time to split hairs over minutiae while the remainder of folks are blissfully busy playing Pokeman Go.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
One point....while he may lean to menuki being decorative, how they are used by the swordsman is germane.
Mine are "reversed", in that being right handed, the view of the observer, when they are worn is one of the "presentation" side menuki being quite close to the rear of the tsuka, and the side worn close to the body is much closer to the habaki. I use them as palm swells and have since my first sword was wrapped back in 2000.
Is this traditional? Like has been mentioned....it is something that is discussed and debated amongst folks who actually know what they are talking about.
Like Joe, I find the line between o-tanto and wakizashi to be blurry....like Southern Comfort, I lean towards wanting to hold to specific terminology for lengths, but in practice of mounting, aesthetic and use, do prefer some flexibility.
The only people who seem to really give a dang in both Japan and the rest of the world are gristled old farts like the three of us who always seem to find time to split hairs over minutiae while the remainder of folks are blissfully busy playing Pokeman Go.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson