down2man (George Huang)

[Damn_Animal]

So far, there hasn't been any evidence that such a "warranty" (the word you're looking for is indemnity, btw) ever existed. Maybe it does exist and Dylan has yet to post it. Maybe it doesn't and this was just a rookie mistake. Who knows?

Point is that we shouldn't condemn George on the basis on a promise that he never made.

As far as the PP claim, I can see both sides here. That said, its not like PP has a "stuck in customs" option. You have to select something as the cause for your refund claim and "item not received" is a good reason (and technically correct.).

Point is that this whole drama could have been avoided by 1: spelling out each parties responsibilities 2: using a means of payment not conducive to random refunds 3: better communication.

My warranty has in the past been "Once the knife leaves U.S. soil my obligation is complete if anything happens to the knife it is on the carrier and you" If they continue with the transaction they are accepting these terms and conditions to me this is what Dylan did and by finishing the transaction George accepted these terms. Just because he didnt type out "I will take full responsibility" does not mean that Dylan did not imply this warranty and by proceeding with the transaction he(George) accepted the terms and conditions of the trade/sale laid out by Dylan, just as anyone would when they accept the terms and conditions of any other online purchase.

That being said we are all individuals on this forum and choose who we do and do not deal with. I for one will never deal with George on this forum or any other for that matter. This disturbing news about paypal will also make me wary about shipping overseas anymore all together. If you choose to deal with George you are accepting a risk that has been at this point in my opinion well documented and ill advised.

Its unfortunate that one rotten transaction regardless of the intention can destroy ones reputation. That being said we as a community decide what actions are acceptable and what actions are not acceptable regardless of paypal or any other outside bodies ruling. If George or anyone else for that matter feels they are above the community standards feel free to let me know so I can add you to my do not deal list.

 

[TiNi]

Buyer bought and paid for a knife knowing Australia's law.

Seller posted knife and from the looks of the tracking it has been halted at customs.

Buyers fault in my book, taking a risk on a $300.00 folding knife is stupid considering the way it is here now (since December 2011).

I dont see this stalemate ending well for Dylan, sorry this happened to you.

 

[kreole]

I suggest that Dylan get a definitive answer from customs as to what action they take. May take a while but find out for sure.
If it clears and is forwarded to the buyer, he owes you money. From the buyers responses here, I wouldn't assume he is going to email you saying he finally received it.

As for the buyer, a simple search between forums clues one into the reason he buys a lot of knives. He no doubt knows the risks he's taking trying to get folders thru his customs agency and should expect some losses. It's pretty clear how he deals with a loss.

I recall a prior thread about a international deal gone bad. The seller didn't keep any proof showing he shipped. He was raked over the coals/flogged/branded. Cries from posters about just having to show proof that you shipped and the majority would side with him.
Fast forward to this thread. Dylan has all his records proving shipment and tracking information as well.

I think Dylan got screwed by George and paypal.

You're misremembering the old thread. The buyer agreed to take responsibility if it was shipped a particular way (the only way the buyer knew it would get there), paid extra to the seller for it, and then the seller didn't use that method (said he forgot when he got there), instead using the method that the buyer was specifically looking to not use. Not having receipts was just icing on the cake in that one. This is not nearly the same situation.

My warranty has in the past been "Once the knife leaves U.S. soil my obligation is complete if anything happens to the knife it is on the carrier and you" If they continue with the transaction they are accepting these terms and conditions to me this is what Dylan did and by finishing the transaction George accepted these terms. Just because he didnt type out "I will take full responsibility" does not mean that Dylan did not imply this warranty and by proceeding with the transaction he(George) accepted the terms and conditions of the trade/sale laid out by Dylan, just as anyone would when they accept the terms and conditions of any other online purchase.

That being said we are all individuals on this forum and choose who we do and do not deal with. I for one will never deal with George on this forum or any other for that matter. This disturbing news about paypal will also make me wary about shipping overseas anymore all together. If you choose to deal with George you are accepting a risk that has been at this point in my opinion well documented and ill advised.

Its unfortunate that one rotten transaction regardless of the intention can destroy ones reputation. That being said we as a community decide what actions are acceptable and what actions are not acceptable regardless of paypal or any other outside bodies ruling. If George or anyone else for that matter feels they are above the community standards feel free to let me know so I can add you to my do not deal list.

I think you're both right that it was at least implied but perhaps not explicit as it should be. So many threads here in GBU come down to misunderstandings that this should be looked at as a reminder to be explicit and spell everything out--always but with even more care when going through an international sale. It's easier to get things firmed up at the beginning than after there's a problem.


Anyway it sounds like Australian customs doesn't just immediately destroy the knife, so there's hope for this one yet.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Buyer bought and paid for a knife knowing Australia's law.

You could also say that the seller sold and shipped a knife knowing Australia's law. It goes both ways.

Buyers fault in my book, taking a risk on a $300.00 folding knife is stupid considering the way it is here now (since December 2011).

The seller also took the risk. He knew he was shipping a knife to Australia, and he even stated in his first post that he was reluctant to go through with the deal, but he says, "I didn't really want to let the knife go, but I needed to buy books for my summer college semester." The seller took a major risk because he needed the money. That was the critical mistake. He took the risk, too, when he shipped to Australia against his own better judgement.

Now as far as character is concerned: when things predictably went wrong with Customs, the buyer came on here and made all sorts of allegations against George Huang (implying that he was hiding his identity, implying that he stole the knife, implying that he made promises). The seller even flat out lied and told everyone that George Huang said something he didn't. I'm sorry the seller lost his knife and the money, too. But coming here with lies is wrong.

With regard to the e-mails, I believe George Huang when he says that he wrote multiple e-mails to the seller which went unanswered during the dispute period. I also believe him when he says it was the seller who escalated the PayPal issue into a claim. I believe the seller will not be able to show e-mails showing he answered George Huang's inquiries, just like he is not able to show e-mails showing that George Huang stated the things he claims he stated.

At the end of the day, a lot is being assumed about George Huang's character. People are assuming that he is doing something dubious. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But the only person who has been proven to have lied is the seller. As far as who is being honest, I have to go with George Huang. There are fewer holes in his story, and he didn't flat out lie (yet).

 

[pry]

You could also say that the seller sold and shipped a knife knowing Australia's law. It goes both ways.

Nope, its the buyers responsibility to know the laws where he lives, not the sellers. The buyer is trying to import, breaking the law, not the seller.

The seller also took the risk. He knew he was shipping a knife to Australia, and he even stated in his first post that he was reluctant to go through with the deal, but he says, "I didn't really want to let the knife go, but I needed to buy books for my summer college semester." The seller took a major risk because he needed the money. That was the critical mistake. He took the risk, too, when he shipped to Australia against his own better judgement.

Now as far as character is concerned: when things predictably went wrong with Customs, the buyer came on here and made all sorts of allegations against George Huang (implying that he was hiding his identity, implying that he stole the knife, implying that he made promises). The seller even flat out lied and told everyone that George Huang said something he didn't. I'm sorry the seller lost his knife and the money, too. But coming here with lies is wrong.

Not sure he flat out lied, but he exaggerated. He did have terms of the sale, and they were agreed upon by george continuing with the purchase.

With regard to the e-mails, I believe George Huang when he says that he wrote multiple e-mails to the seller which went unanswered during the dispute period. I also believe him when he says it was the seller who escalated the PayPal issue into a claim. I believe the seller will not be able to show e-mails showing he answered George Huang's inquiries, just like he is not able to show e-mails showing that George Huang stated the things he claims he stated.

How many emails are required to answer the same question? The knifes in customs, its in customs, customs has it. You must be as slow as George if you still don't get it. Not replying to emails after his end of the deal was practically done doesn't give George the right to rip him off.

At the end of the day, a lot is being assumed about George Huang's character. People are assuming that he is doing something dubious. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But the only person who has been proven to have lied is the seller. As far as who is being honest, I have to go with George Huang. There are fewer holes in his story, and he didn't flat out lie (yet).

George did lie, he said he figured the knife was lost or stolen when it was clearly in customs hands, and he agreed to Dylans terms of "its out of my hands" by continuing with the purchase, then held him responsible. No matter how clear right and wrong is, there's always some ahole trying to blur the lines.

 

[Maprik]

George,
You saw clearly that the package made it to customs. You were wrong to contact PayPal at all. You should have left the seller alone and hoped for the best from customs. You should return the money to the seller. It is the honorable thing to do whether you finally get the knife or not.

 

[bernard_s3]

I may be lost... How did Paypal rule in his favor if Dylan has proof of shipping... I think Dylan can try to overturn Paypal's ruling...

 

[meako]

That's quite a disheartening tale about shipping international, especially when you think you're covering yourself the best you can. As other posts have mentioned, research and practicing due diligence is key. Hope this works out someway.

I think shipping USPS Express Mail International Insured is at least $35 for a mid size folder and I've paid as much as $42, lest my local USPS is ripping me a new one- big time.

Yes but if they tell you its not their responsibility as soon as it leaves the country ....what are you insuring against? believe me when i say I learned this the hard way.Its a gyp.

 

[thelastbestplace]

My 2 cents:

The buyer is in a better position to know the laws of his own country since he lives there. From that standpoint he should be responsible for customs problems unless they agreed to something else. (Also, the buyer made statements indicating that it would not be an issue) Can we expect a seller to research and understand the laws of every country in the world? Sometimes I feel like I barely understand American weapon laws.

Just think of the implications IF we were to hold a seller responsible in this type of situation. A buyer in X country could just buy 10 knives from 10 different sellers on this forum and have them shipped to his country. If only 7 made it through customs, he could just tell the others to screw off and tell them it was their fault.

Not a good precedent.

 

[GMAHN]

It seems that Australians always want to get knives but they often get stopped by customs. Blade Forums should maybe put a post in the trading sections that list places that have a good chance of losing the knife to customs. Australians have shit laws with regards to knives and they should work to change those rather than trying to get other people to get knives to them.

 

[meako]

GMAHN-yer not wrong.The law is an Ass.
I can't understand why this knife would have been seized by customs.Haven't they got anything better to do??

 

[mkelsey6]

If I was the seller I would contact AUS cutoms(get the *real* number from one of the friendly and HONEST ABF members here) and explain to them what is going on, even if they will not return Dylan's knife surely they would like to know that someone seems to be trying to repeatedly import illegal items.

 

[DylanMW]

It sure would he nice if I could get a "No, I will not give YOUR money back" or "Yes, I will give you YOUR money back" from George..

I just want a straight answer at this point. It's pretty clear what everyone thinks.

At what point does a mod step in and threaten a ban for stealing?

 

[DylanMW]

surely they would like to know that someone seems to be trying to repeatedly import illegal items.

As much as I would love too do this it is a line I can not cross.

I sleep fine at night knowing that I was scammed out of $395.
However, I wouldn't sleep well if I knew I could have potentially put someone in jail for importing.

 

[TiNi]

Just putting this out there as it seems a loop hole exsists and SELLERS will have to close this loop hole asap !.

Scenario:

I buy a folder full well knowing the laws, i buy said folder knowing that if it does not reach me, lost or confiscated that Paypal will rule in my favour.

WHAT A CROCK !.

Sellers out there who ship international should take note of this thread immediately as this is a loop hole for scammers !.

 

[bigbadboom]

It seems that Australians always want to get knives but they often get stopped by customs. Blade Forums should maybe put a post in the trading sections that list places that have a good chance of losing the knife to customs. Australians have shit laws with regards to knives and they should work to change those rather than trying to get other people to get knives to them.

It shoukd be noted that you can buy pretty much anything on Australia locally .. but the price will be considerablly higher.
US to Australia would have to be 1 of the safest mail routes in the world ..Ive never lost a thing. Fixed single edge blades arrive NP heck Ive even ordered machetes from the US. Its just single handed openers customs dont like. traditionals and fixies are not a problem... I think some even order swords.....

 

[not2sharp]

I may be lost... How did Paypal rule in his favor if Dylan has proof of shipping... I think Dylan can try to overturn Paypal's ruling...

So if a package goes into customs and the contents are not contraband, but the buyer refuses to pay the import duty, then the package may not be delivered and the buyer can reverse his paypal transfer? Is there any wonder why so many are going CONUS only?

n2s

 

[Magnaminous_G]

However, I wouldn't sleep well if I knew I could have potentially put someone in jail for importing.

I strongly advise against pursuing criminal charges against George Huang, or trying to get a straight answer or action from Australian Customs, for that matter. I honestly think it's a waste of time. But that's just my 2 cents. If you really want to press charges against George Huang, you'll have to consult with a lawyer familiar with Australian law. And that will cost a pretty penny more than $400.

It looks lime you believe you can still either A) get your money, or B) get George Huang punished in some major way.

A) Very doubtful.
B) He didn't steal anything from you. He got a refund for a knife he never received. The issue with Customs is a quagmire no one has worked out yet. Maybe BF should make some rules about that? I think the current rule is just "buyer beware, seller beware." I might be wrong about that though. Does anyone know?

 

[mkelsey6]

You do what you think is right, IMO criminals should be treated as such. When they are allowed to get away with screwing people over it just encourages them to do it again.

 

[RevDevil]

IMPORTANT INFO ADDED - I had initially opened the paypal dispute because i didn't receive the item that i paid for and also i was NOT getting any response from the seller (Dylan) after a few emails i sent him just requesting a follow up on this matter. Later on with advice and much thought i opened the paypal dispute and simply express my concerns and frustration to paypal that i didn't receive the item and am NOT getting any response from the seller. And if i remembered correctly (Dylan) you are the one who responded to paypal straight away on the follwing day by escalating the dispute straight into a claim, i did not receive any direct response from you at anytime on this. Following i just received a email from paypal saying this matter has been escalated into a claim by the seller and paypal is going to investigate this matter, and following YOUR request paypal went into weeks of investigation, afterwards they decided to rule in my favour, i did not have any to say in this matter apart from my initial message to paypal. Now if you are unhappy with Paypal's decision/outcome you can complain to them about this matter.

Did you make any effort to contwct customs regarding your parcel as Andy asked? I think the reason you we not gett any response from the seller is because being on the other side of the planet, we don't have handy a familiarity with your customs offices or laws. You acted irresponsibly by contacting paypal before your customs office.