down2man (George Huang)

[ooitzoo]

Back on May 9th, you contacted me about purchasing my Umnumzaan.

This was the first email we ever had.

"I have never mailed to Australia before. Does the USPS mail to Australia? Depending on shipping cost you might need to pay a little more.

Also once it is mailed it's all in the shipping companies hands since I've never shipped internationally before."

You replied too this email with:"Yes, I'll take it please! Yep, USPS does ship to Australia ofcourse, I've bought Umnumzaan and many other knives before from
the states, no problem."

Fast forward too middle of May and when I reminded you about you taking responsibility for the package you had no problem with it, you just expressed that you were a little concerned still.

This was the last email I sent you on June 7th. You never replied.

June 14th, you filed a dispute with paypal.

I will post a full transcript of every email we had between May 9th and June 7th tomorrow. When I get time to screen shot and upload everything.





Also,

What more is it you were expecting?
You asked for insurance and tracking. Both of which I provided.

Sorry, not to wade in or anything but "...its in the shipping companies hands" and "I take responsibility" is not the same thing. Maybe there are other emails but those two statements are not identical.

 

[DylanMW]

...they/we/I do have something to do with this as it is really a test of character and integrity. You can't expect to pull a stunt like this and NOT have it trash your reputation ??

I sent dials28 two PM's. I would hardly consider that harassment. Also, he completely understood why I was upset and were I was coming from. He was rather polite in his reply.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

A lot of people came on here and trashed George Huang based on the completely unfounded notion that he A) stole the knife and sold in in Australia, and B) stated that he would take full responsibility for any shipping issues.

Now I may be a renown a-hole on BF, but that's mostly because I tell it like it is. Sorry. A propos, as concerns this case... I told you so.

A) has been proven false
B) has not been proven. In all those e-mails the OP posted, I did not see anywhere where George Huang stated anything to effect of, "I will take full responsibility for any shipping issues or if it gets stuck in customs."

I'm still waiting for that. My guess is that it is not forthcoming because he never said such a thing. If he did, then the OP still has to prove it. The rest of you can continue your unfounded lynching of George Huang.

 

[Jaytaylor]

I may be the most renown a-hole on BF, but that's mostly because I tell it like it is and that sometimes pisses off "the mob." Sorry. A propos, as concerns this case... I told you so. Yup, Magnaminous_G is an arrogant prick. He's also often right. Sorry.

Jesus! aren't you quite the ego.

A lot of people came on here and trashed George Huang based on the completely unfounded notion that he A) stole the knife and sold in in Australia, and B) stated that he would take full responsibility for any shipping issues.

A) has been proven false
B) has not been proven. In all those e-mails the OP posted, I did not see anywhere where George Huang stated anything to effect of, "I will take full responsibility for any shipping issues or if it gets stuck in customs."

Not completely unfounded at all, George has been proved to be a shady character. Lodging a claim for, in his own words a lost/stolen package and denying knowledge of the information provided by USPS tracking - I smell BS.

A) Only thing proven false is the ABF transaction. Whether or not the buyer stole the knife has not been proved, although unlikely as the tracking ends at customs however the USPS tracking has expired and will no longer show any status update. The delivery post customs is handled by an Australian post service with a new tracking no. issued. (that's how it is handled in NZ)

B)More info is needed but Dylan stated that it is out of his hands once it is mailed and George agreed to this by continuing with the transaction. It is also Georges responsibility as to what he imports into Australia and to be aware of Australian legislation.
My first purchase of a blade from the States was researched, I simply looked up the knife laws after a very quick google search and then accurately advised the seller that all was good to proceed. The onus was on George.

I'm still waiting for that. My guess is that it is not forthcoming because he never said such a thing. If he did, then the OP still has to prove it. The rest of you can continue your unfounded lynching of George Huang.

Again, not unfounded and i sure hope your arrogance gets you booted from this site, you getting to be a predicable bore.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Jesus! aren't you quite the ego.

Yours truly. Now on to your balogney assumptions.

Not completely unfounded at all, George has been proved to be a shady character. Lodging a claim for, in his own words a lost/stolen package and denying knowledge of the information provided by USPS tracking - I smell BS.

Proved to be a shady character? What is your standard of proof? If you bought a knife and it never arrived, you'd lodge a complaint, too. The only person who has made assertions that have actually been proven false is the OP. He's been claiming the whole time he has emails showing that George Huang stated he would take full responsibilty if the package ended up in customs. He has yet to show anyone those emails. I suspect they don't exist. And if he lied about that, then who's the "shady character"?

A) Only thing proven false is the ABF transaction. Whether or not the buyer stole the knife has not been proved, although unlikely as the tracking ends at customs however the USPS tracking has expired and will no longer show any status update. The delivery post customs is handled by an Australian post service with a new tracking no. issued. (that's how it is handled in NZ)

Are you suggesting he stole it from customs, James Bond style? And what does it matter how things work in NZ? The knife wasn't shipped to NZ.

B)More info is needed but Dylan stated that it is out of his hands once it is mailed and George agreed to this by continuing with the transaction. It is also Georges responsibility as to what he imports into Australia and to be aware of Australian legislation.

I don't think that has ever been the standard anywhere. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is this guy right? When you buy a knife you are automatically agreeing to accept responsibility for any shipping problems? Since when?

My first purchase of a blade from the States was researched, I simply looked up the knife laws after a very quick google search and then accurately advised the seller that all was good to proceed. The onus was on George

What does your first purchase have to do with this case?

Again, not unfounded and i sure hope your arrogance gets you booted from this site, you getting to be a predicable bore.

It sure is arrogant to defend someone, I see your point.

 

[Morrow]

Stay on topic and don't make other members the topic of conversation.

 

[Damn_Animal]

good to know that the "you must take all responsibility to for the knife once it leaves my hands" warranty doesn't protect the seller even when documented. Its sad that things like this happen because it makes me even more hesitant to shop overseas, most likely will no longer do so unless they pay via gift or money order.

Thanks Dylan for posting this, has provided a lot of information and hopefully saved individuals from taking the same kind of hit you did on this one. Plus posting his info can guarantee that a number of people will not do business with him in the future.

 

[ooitzoo]

good to know that the "you must take all responsibility to for the knife once it leaves my hands" warranty doesn't protect the seller even when documented. Its sad that things like this happen because it makes me even more hesitant to shop overseas, most likely will no longer do so unless they pay via gift or money order.

Thanks Dylan for posting this, has provided a lot of information and hopefully saved individuals from taking the same kind of hit you did on this one. Plus posting his info can guarantee that a number of people will not do business with him in the future.

So far, there hasn't been any evidence that such a "warranty" (the word you're looking for is indemnity, btw) ever existed. Maybe it does exist and Dylan has yet to post it. Maybe it doesn't and this was just a rookie mistake. Who knows?

Point is that we shouldn't condemn George on the basis on a promise that he never made.

As far as the PP claim, I can see both sides here. That said, its not like PP has a "stuck in customs" option. You have to select something as the cause for your refund claim and "item not received" is a good reason (and technically correct.).

Point is that this whole drama could have been avoided by 1: spelling out each parties responsibilities 2: using a means of payment not conducive to random refunds 3: better communication.

 

[김원진]

the conditions of the sale were clear by the seller, the buyer went through with the purchase. regardless if he literally said/typed it, he agreed to the transaction which had clear conditions.

I hope this turns out for the better for you dylan. I've shipped and bought overseas with no problems hopefully this doesn't hinder any sales you may have later with overseas people(granted australia seems a bit trickey). things to seem to be fairly clear now too.

 

[ooitzoo]

the conditions of the sale were clear by the seller, the buyer went through with the purchase. regardless if he literally said/typed it, he agreed to the transaction which had clear conditions.

I hope this turns out for the better for you dylan. I've shipped and bought overseas with no problems hopefully this doesn't hinder any sales you may have later with overseas people(granted australia seems a bit trickey). things to seem to be fairly clear now too.

No one is arguing that its not a sh!t situation. The question is where were these conditions made clear? I agree that the seller believed that was the case but its doesn't mean that it was actually explicitly stated.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

... He assured me everything would be perfectly fine and after the package left my hands he would take full responsiblity for it

... I file out my information with emails showing George telling him he takes full responsiblity for the package after it has been mailed

The entire public outrage against George Huang was based on the above claims by the OP. If the OP really did send those e-mails of "George telling him he takes full responsiblity for the package after it has been mailed," to PayPal, then why won't he post them here as evidence?

I suspect the e-mail in question doesn't exist. So it is not George Huang who has a character issue. It might be the OP... unless he can show those alleged e-mails.

 

[not2sharp]

I did not see anywhere where George Huang stated anything to effect of, "I will take full responsibility for any shipping issues or if it gets stuck in customs."....

Neither did I, However I did see where he deliberately mis-advised the shipper:

Yes, I'll take it please! Yep, USPS does ship to Australia ofcourse, I've bought Umnumzaan and many other knives before from
the states, no problem."

I also see where the shipper has made every reasonable effort to satisfy his half of the bargain:
1) He has used a reliable shipping company
2) He has insured the shipment
3) He has advised the buyer of the tracking information
4) He has correctly completed the customs declaration

There is nothing else that the shipper can do, other than buying a round trip ticket and personally transporting the item to Australia or declining the transaction entirely. Now on that latter count he has expressedly relied on information supplied by the buyer and the buyer lied.

I agree that the seller failed to do his due diligence, and if he had he would not have agreed to sell this knife, but his biggest mistake was to trust an established forum member.

I do not think that either of these guys intended to do harm to each other. There was simply an over abundance of wishful thinking on both sides of the trade, until customs stepped in to rain on their parade. I would hope that both of these guys can agree to share the damages. Perhaps George will step up and agree to contribute 50% of the price+plus shipping, and Dylan can write off his loss as the cost of a lesson learned.

The world is growing ever more complicated for knife collectors and if we are to continue to enjoy sharing our hobby we are gong to have to learn to work together.

n2s

 

[Magnaminous_G]

The world is growing ever more complicated for knife collectors and if we are going to enjoy sharing our hobby we are gong to have to learn to work together.

+1.

Quote of the day

 

[masa]

I think the problem is how paypal charges back. There should be more cash payment or western union money tranfer or other alternatives.

 

[ranger232]

Neither did I, However I did see where he deliberately mis-advised the shipper:



I also see where the shipper has made every reasonable effort to satisfy his half of the bargain:
1) He has used a reliable shipping company
2) He has insured the shipment
3) He has advised the buyer of the tracking information
4) He has correctly completed the customs declaration

There is nothing else that the shipper can do, other than buying a round trip ticket and personally transporting the item to Australia or declining the transaction entirely. Now on that latter count he has expressedly relied on information supplied by the buyer and the buyer lied.

I agree that the seller failed to do his due diligence, and if he had he would not have agreed to sell this knife, but his biggest mistake was to trust an established forum member.

I do not think that either of these guys intended to do harm to each other. There was simply an over abundance of wishful thinking on both sides of the trade, until customs stepped in to rain on their parade. I would hope that both of these guys can agree to share the damages. Perhaps George will step up and agree to contribute 50% of the price+plus shipping, and Dylan can write off his loss as the cost of a lesson learned.

The world is growing ever more complicated for knife collectors and if we are to continue to enjoy sharing our hobby we are gong to have to learn to work together.

n2s

I agree with Mag_G and think this is the most sound, ego free, non bashing advice given in this whole thread. +1

 

[pry]

I guess if someone says "i take no responsibility for the item once it leaves the states, its in the shipping companies hands" and then you agree to still purchase the item, you can still hold the seller responsible for the item. Good to know that if you agree to the clear terms of the sale you don't have to uphold your agreement. Even if Dylan never said anything about responsibility, the buyer knows the laws in his area, its his fault the knife was taken by customs because he knew the risks when he ordered it.

 

[MEJ]

Thats the part that kind of freaks me out.. i am totally new to using paypal and i have no real understanding of claims and the proof of delivery and how to protect my account.

Now i see i can be charged money and forced to pay it wih paypal never really understanding the situation... This scares the shit out of me!

I think the problem is how paypal charges back. There should be more cash payment or western union money tranfer or other alternatives.

 

[ooitzoo]

I guess if someone says "i take no responsibility for the item once it leaves the states, its in the shipping companies hands" and then you agree to still purchase the item, you can still hold the seller responsible for the item. Good to know that if you agree to the clear terms of the sale you don't have to uphold your agreement. Even if Dylan never said anything about responsibility, the buyer knows the laws in his area, its his fault the knife was taken by customs because he knew the risks when he ordered it.

show me where he said this. There was a vague agreement that usps would be responsible.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

A seizure by Customs is NOT an issue for the seller to be held responsible for, if the item has been properly packaged labeled and shipped but taken by Customs at the other end because it is classed as a PROHIBITED IMPORT and the buyer knows this then why should the seller be responsible ? Especially as the buyer had made all the assurances ?

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I am interested to know also if George has initiated any correspondance with the Firearms and Weapons Section in Canberra (not just calling the generic 1300 number as they will have no clue at all) as it is almost certainly them that are presently in possession of the knife. Aus Customs are also known NOT to be the fastest moverers in the world. I have had a pair of boots held by them for over three months previously.