Ed Fowler You Need to open your eyes

ED, I too have been aproached by wealthy customers/collectors offering much larger sums than what I chcarge for a Lovett, just to move them up on the list. I am a terrible buisnessman. I just cannot do it. Sure I could use the money. Who can't. But it just isn't fair to my loyal customers.

Hlee, If you don't want the old stories, and provanance means nothing to you. Along with pride of workmanship, and the years perfecting a craft, may I suggest Wal-Mart. This is where you should be buying all of your tools. I see no need for such comments in the Custom Knife threads.

M. Lovett
 
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I guess my only question after all this would be:
-Does an honest working man looking for an honest working knife care about the history or "soul" of the materials his working knife is made from, or is he mainly looking for a quality tool regardless of composition?

Some of this discussion comes dangerously close to suggesting that somehow meager means and meager materials impart a greater wealth on an otherwise "working class knife."
 
on the history and and soul

i like to think that finished knives by me are born and will make there own history and memories for the new owner

knives on stands are cool too but i just dont make many of them
 
David Schott said:
I guess my only question after all this would be:
-Does an honest working man looking for an honest working knife care about the history or "soul" of the materials his working knife is made from, or is he mainly looking for a quality tool regardless of composition?

Some of this discussion comes dangerously close to suggesting that somehow meager means and meager materials impart a greater wealth on an otherwise "working class knife."
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Good questions.

Two points that have also struck me in this discussion:

1) I really don't understand what an "honest" knife is - or what, by implication, a "dishonest" knife would be.

2) The "honest working man" must be doing very well for himself these days.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Good questions.

Two points that have also struck me in this discussion:

1) I really don't understand what an "honest" knife is - or what, by implication, a "dishonest" knife would be.

2) The "honest working man" must be doing very well for himself these days.

Roger
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Agreed!

If a simple working knife costs $1500+, its an expensive representation of a working knife rather than an actual working knife. Its silly to take a knife whose function is based in the working class and inflate its price to where the average working man could not use that knife in good conscience. Thats like making a plumber's wrench out of gold and then saying "this is a working man's monkey wrench." The wrnech might be a good one, but its silly to call it anything but what it is. $1500 custom knives are not intended for the working man as a tool...unless wages on working class jobs have gone WAY up lately or the maker has lost touch with reality, IMHO. Thats not to say expensive customs aren't meant to be used...just that theres a difference between using an expensive custom knife and that same expensive custom knife being describes as a "working man's knife," which implies it is a highly functional basic tool with few embellishments other than those which aid in functionality and geared towards a cost afforable for the average worker looking to use the knife as a tool rather than a collector's piece.
 
where does the 'tactical knife' fit into all this?
 
Very interesting post by David Schott. How are Ed´s prices right now? I don´t have a clue... but I know they are not cheap (before you think I asked the question out of sarcasm or anything, I really don´t have a clue).

Jeff Velasco
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
in this discussion I dont believe the " type" or " style " of knife is of any relevance. After many years I am still trying to figure out how an object can be tactical ??
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This one is pretty simple.

Back in the mid 80's or so, everyone was busting butt on finish, trying to bring everything to a flawless, museum grade mirror polish, or hand-rubbed satin finish that was even more ball busting. Ivories and pearls ruled the roost for handle materials, with exotic stone coming in close, but it was heavy....and because the finish was taking so much time, it was getting expensive.....and laborious, tedious, boring and increased the potential for screwing up the knife at the last segment of construction....so....

Astute makers such as Carson, Crawford, Hammond, Lum,Terzuola....decided to start bead blasting the snot out of everything, use titanium for handles, and use micarta for scale materials....and it lowered the price of the knife substantially.....instead of charging $500.00 for a hand made folder in 1986, they could offer a nice piece for $250-300.00 that had all the performance of the prettier knives, but not the sparkle.

Really, as far as I can tell, the term "Tactical Knife" is a marketing term....because "bead blasted, more affordable" doesn't have the same ring. The knives sold very respectably, but it wasn't until the Benchmade/Emerson CQC6/975S that the popularity explosion took off....it became the Lile Rambo knife of the 90's....I also think the first Gulf War helped fuel popularity of this style, as being "military" at the time was "cool" again.

Mike Lovett, your retort to hlee is unfair....the buyer doesn't have to need the "story" in order to be an astute buyer of something superior...he or she may simply recognize high quality in comparison to a mass manufactured product, and if they have the money to purchase, get it.

If you want groupies, start a band....;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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Mr Garsson , great reply , and I agree 100%
the term "Tactical Knife" is a marketing term
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.

I also agree you don't need to hear the story to appreciate the knife , any more than you have to a possess a SCCA license to appreciate a sports car.

Great discussion points.
 
then perhaps the dollar value has no relevance?

I know lots of 'working men' who make substantially more than I do. In fact, almost every man I know is a working one. Some of them like knives, and buy the best, (for them) that they can afford.

Perhaps the 'honesty' of a knife is really more to the point, as many alluded to.

Perhaps 'tactical' fits into this conversation as a talking point.
I have read many old school knife makers refer to 'new' knives as 'sharpened crowbars'. That many of this new form of design mentality commands top dollar is very interesting to me.

Is this about a 'working man's knife', or a 'working man's wages'?

Where can we draw the line on relativity here? Or can we?
 
BrB said:
Very interesting post by David Schott. How are Ed´s prices right now? I don´t have a clue... but I know they are not cheap (before you think I asked the question out of sarcasm or anything, I really don´t have a clue).

Jeff Velasco
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The most recent I can find is a quote that Ed was selling his basic pronghorn models for around $2300 at Blade...but don't quote me on that because I cannot verify it.

I don't mean to imply at all that Ed's knives arent worth their price. I am instead implying that calling something a "honest working man's knife" seems a stretch when the average working man cannot afford to buy, nevermind use, the knife for work. The comments that there are few new makers offering such knives seems out of place when the author is not offering them, either. It seems to me like Rolex writing an editorial claiming that no new watch companies are offering basic timepieces for the average man.

Its one thing to make knives for the average man, from above-average materials, using above-average skills and techniques...its another thing to keep their prices within the budget of the intended audience. Perhaps this is a self-defeating process, though. Perhaps the amount of work, expertise and testing required to make a superior working knife is simply too high to keep the resulting knives affordable for the working man. Maybe that is why new makers are looking into different niches of knifemaking from the get-go...they simply don't see themselves making as much of a profit from margin of the market which demands high-performance, low-cost knives. Perhaps with moden production capabilites of knife companies, the market for affordable, reliable working man knives has been taken by those companies which results in more new makers focusing on other areas of the knife market.
 
Lorien said:
Perhaps 'tactical' fits into this conversation as a talking point.
I have read many old school knife makers refer to 'new' knives as 'sharpened crowbars'. That many of this new form of design mentality commands top dollar is very interesting to me.

Is this about a 'working man's knife', or a 'working man's wages'?

Where can we draw the line on relativity here? Or can we?
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I think it starts with a "working man's knife", Lorien. This is the intent of the maker....he (or she) is making the knife to be used, not to sit on a shelf. The liberal use of gold, engraving, scrimshaw, rare ivory or pearl and nickel in the blade if damascus, makes the "intent" of the knife lean more towards "not hard" use than "hard use", which may be an attribute of a working knife to the maker.

Many makers to this day make a working man's knife for working man's wages. A skilled tradesman could easily make $200.00 a day...so if they purchase a working knife for $300.00 or so, this is direct sweat equity...they work hard, the maker works hard, and each gets paid a fair wage.

When the maker becomes popular and demand exceeds output, the prices become skewed, many times not on the primary market, but on the secondary market....this is when the status of the knife changes from a tool to a commodity...and most people stop using the knife for its' intended purpose, right or wrong, like for a Dan Farr hunter that sells from Dan for $400.00 or so.....it immediately gets turned for double or close to it. Dan can control this somewhat by making more knives or raising his prices, but seems to have a hard time doing either.

This is what happened with Loveless, who designed even his sexy knives to be used, but he got pissed at the naked greed, so he raised his prices, significantly.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Mr Lovett, perhaps you missed this part of my previous post.

hlee said:
What I look for in a knife are constuction, materials, and workmanship that make the knife excel in what it is supposed to do... As Mr. Levine says in his forum, "buy the knife, not the story."
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Paying for quality workmanship and first class materials and construction is one thing- paying for a sentimental story that has no bearing on the performance of the knife, and that has no sentimental value to me is quite another.

Mystery steel, unsuitable for a knife blade, regardless of the story attached, is still unsuitable for a knife blade.

Makers are not selling out just because they source first class materials of known provenance from reputable suppliers and manufacturers. Quite the opposite. If done well, they are making a knife that does not have to rely on a story to sell.

"Confederate Civil War bowies" have to rely on the story to sell.

Great knives from great makers should not.

By the way, I do shop at Walmart for some things. Just not for knives. There are just too many makers selling great knives for even better prices, right here on bladeforums in the makers forum.
 
that's some insight, Steve, right there.
 
Michael Lovett said:
ED, I too have been aproached by wealthy customers/collectors offering much larger sums than what I chcarge for a Lovett, just to move them up on the list. I am a terrible buisnessman. I just cannot do it. Sure I could use the money. Who can't. But it just isn't fair to my loyal customers.

Hlee, If you don't want the old stories, and provanance means nothing to you. Along with price of workmanship, and the years perfecting a craft, may I suggest Wal-Mart. This is where you should be buying all of your tools. I see no need for such comments in the Custom Knife threads.

M. Lovett
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Why would he do that when he could buy a knife of known quantity and quality by a maker like Tom Krein, or Lucas Burnley or any number of makers that turn out great knives at a great price? They may not have a story behind them but they will certainly work well, and for several lifetimes.

Respectfully, can I ask what story your knives tell? Are makers that have no story behind thier knives any less of a Craftsman? Cant good materials, good heat treatment, good design, and great excecution tell a story of its own?
 
The most recent I can find is a quote that Ed was selling his basic pronghorn models for around $2300 at Blade...but don't quote me on that because I cannot verify it.

I don't mean to imply at all that Ed's knives arent worth their price. I am instead implying that calling something a "honest working man's knife" seems a stretch when the average working man cannot afford to buy, nevermind use, the knife for work.
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I know you were not meaning to imply anything, but the disconnection between speech and action is there. And that took away half of the part of the text I was considering good.

Now about the story behind the knife... the way I see it is that the story is important in the same intensity it matters to the buyer. We have seen here there is people willing to buy knives with a story (and even pay the extra) and people who don´t. That sets two different kinds of products to me, and to each there is a market of its own.

I guess this debate is going getting where we are now mixing apples and oranges as it is clear now that we are discussing two different products and the market clearly see it that way.

Jeff Velasco
 
I understand that the average American worker makes $28,000/yr and has $17,000 credit card debt. Such a worker never quests for the best of anything, which is why he drives a Chevy or a Ford, often lives in a trailer, and shoots a M870/M700 Rem.

The more passionate guys and gals that hunt often participate on various hunting forums. I would say 75% of the ultimate custom hunting knives they covet is covered by Dozier, Ingram, May, and Denning. I once saw a Burt Foster blue collar knife mentioned, but never have I seen Ed Fowler or Mike Lovett listed.

The reasons are simple--affordability, durability (D2 and stainless steel) and the ultimate, indestructible knife is not required. A.G. Russell, referring to Dozier's Yukon skinner, explains, "It is not unusual for one of these to keep a usable edge through 6-10 big game animals, not field dressing, but breaking briskets and reducing the animal to transportable size." For most hunters, such a knife would require sharpening about once per decade or 3 times a lifetime. And one can buy a Dozier without waiting or markup from A.G. for $200-300. I bought a ss folder from a local maker about 25 years ago for $70 and skinned and dressed the better part of 2 Alaskan moose on my first hunt with it without touching up. I was ecstatic, and demand nothing more from a user.

I have high respect for Ed and Mike for their skill and dedication, but when the topic is "working" man "using" knives and the attendant call for the mostest for the leastest, their knives are largely irrelevant.

ken
 
David Schott said:
The most recent I can find is a quote that Ed was selling his basic pronghorn models for around $2300 at Blade...but don't quote me on that because I cannot verify it.
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I am given to understand that for a full size Fowler bowie or camp knife (the kind of knife that most interests me) you are looking at 5 figures, not 4. If I am wrong in this, then someone set me straight. I think Ed's big knives are nothing short of fantastic and I don't doubt they readily find willing and appreciative buyers. But the price does not jive with my concept of a knife for the "honest working man".

Lorien said:
Perhaps the 'honesty' of a knife is really more to the point, as many alluded to.
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Perhaps you can explain to me what an honest knife is and what a dishonest knife is. Such terminology is very much in play here, but I don't know what it means.

Roger
 
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