Ed Fowler You Need to open your eyes

an honest knife says it can do a job, and does it. A dishonest knife says it can do a job, but doesn't.
:D
 
That is a solid definition Lorien, but still I think Ed has a more complex definition that may differ or have more requirements that the one you propose, and this is what I would like to understand if Ed is willing to share his point of view. Like Roger I am confused.

Jeff Velasco
 
BrB said:
That is a solid definition Lorien, but still I think Ed has a more complex definition that may differ or have more requirements that the one you propose, and this is what I would like to understand if Ed is willing to share his point of view. Like Roger I am confused.

Jeff Velasco
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Ed already explained his definition when I inquired back around page 4:

Ed Fowler said:
John: A working knife is one that is designed and developed to do the intended job. For some it may be a letter opener, for another it may have to trim sheet rock, lever a door, cut insulation, open a paint can and strip wire and trim shingles. All working knives should be rated by the maker as to what they can do and their limitations, just honest presentation of the knife for what she is.
Blade geometry, the steel you use and your knowledge of that steel are only gained through testing.A lot of study is required on the part of the maker, you never know the limits of your knife until you test it to destruction. No book can reveal the information gained through testing a random sample to destruction. Test your knives doing the jobs they are meant for and test relentlessly. The knowledge gained will be your greatest achievement.

If you make light duty knives, advise clients as to the limits of the knife.

.
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What I gather is ...
An honest working knife is one that can do exactly what the maker claims it can do , and in the case of a working knife , it should be able to cut , hold an edge for a reasonable amount of time , be comfortable to use and be able to hold up to long term use that a knife would be used for.
 
As others have noted it was Ed's purpose to make us think and ponder.I believe he was very successful.As to "a workings man's knife" Im in agreement with Roger in the fact that Ed's knives are well beyond the price of the average working man.To me a workings man's knife should cost no more than a few days to a weeks wages.I know of few working men bringing in 4-5 figure weekly pay checks.There is no doubt Ed's knives are up to the task but I have to wonder how many field hands,vaqueros,oil workers,etc are going to pull out a 1000$ plus knife to do chores.
 
Lorien said:
an honest knife says it can do a job, and does it. A dishonest knife says it can do a job, but doesn't.
:D
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Doesn't or can't?

So an honest knife is one capable of performing its intended task? If that's all there is to it, I sure haven't come across too very many dishonest knives.

Roger
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
What I gather is ...
An honest working knife is one that can do exactly what the maker claims it can do , and in the case of a working knife , it should be able to cut , hold an edge for a reasonable amount of time , be comfortable to use and be able to hold up to long term use that a knife would be used for.
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John - do you perceive such knives to be hard to find / on the decline / disappearing from the custom knife landscape / or however that sentiment may be phrased?

Roger
 
I went to a show, I saw one knife that impressed me. Well done and a tribute to hard working folks living in what most of those reading this would call absolute poverty. I liked Dan and Neil's tribute to a time and place, and wrote my honest thoughts at the time. I sought to use their work to encourage other new and established makers to be confident in following their dream against the odds - as some of you display. Now you are talking about my Knives?
 
Ed Fowler said:
A working knife is one that is designed and developed to do the intended job. For some it may be a letter opener, for another it may have to trim sheet rock, lever a door, cut insulation, open a paint can and strip wire and trim shingles. All working knives should be rated by the maker as to what they can do and their limitations, just honest presentation of the knife for what she is.
Blade geometry, the steel you use and your knowledge of that steel are only gained through testing.A lot of study is required on the part of the maker, you never know the limits of your knife until you test it to destruction. No book can reveal the information gained through testing a random sample to destruction. Test your knives doing the jobs they are meant for and test relentlessly. The knowledge gained will be your greatest achievement.
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I get this. A "hunter" shouldnt be called a hunter unless the maker has ensured that it can actually handle the tasks a typical hunting knife will be required to do. My question is how Ed has came to the conclusion that new makers aren't creating honest knives. Though that is not explicitely said in the article, its pretty clear that he doesn't see too many out there.

IMHO, there is testing and then there is questing. Testing to ensure your knives can handle the tasks they will need to is one thing. Questing after the mythical "perfect quench" is another. I think you can test your knives sucessfully enough to make "honest" knives without making it your life quest to master the testing process. A recent thread on how much testing custom collectors expect seems to support this...
 
Ed Fowler said:
I went to a show, I saw one knife that impressed me. Well done and a tribute to hard working folks living in what most of those reading this would call absolute poverty. I liked Dan and Neil's tribute to a time and place, and wrote my honest thoughts at the time. I sought to use their work to encourage other new and established makers to be confident in following their dream against the odds - as some of you display. Now you are talking about my Knives?
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I think much of the discussion hinges on the difference between:
1. A knife for the hard working man
2. A knife that pays tribute to the hard working man

1. Needs to be accessible to that man, useful to that man, and affordable to that man (which is why people are looking at your knives as you are the author)
2. Needs only to pay homage to the man who needs knife #1 but doesnt need to be accessible to him.
 
I just got out of surgery, my Dr. said don't make any big decisions or commitments for at least 2 days.
David consider yourself a lucky man!
 
Ed Fowler said:
I went to a show, I saw one knife that impressed me. Well done and a tribute to hard working folks living in what most of those reading this would call absolute poverty. I liked Dan and Neil's tribute to a time and place, and wrote my honest thoughts at the time. I sought to use their work to encourage other new and established makers to be confident in following their dream against the odds - as some of you display. Now you are talking about my Knives?
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1. Ed, to quote my late father, "I've been rich and I've been poor....poor sucks".

When I was in the Navy and apprenticing to be a tattoo artist, due to not having a car, and where my ship was geographically located, I spent a fair amount of time sleeping on the streets....it is not noble, it is not romantic, it is not something to be celebrated...it is cold, and hard, and dangerous, and lonely...that is what being poor is. Maybe it is a crucible, but I don't ever want to get back to that place.

2. Your honesty has NEVER been questioned, clarification on your perspective is what is mostly being requested at this point.

3. I have read many of your words, Ed. That knife that Dan made is, ahem, a tribute to something, I am sure, but it doesn't look real authentic to me. I'm not sure what the inspiration to new makers is? What are they supposed to learn from it? I find the work of David Yellowhorse and family to be inspirational, and authentic, as a comparison. The knife does not look comfortable to hold and use, which is something that I always took as of paramount importance to you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
RogerP said:
John - do you perceive such knives to be hard to find / on the decline / disappearing from the custom knife landscape / or however that sentiment may be phrased?

Roger
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I see plenty of these type of knives , granted I have not been to many shows , but going off the Vegas show last year , I saw plenty , and judging by the makers for sale area here , I would again say there are plenty of honest working knives available. Though it seems the majority of the affordable ones are by the newer makers.

As Trace mentioned Tom Krein and Lucas Burnley ( who both in my opinion make the best bang for the buck using knives ) , I would add Dozier to that list as well , and a few more names if I took the time to really think on it a bit. ( another would be Barry Dawson ) , these are makers who have been around the block a few times and still offer a solid user knife at a price that you can afford to use.


I don't agree however , that for a knife to work well as a hunter , that the maker himself has to be a hunter.

I recently made a knife for someone who went on a hunt in NZ , hunting for Red Stag , a friend asked me to make his friend a knife for this trip. I did , nothing fancy , 154cm , tapered tang , green micarta. I am not a hunter , however he said the knife performs excellent on the 800+ red stag he bagged. The guides he was with , liked it so much that he left it with them as a tip , and for me to be able to get some feedback on the knife getting used ( I did not charge for this knife , it was a good will gesture for a friend ).
 
Kohai999 said:
1. Ed, to quote my late father, "I've been rich and I've been poor....poor sucks".

When I was in the Navy and apprenticing to be a tattoo artist, due to not having a car, and where my ship was geographically located, I spent a fair amount of time sleeping on the streets....it is not noble, it is not romantic, it is not something to be celebrated...it is cold, and hard, and dangerous, and lonely...that is what being poor is. Maybe it is a crucible, but I don't ever want to get back to that place.

2. Your honesty has NEVER been questioned, clarification on your perspective is what is mostly being requested at this point.

3. I have read many of your words, Ed. That knife that Dan made is, ahem, a tribute to something, I am sure, but it doesn't look real authentic to me. I'm not sure what the inspiration to new makers is? What are they supposed to learn from it? I find the work of David Yellowhorse and family to be inspirational, and authentic, as a comparison. The knife does not look comfortable to hold and use, which is something that I always took as of paramount importance to you.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I too, have tasted the govt. cheese and it BLOWS!
 
One of the things I love about this industry is that there is a broad spectrum of knives for everyone. What a boring place this would be if everyones knives looked the same or kept rehashing the same things over and over . For those that love knives with a story to tell or with historical influence there are plenty of makers to choose from. For those that want art knives with all the bells and whistles , there are plenty of makers to choose from. And for those that want just about everything in between, well again there are plenty of makers to choose from . I don't understand why anyone would want to drive a wedge between types of knives or methods of making knives. To use the term "honest mans working knife" as a means to segregate a group of makers from another doesn't set well with me . Fact is I love knives ! I love fixed ,folders ,forged ,stock removal,stainless,carbon,art ......You get the picture. I think it's awesome to go to a show and see a diverse group of makers paying homage to and celebrating the knife in all its diversity. I also think there is nothing wrong with the production knife. Without the production knife I'm confident the custom industry would suffer.In fact the production knife is the "working mans knife"because they are bought on a much larger scale than customs and used much more often in day to day tasks than customs.
Mike ,You are a very talented maker and I admire your skills and dedication. My production knives are sold at walmart as well as many other places that may be looked down upon by some folks however I am pleased to build an affordable knife to service those without the means to go custom. Or to introduce a knife to those that have never carried or owned a knife before. My first knife as well as many other folks first knife was a production knife which sparked a fire in me and a love for knives which has led me to where I am now . So I do take it as bit of a kick in the jimmies to minimize the importance of the production knife.Athough I know that wasn't your intent.
Most of us build what we build because it's what we like to build and use ourselves and luckily there are those out there that like what we build and buy them.
Ed , You also build an incredible knife and have a great following Thats great . I understand what you were saying in your article but respectfully disagree. We don't all have to look at knives through the same set of glasses to build knives with soul. Your interpretation of an" Honest working mans knife"may differ from others,your needs may differ from others .I think it better to encourage the new guys and inspire them to seek out the perfect knife for themselves and not discredit the knives you saw at a show because they didn't speak to you personally. I read your articles regularly and you are doing great work and have a great following however I believe the knife market to be much bigger than just 52100 ,sheep horn,forged knives and historical perspective.
 
KenOnion said:
One of the things I love about this industry is that there is a broad spectrum of knives for everyone. What a boring place this would be if everyones knives looked the same or kept rehashing the same things over and over . For those that love knives with a story to tell or with historical influence there are plenty of makers to choose from. For those that want art knives with all the bells and whistles , there are plenty of makers to choose from. And for those that want just about everything in between, well again there are plenty of makers to choose from . I don't understand why anyone would want to drive a wedge between types of knives or methods of making knives. To use the term "honest mans working knife" as a means to segregate a group of makers from another doesn't set well with me . Fact is I love knives ! I love fixed ,folders ,forged ,stock removal,stainless,carbon,art ......You get the picture. I think it's awesome to go to a show and see a diverse group of makers paying homage to and celebrating the knife in all its diversity. I also think there is nothing wrong with the production knife. Without the production knife I'm confident the custom industry would suffer.In fact the production knife is the "working mans knife"because they are bought on a much larger scale than customs and used much more often in day to day tasks than customs.
Mike ,You are a very talented maker and I admire your skills and dedication. My production knives are sold at walmart as well as many other places that may be looked down upon by some folks however I am pleased to build an affordable knife to service those without the means to go custom. Or to introduce a knife to those that have never carried or owned a knife before. My first knife as well as many other folks first knife was a production knife which sparked a fire in me and a love for knives which has led me to where I am now . So I do take it as bit of a kick in the jimmies to minimize the importance of the production knife.Athough I know that wasn't your intent.
Most of us build what we build because it's what we like to build and use ourselves and luckily there are those out there that like what we build and buy them.
Ed , You also build an incredible knife and have a great following Thats great . I understand what you were saying in your article but respectfully disagree. We don't all have to look at knives through the same set of glasses to build knives with soul. Your interpretation of an" Honest working mans knife"may differ from others,your needs may differ from others .I think it better to encourage the new guys and inspire them to seek out the perfect knife for themselves and not discredit the knives you saw at a show because they didn't speak to you personally. I read your articles regularly and you are doing great work and have a great following however I believe the knife market to be much bigger than just 52100 ,sheep horn,forged knives and historical perspective.
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Absofreakinlutely Kahuna!!:thumbup: Thats a great post Ken and echo's my thoughts exactly.

I think the division in the knife community has been going on far too long, and this is more of the same. I think the coolest things I see at shows are born out of bringing all schools of thought together. Seeing modern design mixed with old school materials and vice versa, watching makers get together and collaborate whether they be Master Smith, Stock removal "tactical" makers or whatever, and creating something unique. I think there is room for all idea's and ways of doing things even if we personally dont like how something is done or made. To make blanket statments, and write a whole group of new-minded, talented, hard working makers off because of a percieved lack of nostalgia or "home" is something that should not be fostered with all due respect. It may not have been intended but it looks like thats the outcome unfortunately.


BTW I didnt mention it before since John Wylie was posting in this thread, but there is another great example of a maker quietly making a great "honest, working mans" knife..:thumbup:
 
Well said Ken , and thanks Trace , I just make what I want and if it sells so be it , if not , I leave it lay around till Fed shows up and takes it ;)
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
I see plenty of these type of knives , granted I have not been to many shows , but going off the Vegas show last year , I saw plenty , and judging by the makers for sale area here , I would again say there are plenty of honest working knives available. Though it seems the majority of the affordable ones are by the newer makers.
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I see plenty of them too - which is what I found utterly perplexing about the basic premise of Ed's article. Where are the makers turning out honest working knives? Heck, where aren't they?

Also, keep in mind that what you see on a maker's table at a show will not necessarily reflect the full spectrum of his work. The maker has to bring knives that will sell and net him enough profit to at least cover expenses and hopefully add a few dollars to the bottom line. Depending on the venue, it may not be the place to have several examples of entry level models. Two Master Smiths I can think of off the top of my head - Ed Caffrey and Burt Foster - make a simple, straightforward unadorned hand-forged, hard working knife at a very accessible pricepoint (at or under $200 for the Caffrey EBK or Foster Blue Collar).

Now both guys can also turn out a very elaborate pieces and one could certainly point to those and decry the prevalence of fancy knives in the custom knife landscape, but that observation would be based on willful blindness to the full spectrum of their work.

Roger

PS - Ken - VERY well said.
 
Thanks guys ! I pondered voicing my opinion in this thread for two days . I Have a great deal of respect and admiration for Ed and Michael and like many of you I didn't want to shit in anyones shoes. We are all workin folk making a living and doing what we love. Most of us are very passionate about our craft and we all have our opinions.But we gotta stick together and help the next generation with a gentle hand and plenty of encouragement. That don't mean we have to like everything they make . I love to see this industry grow in spite of the fact that that laws are getting tighter and there are those that would love to see what we do outlawed.
 
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