Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

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You guys are right about the 562cf and the 801 there is value . But the 560 for $260 , the 301 for $270 the 550 for $200 . For those prices you are looking at microtech knives . Sorry I dont see the value there and for that the ZT 200 is $160 na all pass . I will say there new stuff look good . And I might end up getting the 562 CF just because it's the IMHO the best looking knife for the price . Benchmade ever since they went MAP I haven't bought a new one and I don't see my self buying one . The 940-1 is a nice $200 knife but I can't find a dealer with that price so I'll pass until I can find one .
 
Strange how these brand managers seem to hate online selling. There is little room for competitive advantage, as there is so little service involved for a large portion of sales. Outside of answering a few emails, the largest impact a seller has on the customer is how quickly they hand the product over to a third party, the shipper. Have a decent website that isn't hard to navigate, use polite language, keep accurate inventory. Not huge hurdles. Not saying they can operate on cruise control, but there isn't much differentiation, just meeting base expectations for the industry. That means cost controls and competing on value become paramount.

There is no differentiation of product, they are selling the same brand manager/manufacturer and the same models, outside of ponying for upfront costs on exclusive sprints - which are hardly worth it if the brand manager will undermine the idea of exclusivity in short order with re-issuance for wide distribution. Why buy from one site instead of another? Maybe one uses UPS but your area is better served by FedEx. Beyond that, price becomes a major factor. A ZT or BM from retailer A is going to be a ZT or BM from retailer B, you'll just order the cheaper one. Well, that's gone. I suppose the brand managers will expect the sellers to drive costs down further and offer free shipping, kitschy order bonuses, or something else to separate themselves from the competition - increasing their carrying costs or requiring more labor when they actually had a viable means to compete on cost controls, but they have no way to reflect that in pricing.

I guess they can all sit on unsold inventory for greater stretches of time, increase their wait on cash conversion, and just all around be less efficient. Highly competitive, no switching costs for buyers, no differentiation in products, pitiably low barriers to entry, and now super-duper-extra-strength supplier power. The American online retailer maybe should be looking for another product line to carry, because knives aren't going to hold their luster so easily if this continues for more brands. The general disdain for sellers and unabashed love for brands seems highly dysfunctional. The seller is the relative small-timer who communicates with you and relies more heavily on your transaction, they generally don't have government orders and global distribution to put food in their bellies.
 
I think I'm finally understanding some of the comments in this thread. All it took was wearing the right hat.

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The corporate oligarchy is suppressing the masses via MAP.:D
 
I think I'm finally understanding some of the comments in this thread. All it took was wearing the right hat.

15140517629_ff9803f127_o.png


The corporate oligarchy is suppressing the masses via MAP.:D

hahaha. :thumbup:
 
You can't handle the truth, and the truth is out there, way far out there.

Corporate apologist?

And no, for your information, I'm a closet oligarchicist. My closet is so massive it took me a while to find the right hat. ;-)
 
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This new policy disappoints me. I'm a fan of both ZT and Benchmade (although I think ZT gives you higher quality for the money). I'm not sure I'll buy either brand much in the future if I have to pay MAP. This strikes me as an ill-advised and short-sighted move. Nor am I inclined, however, to shift my knife purchases to the Chinese brands, as has been mentioned. I'll admit that Kizer appears to make some nice knives, with quality materials, but I'd rather continue to support US manufacturing whenever possible.
 
I just ordered my 0770cf in Elmax for the VERY reduced price of $131, instead of $180. Could have gotten the M390 for $180 instead of the new MAP $220, but passed on it.
Sure, M390 is a top steel, but Elmax will work just fine for me, and Jim Ankerson tested it and approved it as a great EDC.
Good enough for me; I'm a happy camper and I saved a bundle.
Sonnydaze
 
Remember KAI wants to grow as a company, and that means adding new contracts for dealers and distribution so that they have full market penetration. Sometimes in order to do this you have to make tough choices, like enforcing a policy that allows dealers to compete with each other the old fashioned way.....using advertising, marketing, business relationships, dickering, etc.

Explain to me how setting one uniform minimum price allows dealers to "compete". The whole concept of RPM/MAP stops companies from doing exactly what you said: advertising and marketing that they have a lower price than everyone else, creating business relationships that allow them to sell products for slightly less in order to sell in volume, and of course to Dicker. Dickering in essence means giving the buyer a break/deal on something, which cannot happen if a minimum price is set.

Perhaps I'm to old fashioned, but it is going to take more than flashy dealer ad campaigns to get me to buy something from someone different. Under RPM/MAP we may as well just settle for the first dealer that comes up in any online search, because the only thing we will be saving is time.
 
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Why buy from one site instead of another? Maybe one uses UPS but your area is better served by FedEx. Beyond that, price becomes a major factor. A ZT or BM from retailer A is going to be a ZT or BM from retailer B, you'll just order the cheaper one. Well, that's gone. I suppose the brand managers will expect the sellers to drive costs down further and offer free shipping, kitschy order bonuses, or something else to separate themselves from the competition - increasing their carrying costs or requiring more labor when they actually had a viable means to compete on cost controls, but they have no way to reflect that in pricing.

This guy gets it. Why even have dealers if they all sell something for the same cost? You could find creative new ways to choose a dealer; most tactical website format, throw darts at paper, pull a name out of a hat, or that thing where you cut the chicken's head off and let it run around.

Note: I don't actually advocate the method that involves the chicken. It's messy and cruel.
 
Yep, nothing out there with reputations for reliability better than Jaguar or Land Rover. :rolleyes:

The Jags that I recall were English and had Lucas dual ignitions and were great, but they wouldn't run two days in a row. I guess when Ford bought 'em, maybe that helped somewhat.

OTOH, their 3-liter coupes, IIRC, were absolutely beautiful. Never mind...thinking back a few...to the great Porsches and bug-eyed Sprites and MG's.
 
Corporate apologist?
Obviously not. Anyone actually speaking of corporations or other business entities would talk of oligopoly, but somehow we managed to slide on over to political science. I wonder when there will be an antitrust lawsuit accusing a corporation of holding "corporate monarchy" power. :D
 
I envy all of you who have loads of local B&Ms with pricing equal to online retailers' MAP pricing. This year I have been to multiple knife/gun stores in CA, MD, NM, LA, OR and I have never been to a B&M store that wasn't scalping customers for at least MSRP (until I visited KnivesShipFree in Oregon on vacation last month :thumbup:). Is it a real thing to see shelf pricing equal to MAP in most stores or is this a matter of hagglers scraping for discounts?

MAP is still a screamin' deal relative to the vast majority of stores I have ever visited.

I don't even go into my local shop; every time I have looked in, the ding dong working behind the counter is wrist whipping and snapping knives open to impress teenagers. Abused knife for over MSRP? No thanks.
 
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Explain to me how setting one uniform minimum price allows dealers to "compete". The whole concept of RPM/MAP stops companies from doing exactly what you said: advertising and marketing that they have a lower price than everyone else, creating business relationships that allow them to sell products for slightly less in order to sell in volume, and of course to Dicker. Dickering in essence means giving the buyer a break/deal on something, which cannot happen if a minimum price is set.

Perhaps I'm to old fashioned, but it is going to take more than flashy dealer ad campaigns to get me to buy something from someone different. Under RPM/MAP we may as well just settle for the first dealer that comes up in any online search, because the only thing we will be saving is time.

MAP is a guideline that generally is surrounding a standardized price. Most often dealers are allowed to offer coupons or have sales to lower the MAP temporarily. What has been happening lately is dealers going below MAP right out of the gate. If it was old product that would be one thing, but as cited many times in this thread they are low ball offering new blades. That immediately impacts perceived value. There are many examples in this thread of people getting 0770s for 130, or 0620cf for 180. as a result this thread has bloated to 7 pages in support of the lowered prices. great, you got a deal, now instead of having a cool new offering to check out, KAI has to deal with the dealers complaining they cant afford to compete at that price LONG TERM. remember,l when a dealer is authorized they have agreements with their distributors and manufacturers, MAP is usually in those terms. If they are enforcing MAP, that means the policy was already in place and dealers were breaking it.

im out on this thread too....it is not going to end well...all most people here want is a cheap knife....others are complaining in another thread about the same company producing cheap knives they will never buy....maybe the best part of this policy will be for KAI to trim out some of their most fickle customer base so they just have customers wanting a great product at a fair price they are willing to pay.
 
No, that's precisely what it needs now, and has always needed. There has been a long history of litigation in the US regarding pricing controls - whether to allow them and if so in which situations. The thinking on this has bounced back and forth maybe half a dozen times over the decades. The *only* thing that has been consistent is that it gets propelled in one direction or the other by....lawyers and judges. The history is a pretty interesting read actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resale_price_maintenance

One thing the above article confirms is that, if 100 years of legal battles in the Supreme Court have not settled this issue once and for all, we sure aren't going to do it here on a knife discussion forum

So you think we need more litigation for us to be able to figure out how much we should pay for a knife? Do we really need lawyers and judges to decide how much a product is worth? Come on....

The only people who should be involved with product pricing are those who make the product, those that sell the product, and those that buy the product.

If like you say a 100 years of litigation over this subject has not settled this issue, what exactly does that tell you?
 
KAI has to deal with the dealers complaining they cant afford to compete at that price LONG TERM.
If they cannot compete, then they go out of business. It is a literal waste of money to support failing, noncompetitive businesses that destroy wealth in their markets. They have to create their own value to draw in customers. You have to give customers what they want at the price they are willing to pay. Full stop. Nothing else. This is a competitive market, buyers set the price. Again, full stop. If you can't make it for that price, if you can't sell it for that price, then you deserve to go under. That is all. No customer on the planet is obligated to support your business model, they are only obligated to support themselves and what they value. The business serves the customer, always and every single time.

maybe the best part of this policy will be for KAI to trim out some of their most fickle customer base
If the best part of a policy is the way it reduces the number of paying customers, then shutter the factory, because it is a horrible policy that will negatively impact growth and reduce revenue in the long run. This isn't about how much revenue KAI generates per knife, they sell at a different price to different customers, obviously not dictated by MAP. Dealers pay dealer price, then sell at the price that makes them most competitive. If dealers lose any, any, ability to compete, then they start to shrink. Dealers are KAI's customers. Fewer dealers means fewer sales. So, the best part of the policy is shipping fewer knives to fewer dealers while not moving the product upscale so they can charge a higher per unit price at the wholesale level? Or maybe they do, and all of a sudden they can't reliably compete against CRK or Strider or Emerson, putting the ZT brand in a miasma of brand image and price strata. Where's the upside for this genius policy? Where do they get nothing but praise for doing the thing that has caused BM so much consternation from the exact same customer base? How was it smarter the second time around? What does KAI have in its positioning versus the black class and NSN'd BMs that makes this an easier move for them?
 
first its:
If they cannot compete, then they go out of business. It is a literal waste of money to support failing, noncompetitive businesses that destroy wealth in their markets. They have to create their own value to draw in customers.



then you say:
If dealers lose any, any, ability to compete, then they start to shrink. Dealers are KAI's customers. Fewer dealers means fewer sales.

so which is it, work with the dealers to help maintain the distribution base, or let them die and everyone can shop at walmart? You cant argue the point from both ends. You have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll pickup the ZTs that others dont want, win for me.
 
I'm not arguing it from both ends, it is a rather consistent point. How can you attempt obfuscation of something so open and basic? The sellers compete, those most efficient incur the lowest costs an move the most volume. Those less efficient fail to do so and fail in the end. There is little differentiation for these products, Elmax, M390, S30V, G10, carbon fiber, it's the same song and dance for materials. They are all knives. Price is a consideration when materials and function are the same. ZT competes with other brands, and dealers compete with each other while selling these brands. If ZT makes themselves less attractive compared to competitors due to price increase (a possibility, but not guaranteed), then why would dealers carry as many if that happens? Dealers looking for competitive advantage will want the best product mix. You have yet to articulate a way in which fixing the price of a ZT knife helps the sellers. How it helps the sellers who already know how to keep their costs low and generate a profit. The sellers who don't overextend and can manage their inventories. Since when did they need help in calculating their prices?
 
your grammatical prowess is masking your own misunderstanding. ZT is "Enforcing" MAP, meaning dealers already had MAP agreements in place and they were in breach. Do you not believe in accountability? If the dealer agreed to a set of rules for selling and marketing a product then they need to find ways within those rules to do business, or not be a dealer. Again, actually read my comments...they havent been told they cannot have sales or offer temporary discounts...the issue is advertised perminant pricing below MAP of newly released products.

You have yet to articulate a way in which fixing the price of a ZT knife helps the sellers. How it helps the sellers who already know how to keep their costs low and generate a profit. The sellers who don't overextend and can manage their inventories. Since when did they need help in calculating their prices?

Whats your point, why would i need to explain how this benefits the sellers?? Im not arguing for the dealers, Im pointing out the reasons why a manufacturer would set a pricepoint for their products to be sold. Stop trying to throw shade....excuse me....obfuscate the crux of my argument by trying to come at it from yet another aggle for which i have never attempted to defend.

You arent going to turn me, or am i going to turn you. best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.
 
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