Enforced ZT MAP, will you give Benchmade a second look?

[JarrodS]

It should be illegal because you're not able to buy the knives you want at the prices you're willing to pay?

Did I misunderstand you? I apologize if I did.

Yes, you misunderstood, and apparently misunderstand the issue many have with MAP. It's not about what I'm willing to pay, it's about what retailers are willing (but not allowed) to list them for. I.e. it destroys competition. We've had antitrust laws against this sort of manipulation for decades. Until recently, that is.

FYI, I've purchased 7 Benchmade knives since MAP enforcement. But I never once paid MAP.

 

[crom]

Looking forward to the next six months where any time a ZT is mentioned, for any reason, a bunch of whiners will chime in to tell us why they stopped buying them because they pulled a Benchmade

 

[StinkyTool]

Yes, you misunderstood, and apparently misunderstand the entire issue of MAP. It's not about what I'm willing to pay, it's about what retailers are willing (but not allowed) to list them for. I.e. it destroys competition. We've had antitrust laws against this sort of manipulation for decades. Until recently, that is.

No, I understand - I understand completely. I just didn't understand what you were saying. We could get into a debate on competition and anti-virus laws until the cows comes home, but it wouldn't do any good as evident by these identical thread topics popping up continually. It's impossible to have a civil debate via the Internet anyway.

Thanks for clarifying, though.

 

[StinkyTool]

Looking forward to the next six months where any time a ZT is mentioned, for any reason, a bunch of whiners will chime in to tell us why they stopped buying them because they pulled a Benchmade

Nailed it.

 

[RamZar]

Although mentioned several times before, the past few days in this thread and elsewhere, if you're looking to get a ZT below MAP pricing do it today before all the other dealers are forced to remove the "ADD TO CART FOR PRICE" which will give you a 30%-35% discount off MSRP instead of 20% going forward.

 

[RevDevil]

Tempting, but everything I want is out of stock....

 

[RamZar]

Tempting, but everything I want is out of stock....

Other than 0562, 0562CF, 0620 and 0620CF you can find most others.

 

[Redmasta]

Looking forward to the next six months where any time a ZT is mentioned, for any reason, a bunch of whiners will chime in to tell us why they stopped buying them because they pulled a Benchmade

Oh it will go on much longer that 6 months, the discussion will continue until everyone who was alive to see it turns to dust. They will sit in their rockers and tell the generations to come of the time that Benchmade and ZT bent everyone over and forced their MAP (RPM actually) on them, and how some gave in and took it while others fought.

My prediction is this resale price maintenance Benchmade and ZT are doing will eventually spread to all makers. In time we will know how this works for them and if it is ever deemed illegal by the FTC.

 

[Scurvy092]

Oh it will go on much longer that 6 months, the discussion will continue until everyone who was alive to see it turns to dust. They will sit in their rockers and tell the generations to come of the time that Benchmade and ZT bent everyone over and forced their MAP (RPM actually) on them, and how some gave in and took it while others fought.

My prediction is this resale price maintenance Benchmade and ZT are doing will eventually spread to all makers. In time we will know how this works for them and if it is ever deemed illegal by the FTC.

You realize this happens in the auto industry (which is almost infinitely bigger than the high end pocket knife industry).

Look at why in the past, the American car companies suffered in brand prestige and in resale value. The dealers heavily discounted their products, diluted the brand by selling a ton of cars to fleet services (think of that like blem sales) so the resale value tanked. When the resale value tanks, people assume that the cars must not be great quality. Honda and Subaru for example rarely ever allow dealers to discount their cars and never sell to fleets so their resale value remains high and the brands look strong.

That's why GM, Ford and Chrysler have recently tried reigning in discounts and fleet sales (GM is now making Fleet specific vehicles like the Captiva and Impala Classic) in order to help their resale values and the brand's prestige.


So when everyone in here purchased their last car (excluding the fact that I'm sure many people in here are still in highschool), did you go with a brand with a solid reputation and high resale value or did you go with a brand known for steep discounts and poor resale value.

I assume most of you went with a Jaguar or a Land Rover...

 

[jhawk66901]

I'm not defending Benchmade as I certainly was not happy about the their decision. But at least in their case they could make the excuse (which is probably all it was), that brick and mortar stores didn't have a fair chance against the big online companies because they were being undercut so much. It seems like their are quite a few more brick and mortars selling Benchmade than ZT so I'm not sure if that same reason (if any will ever be given) applies. I guess in Benchmade's case the enforcement may be somewhat effective for directing the sales. I've bought a few since enforcement and they were way under MAP at stores.

 

[Scurvy092]

I'm not defending Benchmade as I certainly was not happy about the their decision. But at least in their case they could make the excuse (which is probably all it was), that brick and mortar stores didn't have a fair chance against the big online companies because they were being undercut so much. It seems like their are quite a few more brick and mortars selling Benchmade than ZT so I'm not sure if that same reason (if any will ever be given) applies. I guess in Benchmade's case the enforcement may be somewhat effective for directing the sales. I've bought a few since enforcement and they were way under MAP at stores.

I will say that the Benchmade policy has SERIOUSLY put the balance back on the side of the B&M stores. The BM knives at gun shows are INSANELY cheap compared to the online price now. They run 'special gun show' pricing which is a lot harder for BM to find out about as opposed to just checking a website.

Last gun show, I had the opportunity to buy a BM 940-1 ($260+ online) for $200.

 

[flarp]

The ZT lineup still offers solid value at MAP. Sure, as a consumer, we generally want to pay less. I'm included in that mindset as well. At the steeper discounts some dealers were offering, the ZT's were phenomenal deals. At MAP, they are still good values.

For $240, you can get a ZT0562CF:
- Premium blade steel (M390)
- Premium handle materials (carbon fiber & titanium)
- New and licensed design from a big-name designer (Hinderer)
- Functional and decorative upgrades/extras (KVT, LBS, lockbar insert + internal over-travel protection, large ornamental pivot)
- Excellent fit & finish
- Lifetime warranty w/ free small parts replacement (pocket clips, screws, washers, etc.) and $30 blade replacement option
- Made in USA

That still seems like you're getting quite a bit for your money.

 

[jac_solar]

Oops, sorry.

 

[ElConquistador]

Higher prices make the knives I really want seem like a better value. I know it's still a big jump to go from.... ....say a 707 or a 940 to a Sebenza but the price difference makes it seem a little more doable. I'd rather have one Chris Reeve or Strider than two Benchmades.

As far as ZT, their antics here have so thoroughly turned me off that I won't be buying another at any price so their going to enforced MAP is a non issue.

 

[spketch]

You realize this happens in the auto industry (which is almost infinitely bigger than the high end pocket knife industry).

Look at why in the past, the American car companies suffered in brand prestige and in resale value. The dealers heavily discounted their products, diluted the brand by selling a ton of cars to fleet services (think of that like blem sales) so the resale value tanked. When the resale value tanks, people assume that the cars must not be great quality. Honda and Subaru for example rarely ever allow dealers to discount their cars and never sell to fleets so their resale value remains high and the brands look strong.

That's why GM, Ford and Chrysler have recently tried reigning in discounts and fleet sales (GM is now making Fleet specific vehicles like the Captiva and Impala Classic) in order to help their resale values and the brand's prestige.


So when everyone in here purchased their last car (excluding the fact that I'm sure many people in here are still in highschool), did you go with a brand with a solid reputation and high resale value or did you go with a brand known for steep discounts and poor resale value.

I assume most of you went with a Jaguar or a Land Rover...

I don't see how this applies to pocket knives, except maybe the very high end companies/models. These are just tools to most people. What I look for in a knife is high value from a reputable company, preferably one that supports the American economy. I don't care about prestige if I'm getting a well built tool in the materials I want.

My last car was a Toyota Yaris. I went with the most affordable option from a reputable company that had the features I wanted: great gas mileage and long term reliability. Resale value and prestige were not considerations.

 

[jhawk66901]

You realize this happens in the auto industry (which is almost infinitely bigger than the high end pocket knife industry).

Look at why in the past, the American car companies suffered in brand prestige and in resale value. The dealers heavily discounted their products, diluted the brand by selling a ton of cars to fleet services (think of that like blem sales) so the resale value tanked. When the resale value tanks, people assume that the cars must not be great quality. Honda and Subaru for example rarely ever allow dealers to discount their cars and never sell to fleets so their resale value remains high and the brands look strong.

That's why GM, Ford and Chrysler have recently tried reigning in discounts and fleet sales (GM is now making Fleet specific vehicles like the Captiva and Impala Classic) in order to help their resale values and the brand's prestige.


So when everyone in here purchased their last car (excluding the fact that I'm sure many people in here are still in highschool), did you go with a brand with a solid reputation and high resale value or did you go with a brand known for steep discounts and poor resale value.

I assume most of you went with a Jaguar or a Land Rover...

I have several Benchmades and some ZT. I guess one of the reasons I like Spyderco and have been buying more of their knives recently is that they run the spectrum from very low end price-wise to the higher end of production knives for price and quality. I will still buy Benchmade (at brick and mortar and the occasional gun show) and ZT but more of my money will go to Spyderco. For me, they are more bang for the buck and I like the variety; just a personal thing. I do like also though that the pricing seems to be very market driven without a lot of involvement from Spyderco on the pricing once the knives ship to the retailer. Spyderco sets the MSRP, sells to the retailer at whatever price, and allows the retailer to sell it at whatever profit margin works for the retailer. That may all be complete false conjecture on my part but it appears to hold when looking at various retail sites. I know it's nice just seeing the price without having to add an item to the cart. It also falls in line with what I was told at the factory store, which was that they don't care where you buy their knives, whether it is from the factory store, their biggest customer (the aforementioned river site), or a mom and pop shop. They just want to sell you a knife.

 

[Scurvy092]

I don't see how this applies to pocket knives, except maybe the very high end companies/models. These are just tools to most people. What I look for in a knife is high value from a reputable company, preferably one that supports the American economy. I don't care about prestige if I'm getting a well built tool in the materials I want.

My last car was a Toyota Yaris. I went with the most affordable option from a reputable company that had the features I wanted: great gas mileage and long term reliability. Resale value and prestige were not considerations.

Brand prestige purely in the sense of reputation which you do value.

 

[whp]

Looking forward to the next six months where any time a ZT is mentioned, for any reason, a bunch of whiners will chime in to tell us why they stopped buying them because they pulled a Benchmade

It s just that some of us are disappointed one of our favorite companies instituted a price policy that resulted in prices rising 35% with no accompanying increase in value. And in the process eliminated competition among its vendors. But capitalism will win out and people will vote with their wallets. Some of us whiners are just trying to help the company see the error of its ways. Meanwhile the less frugal of us will pay whatever they can , despite the price changes.

 

[whp]

I have several Benchmades and some ZT. I guess one of the reasons I like Spyderco and have been buying more of their knives recently is that they run the spectrum from very low end price-wise to the higher end of production knives for price and quality. I will still buy Benchmade (at brick and mortar and the occasional gun show) and ZT but more of my money will go to Spyderco. For me, they are more bang for the buck and I like the variety; just a personal thing. I do like also though that the pricing seems to be very market driven without a lot of involvement from Spyderco on the pricing once the knives ship to the retailer. Spyderco sets the MSRP, sells to the retailer at whatever price, and allows the retailer to sell it at whatever profit margin works for the retailer. That may all be complete false conjecture on my part but it appears to hold when looking at various retail sites. I know it's nice just seeing the price without having to add an item to the cart. It also falls in line with what I was told at the factory store, which was that they don't care where you buy their knives, whether it is from the factory store, their biggest customer (the aforementioned river site), or a mom and pop shop. They just want to sell you a knife.

Which is why most of my knife purchases over the couple of years have been from Spyderco.

 

[whp]

I have several Benchmades and some ZT. I guess one of the reasons I like Spyderco and have been buying more of their knives recently is that they run the spectrum from very low end price-wise to the higher end of production knives for price and quality. I will still buy Benchmade (at brick and mortar and the occasional gun show) and ZT but more of my money will go to Spyderco. For me, they are more bang for the buck and I like the variety; just a personal thing. I do like also though that the pricing seems to be very market driven without a lot of involvement from Spyderco on the pricing once the knives ship to the retailer. Spyderco sets the MSRP, sells to the retailer at whatever price, and allows the retailer to sell it at whatever profit margin works for the retailer. That may all be complete false conjecture on my part but it appears to hold when looking at various retail sites. I know it's nice just seeing the price without having to add an item to the cart. It also falls in line with what I was told at the factory store, which was that they don't care where you buy their knives, whether it is from the factory store, their biggest customer (the aforementioned river site), or a mom and pop shop. They just want to sell you a knife.

Which is why most of my knife purchases over the couple of years have been from Spyderco.