Fighting a big cat...

Being a dog trainer and lover I've studied the history of dogs and specifically the Bulldog.
The name should give you a hint of what it did,fought bulls.
Not only bulls,but Lions and Bears and most every other animal.
Pound for pound no animal can beat the right dog.
Dogs have been bred for combat since the first wolf pup was raised by and hunted with early man.
I don't want to sound like a dog fighter enthusiast as this is a politically incorrect topic but the book "The Complete history of fighting dogs" gives historic accounts of dogs in battle with other animals.
It is truly a history book and has been used in court and is in the liberty of congress.
 
Disagree,

Even a wolf (they are huge!)would finish the biggest worst dog in mere minutes in a 1 on 1 death match. I dont buy the any animal argument, pure BS. I trained dogs for years and the family has for decades, there is no match for large wild animals no matter what the breed or how tough. Dogs guarded livestock against wolves as a deterant not to destroy them. A large wild predator might back down but certainly not killed.

Lets not even get into bears and big cats.

Skam
 
about dogs, when you hunt puma the pack of dogs trees the cat, then you get close and shoot them in the lungs with a .22, that is not because they are easy to kill, it is because if you shoot them with a 44 mag they will get knocked off the tree and fall among the dogs and most likely kill a few before you can intervene. the .22 allows them to bleed internally so when they drop they are unconscious from shock and blood loss. you have not seen anything move as fast as a leopard or lion, and strike like lightning, the claws on each paw are like striking with 5 kerambits at a time, the cats sometimes like to grab their prey by the shoulders and then sink their rear claws into the preys belly and by extending their body they disembowl their prey.

alex
 
skammer said:
Disagree,

Even a wolf (they are huge!)would finish the biggest worst dog in mere minutes in a 1 on 1 death match. I dont buy the any animal argument, pure BS. I trained dogs for years and the family has for decades, there is no match for large wild animals no matter what the breed or how tough. Dogs guarded livestock against wolves as a deterant not to destroy them. A large wild predator might back down but certainly not killed.

Lets not even get into bears and big cats.

Skam
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You're wrong,wolves are curs and will quit very quickly.
Being a dog trainer does not make you a history expert and you do not know your history.
All wild animals are curs meaning they will quit or submit if they can so they don't get injured.
An injury in the wild means death by starvation.
Watch two bears or Lions fight.
It's over very quickly.
Usually a few seconds at most a minute or two.
Dog fights have lasted up to 4 hours.
Man bred the survival instinct out over thousands of years in fighting Bulldogs.
I'm not talking about any other breeds.
Wolves fight for dominance only.
They are no competition for a bulldog,it's been tried many times.

There's an old movie called the yearling that shows a real fight between a black bear and a small bulldog.
http://www.zippyvideos.com/5286810765852126/apbtvsblackbear/*jm2006
The bulldog won.
The bear ran when the Bulldog wouldn't quit.
Big cats do the same thing.
Monkeys,Baboons,Wolverines,badger,bear,lions,bulls,horses,mules, every manner of beast in the Colosseum and in Westminster Pit bulldogs fought and beat.
Not every time but enough that anyone that really knows what they're talking about knows that pound for pound nothing beats a bulldog.
 
I understand that Anatolian Shepherds have historically been used in Turkey to not only guard the flocks, but to actively hunt wolves and other predators that would terrorize said flocks. The Turks would outfit these dogs with impressive spiked steel collars, to prevent a neck wounding, then go hunting. These dogs can go upwards of 150-160 lbs., and are fiercely loyal. This dog, or an AB, would be my first 2 choices over any knife.
 
alco141 said:
about dogs, when you hunt puma the pack of dogs trees the cat, then you get close and shoot them in the lungs with a .22, that is not because they are easy to kill, it is because if you shoot them with a 44 mag they will get knocked off the tree and fall among the dogs and most likely kill a few before you can intervene. the .22 allows them to bleed internally so when they drop they are unconscious from shock and blood loss. you have not seen anything move as fast as a leopard or lion, and strike like lightning, the claws on each paw are like striking with 5 kerambits at a time, the cats sometimes like to grab their prey by the shoulders and then sink their rear claws into the preys belly and by extending their body they disembowl their prey.

alex
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A .22 cal. is definitely not the caliber of choice to shoot lions under any circumstance. In fact, many states require a centerfire cartridge. A wounded lion is not going to sit treed and wait to bleed to death. They may leave a tree and fight with the hounds or take off and start another pursuit. You want to stop them as quickly as possible.

GB
 
Have any of you had close encounters with a big cat?

If you are talking about an american Cougar, I was in Western Washington state a couple of years ago working and a semi hit a cow elk out on the county road.

After all the excitement was over, one of the guys said hey look, and there was a male Cougar half draggin half carrying that carcase away to the treeline. It was a full grown Cow, in early fall, so she probably ran 550 to 600 pounds. The Cougar was carrying that weight like my neighbors cat carries in a corn rat.

A full grown HOUSE cat, in serious pissed off mode, is going to shred you pretty good before you get a handle on it, multiply that times the size difference with a 200 pound healthy male Cougar? you want to fight that with a KNIFE? The Cat has 20 knives, sharpens them daily, and loves to practice using them.

I have seen two Tiger rugs up close, both animals shot by a Missionary in India during the 60's before they closed Assam. I carried the rugs upstairs along with 3 other guys helping. Just the head was as big around as my arms would go, the front claws were stickysharp, about 5 inches long, and about as thick as a railroad spike. That animal had killed at least 15 people before it was killed inside a hospital, where it had killed and was dragging off a pregnant woman.

sorry, talking about what knives for Cat defense is just beyond the realm as far as i am concerned
 
skammer said:
The cat wont be on my back forever
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This is true. The thing is how would you be once the cat leaves your back.

You sound confident like you fight them regularly.
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Fighting them regularly or, not doesn't really have to do with it. What does have to do with it is understanding the particularities, the strengths and weaknesses of each weapon. For instance, a javelin is a formidable weapon in the hands of someone who knows how to use it in medium to small distances but, is going to be pretty much useless in a body-to-body encounter where, let's say, a pikal blade will shine if one knows how to use it.

Return of the J.D. said:
Second interesting observation: I've been reading a book on cougar attacks, and I noticed about 3 old-time documented cases in which a person was attacked by a cougar and tried to defend himself with a hatchet or tomahawk. In all cases, the tomahawk defense was unsuccessful--I have never read any account of anybody successfully defending against a cougar attack with a hatchet; there are, however, a number of accounts of successful defenses with knives. My best analysis of this is that a hatchet cuts in an arc about three feet out from the user's chest; that arc is a strip of space about as wide as the hatchet's edge. Anything that doesn't intersect with that arc--or, more precisely, doesn't end up right in front of that arc as it's being created--is going to get a blunt impact from the handle, at worst. Now, cougars--like most other predators--attack straight in, and FAST. If the cougar is a little faster than your reflexes and anticipation (which is likely), your tomahawk blade is going to go through the air behind the cougar, and you're going to hit it with the handle and your fist (if you're lucky), about the time its teeth are around your neck. The details will vary, but you get the basic idea.

In contrast, if you've got more of a thrusting weapon, your target is a little more manageable: if you're a little too fast or slow, you're still likely to have sharp metal pointed in the right direction. I notice that the Masai, mentioned above, use spears and straight swords in their lion-fighting adventures; both of those seem as if they would work well whether one thrust them into an attacking animal, or merely held it pointed in the right direction while the animal came forward. This armchair theorizing is of course only what it is, but it seems to make sense of the limited data I have available from the experiences of others.
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In this post Return of the J.D. touches on a very significant issue: that of the angle of strike of a weapon. He is correct when he says:

"a hatchet cuts in an arc about three feet out from the user's chest; that arc is a strip of space about as wide as the hatchet's edge. Anything that doesn't intersect with that arc--or, more precisely, doesn't end up right in front of that arc as it's being created--is going to get a blunt impact from the handle, at worst."

Same thing is with the kerambit. I own what I think to be one of the best made kerambits. Can be devastating against humans. For the reasons that I have already mentioned though, I don't think I would choose this vs. a straight blade while in the outdoors.

In any event, if something works for someone, then he/she should use that.
 
cash2006 said:
Beautiful dog 1911!

Andros- I think you are right on. My Temperance is a terrific working knife, but might come up a little short.
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I agree with all that you've said here: Grappler1911's is a beautiful dog. BTW, I own a Dogo Argentino and, Grappler1911 take my word for it, Dogos are very tough dogs!

Regarding the Temperance, this is exactly how I see mine too.


If 6 inches were the limit, what might be the knife?
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I would say that it had a lot to do with the amount of money you can invest in a knife. For me the top choice would be a Busse Satin Jack Tac. I used to have two of those both with the Penetrator Tip but, another forumite bought one of them. The problem with this choice is that it is out of production and you can only find one from the secondary market. Then, I would say the Mini Mojo and the Mini Uncle Mojo from Swamp Rat are excellent choices. You can buy either one directly from Swamp Rat (www.ratknives.com). They go for $198.95 plus shipping and are very well made and dependable knives with the best warranty (like the Busse's) that exist out there. I own both and I recommend them highly!

If you can't go for this amount of money, then I would suggest you look at Scrap Yard knives and in particular for the Yard Hook or, the Yard Guard. Of the two, you can still buy directly from Scrap Yard knives only the Yard Hook. You are looking at $119.95 plus shipping.
Finally yet importantly, I would suggest any of the Ontario Knife Co.'s RAT7. It can be bought either made of 1095 steel or, D2 tool steel. The 1095 version is cheaper than the D2 version.

Of course, many posts have been written about the concern of the brittleness of D2. The post in which Cliff Stamp said something caused him to be banned from the Bladeforums.
One thing I can say here, from my limited experience with D2, is that it is very good at cutting things that require a toothy edge but not that tolerant with lateral pressures. However, any of the RAT7's that you may choose will be a very good knife for the purpose that we have initially discussed.

I hope I was of assistance.
 
skammer said:
Grap,

Show me proof any dog killed a grown wolf 1 on 1.

As mentioned Anatolian Shepherds are guard dogs and actually wear spiked collars to give it a chance on hunts and while protecting.

It is very romantic to believe a domesticated dog can outgun a full sized wolf but its near impossible if at all, sorry not buying it.

FOr more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolves#Interspecific_predatory_relationships

Skam
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Romantic?
Dog fighting has gone on for thousands of years.
You can bring any dog including wolves.
If wolves could beat bulldogs they would have been used more.
It was tried many times unsuccessfully.

Wolves are not fighters.
They are very very poor fighters.
Predation and fighting are two very different things.
As soon as a wolf loses the upper hand in a fight they quit.
This is how the wolf pack determines who is Alpha "Leader of the pack"
For thousands of years to the present, man killed the bulldogs that quit in a fight.
This has created a breed that will not quit even if losing.
It has also created a dog with tough skin and bones resistant to pain,heat and shock.
The bulldog fights to win and for the love of battle not for dominance.
A wolf is a pack hunter that uses threat display to intimidate other pack members to determine pack leadership.
Matched to weight the wolf is about as much trouble to a schooled game bulldog as a house cat.
You're not going to find proof online.
You're talking to the professor not the student.
Believe it or not.
 
Grappler1911 is correct.It's just not in a Wolf's genes to stay in a fight for the long haul.They are hard wired to survive.A good bulldog will have the grit and gameness to stay in it to the end.Actually a wolfe vs. a good bulldog would be a mismatch.
 
Its apples and oranges. one wolf in the wild is a rare thing, they run in packs, family groups, and they live and operate that way for a reason. Send a dog after a wolf in the wild and its not one on one, its one against 7 to 18, and the wolves will win.

Bull dogs were always used in groups when working herds. one alone can not get the ups on a fighting animal.

A big raccoon will kill most "trained fighting" dogs in the wild.

Big Cats are loners, they are killers of the highest order, Leopards will kill game to 600 pounds, alone and at night. Big lioness packs can pull down elephant, Rhino and water buffalo with difficulty, but they can do it.

A dog vs big Cat fight will end up with a dead dog. Happens all the time, will keep happening. The cat latches on with the fore claws and teeth and the rear claws rip the belly open. Go grab a farm cat by the neck and see if you can hold on with the back claws ripping your arms open. Thats a 8 pound cat. try it with a 80 or 160 pound cat.
 
Horse said:
Harry Wolhunter is the guy from South Africa who killed the lion that unhorsed him. His knife looked to me like a 6 inch boning knife. There was an article about this in an old knife digest- maybe from the late 1980's?
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The article was actually in Ken Warners knives annual, the issue was indeed in the 80's as you say. The knife was about 5 inches in the blade and was a standard butcher knife of Sheffield manufacture.

Wolhunter was a game ranger if I recall right, and he got a terrible mauling, but managed to kill the lion by stabbing it repeatedly in the neck.

Harry was one tough M.F'er.:eek:

There has been numerous accounts of mountain loin attacks on humans in the Vancouver area of Canada, and some sucsessfull defences put up with the common Buck knife.
 
Guntotin_fool said:
A big raccoon will kill most "trained fighting" dogs in the wild.

.
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I have no idea who told you this but the next time you see them slap the snot out of them for lying to you. I have been coon hunting for 30 years, a seasoned coonhound picks up a coon and the sounds coming from the dogs mouth sound like a man eating corn nuts, if there are two dogs they immediately grab either end and pul the coon into pieces. When the dog is through the coon is a limp dishrag with most of the bones in it's body broken, the dog looks up at you and smiles and says in doggy speak "that was fun, let's go get another."

Most of the people here are seriously underestimating the strength, courage and ferocity of trained working dogs.

This coon was let out of the cage and was no match for this 7 month old pup. Chris
Picture131.jpg
 
About 10 years ago the voters of California in their "wisdom", decided to eliminate Mountain Lion hunting. Within a few short years there were numerous lion attacks and several deaths in different parts of the state, so this is a very very real possibility for me!!! This seems to be more of a problem in foothill areas that border civilization (the places most frequented by day hikers, mountain bikers, and trail runners!), than it is deep back in the wilderness (there you have bears to deal with, but also more opportunity to carry a firearm!).

The largest knife that I can practically carry in a pair of hiking shorts is an 4" Emerson CQC-12 Comarade. These are "waved" and easily deployed, and I carry one in each pocket so if the cat had one of my arms pinned I could still get to the other one. The neck area is about the only place where you could hope to get in a cut that would result in enough blood loss to render the animal unconscious in any reasonable amount of time. Stabbing at the eyes would be a second choice, or get the blade between the ribs and go for a lung.

The best deterent is to never hike alone, and be sure others in your group are also properly armed and would be willing to come to eachother's defense in an emergency. Like any martial art, these techniques have to be practiced to develop the muscle memory necessary to act quickly and appropriately in an emergency!
 
Guntotin_fool said:
A dog vs big Cat fight will end up with a dead dog. Happens all the time, will keep happening. The cat latches on with the fore claws and teeth and the rear claws rip the belly open. Go grab a farm cat by the neck and see if you can hold on with the back claws ripping your arms open. Thats a 8 pound cat. try it with a 80 or 160 pound cat.
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Agreed 1 dog, more than one, and the cat is in trouble. Chris
 
Eric_425 said:
I don't know... I can't say I've ever tried it with a pistol and a knife, but I've done some bowhunting and rifle hunting. I know a rifle bullet is moving much faster with more energy than most pistols, but an arrowhead also cuts a much deeper and wider path than most knives. And animals go down a lot quicker with the bullet. Bullets don't just punch a little hole the size and shape of the bullet in the target, like a knife leaves a cut in the shape of the knife blade. Things kind of explode. I've opened up deer shot with both. With the arrowhead, it can leave a big hole you can fit several fingers through, all the way through the animal. A deep clean cut through the lungs, heart, etc. With a powerful rifle, there isn't a big hole in the heart and lungs. The heart and lungs just aren't there. It just looks like somebody poured black and red stew inside it. I know varminters shoot animals and the bodies literally explode into just a red mist.
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Handgun and rifle rounds are completely different. You don't get the permanent wound channel damage you mention until the bullets hits around 2500fps. Handgun rounds just don't have that kinda kick and the knife will in most likelihood do more damage.
 
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