Future of production knives

[Stelth]

I don't buy chinese knives.

 

[soc_monki]

Is anybody concerned that a decade or so from now, virtually all production knives will probably be made in China? Many U.S. knife makers have already moved their entire production lineup to China/overseas (e.g. Pena, Chaves, Cold Steel, etc.) and now folks like Microtech are dabbling more and more in China. The economics of manufacturing just so overwhelmingly favor doing it in China it might be impossible for CRK, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. continue to compete in the production space down the road... Is it all downhill from here?

The thing about Pena, Chaves, and sharp by design (Brian Nadeau) is that they are small shops, and only produce a handful of knives. The Chinese productions are just them getting someone with the infrastructure to make production runs of their knives. You can't really equate them with brands like spyderco, benchmade or kershaw/zt. China makes things according to how much someone is willing to pay. My SBD Evo Typhoon is very, very well done, and for $350 you'd be hard pressed to find an equivalent US made knife for that price. My Hinderers are great too, for a few hundred dollars more. And don't have cf.

Civivi/We makes very good knives. All my civivis are amazing, especially for the price. Makes me wonder how crkt stays in business charging over $100 for 4116 steel... Especially eyeing that new civivi conspirator.

American knife companies will be fine. Spyderco can't keep things in stock, Benchmade sells who knows how much, Hinderer and CRK sell like hotcakes, and Kershaw has been around a long time and while I'm not a fan of the newer ZT knives they are very popular.

Taiwan has very high quality too, and I love my Taichung spydies, and my Japanese spydercos. There's plenty of room for all, so I wouldn't worry.

 

[BTTLBRN]

Now, many of them are just Instafamous dudes who put together some drawings in CAD or wherever, and send 'em off to the Chinese along with a check, and get back a box full of knives they didn't turn so much as a single screw on. This is even happening in the Traditional world as well.

^ I have seen a lot of this myself as of late. Multiple kickstarter campaigns from YouTubers that have designs that are being made by QSP/Reate/Etc, interesting trend no question.

As for good ol' American manufacturing, I don't worry in the slightest. On a recent podcast, Tim Reeve stated that demand for his company's product is at an all-time high - he noted "Covid boredom" and people with money not being spent on other things as a possible reason for that. That is certainly true in my personal case, my ammo hoard hasn't been added to in awhile which has led to my "play money" being used on knives and other things.

 

[Ron Sabbagh]

I have so many knives, I'll be ok. I don't tend to buy knives from China*, and find it irritating that I essentially have to research every brand I see for sale on the Exchange, because 90% of them are made by We or Reate, and so get crossed off my interest list. Ya know, I remember back when knifemakers were people who made stuff. Now, many of them are just Instafamous dudes who put together some drawings in CAD or wherever, and send 'em off to the Chinese along with a check, and get back a box full of knives they didn't turn so much as a single screw on. This is even happening in the Traditional world as well.

However, it is what it is. Enough people today don't care where their knives come from that neither those manufacturers, nor the makers (and their Instagram fans) who've outsourced their designs to China will miss my knife dollars.

The good news for me is that there are still companies here in the US and elsewhere (like Italy or Switzerland) making knives I enjoy. It'll be fine.

* Save it, thanks.

^^^^^^
This

 

[strategy9]

Any American brand worth caring about hasn't moved production to China, and any Chinese knives worth caring about aren't made under an American brand (with a few exceptions).
Eliminating the middle men from your market is always best for everyone.

Buck

 

[dryflytrout]

There are enough people that want US made knives that at least a few companies will be around for a long time. I think the way they raise prices, the problem for companies like Spyderco and Benchmade is only Bill Gates will be able to afford one in a decade.

 

[Vince000]

^ I have seen a lot of this myself as of late. Multiple kickstarter campaigns from YouTubers that have designs that are being made by QSP/Reate/Etc, interesting trend no question.

As for good ol' American manufacturing, I don't worry in the slightest. On a recent podcast, Tim Reeve stated that demand for his company's product is at an all-time high - he noted "Covid boredom" and people with money not being spent on other things as a possible reason for that. That is certainly true in my personal case, my ammo hoard hasn't been added to in awhile which has led to my "play money" being used on knives and other things.

That's because of supply/demand imbalances in today's economy - once things normalize in say 5-10 years, then I worry that the knife industry will just turn into the electronics industry i.e. designed in the U.S., but all made overseas...

 

[strategy9]

One of the key strengths of capitalism is the power that it gives to the consumers to vote with their dollar bills every time they make a purchase. Everytime someone buys Chinese made products, they are voting with their money that their business model is acceptable.

Without delving too far into the political spectrum, some things are inevitable and unavoidable in today's current market, as we almost all have something made in China in our homes, in our cars, in our closets, at our jobs, but personally I try to avoid Chinese made products where I can, because I don't want to continually support their business structure. Now I do have some made in China knives; a Kizer I got on sale for a work beater, a little Ruger, some Rough Riders, a $20 Kershaw: but considering Chinese production (for foreign based companies), is meant to drive down costs, when I do buy made in China, I am solely looking for a deal on a cheap production knife, (or anything for that matter).
If and when I am looking to pay a premium, for a premium knife, KNOWING that their production workers on the floor are not being awarded any of that premium, I am more then happy to pay a bit more for an equivalent offering made somewhere in the (more) free parts world. I don't care how much I like the design, or even the designer, I simply will not pay a premium price for a product that doesn't pay their employees a premium wage, just so some designer can cash out, and ESPECIALLY try to avoid if it's a Chinese brand charging a premium, doubling down on their profit margins on the backs of their workers.
I won't even buy another Buck knife after they shut down a small US dealer, who contracted to have some truly awesome sprint runs made of their knives, and a former BF supporter, (SKblades ), but yet they continue to produce more and more new products each year with their iconic US branded anvil logo associated with a "made in China" stamp. I just won't do it, because I vote with every dollar I spend on which business models and which products I support, and any knife with the "made in China" stamp on it, but a price tag north of $50, is simply completely off my radar these days when there are just so many other offerings out there that I can spend $100 or even $150 on, (and for an iconic US brand to have that stamp, feels like it is just a slap in the face). I will still suggest some of the better quality ones to someone who is on a tight budget, I get it, I've been there, but today I'd rather know that I'm actually supporting a company that is simply utilizing much better business practices in regards to it's employees; wages, conditions, treatment. And if I'm already going to spend $200, I'd rather pony up these days and spend the 3, if I'm already going to spend $350, on something as frivolous as "another knife", then at that point what's another $150 to support a better overall business model front end to back? Because every dollar spent by me, is a vote by me on what I find acceptable in the world.
A local wing shop owner was caught berating a customer with racial slurs, I choose to no longer spend money at that establishment regardless of how good the wings were. I avoid Walmart like the plague, even though I can one stop shop, I'd rather go to the local food mart or farmers market, the locally franchised sporting goods store, the hardware store, and the locally owned gas station chain and support them at a slightly higher cost, then to support their business. If money is "that tight", that pinching pennies is that important, than I simply need to not buy another knife. If I'm not struggling though, I like to spread some of that love, even at a higher cost, and support businesses who's practices I agree with.

So while some companies may fall, 'tis the nature of business 101, others will succeed, and while I do worry a little bit about US manufacturing in general, I have faith the US knife manufacturing sector will survive...

 

[madcap_magician]

Reate makes really excellent knives in terms of quality. I dislike that they're in the PRC, but I mean, they're still a pretty small business, and I don't mind buying their knives on occasion. They're pretty enthusiastic about knives, and they buy a lot of Western materials and seem pretty dedicated to making the best knives they can. A lot of American small custom makers are using them for midtechs, and we can carp about that if we want, but the fact is that there are only a few American shops that will do what Reate does in terms of doing extremely high-quality OEM knife manufacturing with customizable runs in relatively small-ish batches (for production knives), and most of those don't have work availability because they've already got all the projects they can make.

I do think we are entering a great place for knife collecting. Instagram has had its negative impacts on the community as well, but we've got more makers making more things now than ever, and they have the ability to get their knives made by all these small manufacturing shops. I think high-end midtechs are definitely going to continue to be a big thing, and that's really great. Makers can't possibly keep up with demand, and this allows more people to have access to their designs at more affordable price points.

 

[3D Anvil]

Worth mentioning that we do have a couple US manufacturers who have come on the scene in just the past few years -- TRM and Tactile Knife Co. Both making relatively small batches in the $200-$400 range, and both of them are selling knives as fast as they can make them.

 

[strategy9]

The future is robotics. Robots can do many tasks from simple machine work to accounting better, faster, and much cheaper than humans. For almost any trade today there exists a computerized machine that can do it better and cheaper. Even cars can be made to drive themselves. It's just a fact.

The big questions I have is if no one has a job who is going to buy all of this manufactured stuff. How will the rich 2 percent control the masses if they don't have jobs to keep them in line.

It's a good question maybe someone knows the answer but I can't figure it out.

Someone still has to manufacture parts for, build, program, operate, and maintain the robots...

Until we reach "skynet", at which point it'll be totally different struggle

 

[madcap_magician]

Worth mentioning that we do have a couple US manufacturers who have come on the scene in just the past few years -- TRM and Tactile Knife Co. Both making relatively small batches in the $200-$400 range, and both of them are selling knives as fast as they can make them.

I agree, the high-end small manufacturers in the U.S. aren't losing any business to, say, Reate in China or CKF in Russia... the demand is so high that all the good manufacturers are selling whatever they can make.

 

[sharp_edge]

No - I am not concerned at all. It is true that a few Chinese manufacturers are producing high quality knives but we should not ignore two things: the number of these Chinese makers is very limited and they are pricing their products poorly. Take REATE as an example. Yes - its knives are generally priced lower than their American counterparts, but not significantly lower so that many more people will buy them. I think strategically it makes sense to set the price at (nearly) the same lever as American ones only when the products of a foreign country **as a whole** are regarded high quality.

Japanese kitchen knives are among the most expensive but people still buy them because their reputation as a whole has well established. Chinese high quality knives are far from there yet.

I'd be concerned if knives produced in China are made at the RHK/CRK level but priced at no more than $200, and again I think they should be priced so because their production cost is MUCH lower, well, unless the American retailers/dealers of those Chinese knives are aiming at a HUGE margin of benefits.

 

[deovolens]

I buy mostly custom knives made by my 'friends". From the non customs he USA( CRK )is my favorite.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Is anybody concerned that a decade or so from now, virtually all production knives will probably be made in China? Many U.S. knife makers have already moved their entire production lineup to China/overseas (e.g. Pena, Chaves, Cold Steel, etc.) and now folks like Microtech are dabbling more and more in China. The economics of manufacturing just so overwhelmingly favor doing it in China it might be impossible for CRK, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. continue to compete in the production space down the road... Is it all downhill from here?

Pena and Chaves haven't "moved" anything to China. Their customs have always been made in the US and their production knives have always been made in China.

No. Taiwan, Japan, Italy, and other places that aren't China will still be around.

Spyderco is my favorite maker. I don't think they will cease Japan or US production anytime soon. I think their business model is ideal. China makes the budget Byrd line. Japan does the next tier (Delica, Endura, etc), and higher priced Spydercos are US made.

Spartan Blades branched out into Taiwan to make a more budget friendly knife. My Astor in CTS XHP is fantastic.

People will continue to support CRK, Medford, White River, TRM, etc and US manufacturers. I think the average adult understands a US based manufacturer is going to be more expensive than an overseas made knife.

Spyderco makes a ton of Spyderco-branded knives in China, too. The entire "Value Folders" line (Tenacious, etc.) is made there.

With the new Chinese brands over last couple years like WE civiviviv relate etc. that charge premium prices, WHY are people paying the same price on those as a US made knife??? That’s what I don’t understand.

This is not a political question, it’s economic question. When you know the China made knife cost a fourth to make than the US made knife.

China made knife has its place but don’t pay US made prices for them!

Generally speaking, Chinese knives (from reputable brands) at a given price point are offering more than their US-made competitors. They're either better made or have better materials (often both). The ZT 0562Ti, a US-made titanium framelock with 20CV blade, retails for $300 (and it's a model that's been around for ages). WE makes the Minax, a titanium framelock flipper with 20CV blade designed by Ferrum Forge, which retails for $260 (just under 15%) less. In my experience, WE makes a better product than ZT, so you're getting equivalent material, better workmanship, and a slightly lower price. A Golden-made Para3 is around $160 now; the same money can get you a WE Miscreant, a Brad Zinker designed 3" titanium framelock with 20CV; so same money, but better quality and better materials.

 

[c7m2p3]

Pena and Chaves haven't "moved" anything to China. Their customs have always been made in the US and their production knives have always been made in China.


Spyderco makes a ton of Spyderco-branded knives in China, too. The entire "Value Folders" line (Tenacious, etc.) is made there.


Generally speaking, Chinese knives (from reputable brands) at a given price point are offering more than their US-made competitors. They're either better made or have better materials (often both). The ZT 0562Ti, a US-made titanium framelock with 20CV blade, retails for $300 (and it's a model that's been around for ages). WE makes the Minax, a titanium framelock flipper with 20CV blade designed by Ferrum Forge, which retails for $260 (just under 15%) less. In my experience, WE makes a better product than ZT, so you're getting equivalent material, better workmanship, and a slightly lower price. A Golden-made Para3 is around $160 now; the same money can get you a WE Miscreant, a Brad Zinker designed 3" titanium framelock with 20CV; so same money, but better quality and better materials.

This is the crux of the matter. In the last 10-15 years the gear and knife community has been hugely focused (for some good reasons and some bad) on materials as a metric for value and right now you can get expensive materials (20cv, S110V, Carbon Fiber, Ti etc) for far less than you can from domestic manufacturers. That doesn't mean that all production knives made in the United States are going to go away. There is always going to be something to be said for design. Some people just love the feel, function, and look of something like a para 3 or a hinderer or a CRK etc and that design is how US made companies are going to stay competitive because if we are looking at simple cost, overseas will always win that its simple math.

 

[afishhunter]

Not worried.
The Chinese manufacturers (and all other offshore manufacturers, regardless of where they are located) can produce knives (and anything else) to whatever quality the contracting company specifies.
Obviously, the price point the knife will retail for affects what materials are used. The higher priced models may have more exotic materials ... a higher grade of Ti or aluminum, for example, than the lower priced models.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

As a general contractor, I buy more tools a year than I would like. When I was just a hand on the job site, my tools lasted me for years. Somewhere along the line over the last 10 years, we employers supply many of the hand tools to our gallant work force so they can leave them out in the rain, drop them off scaffolds, steal them, break them when they are made at me, and sometimes... use them as designed. So I buy a lot of tools. Tools I don't want to buy.

Back in '72 when I started in the trades, ALL hand tools were made in USA. And on all Union jobs, the tools had to be certified to be 100% made in USA with 100% USA made parts. Over the years, it was discovered that some tool manufacturers used "offshore" parts and that was finally accepted. Then tools started to come in from "offshore" that were pretty good tools at a little better price, so they gained acceptance. It was a ongoing, slow process, but the "offshore" guys gained market share and acceptance by manufacturing a good product at a good price. Economics is just as simple as "they don't pay crap" and "they use slaves". In my business, if the quality isn't there to keep your expensive workers going at it, the tools won't sell. The math is easy; if you have two guys that cost you $80 an hour, you can't have them stop for a couple of hours (or more) so you can replace a faulty tool.

So as time marched on, so did the acceptance of tools not made in the USA. Please look it up before responding, and read the packaging carefully on tools. Tools makers like DeWalt, Milwaukee, etc., all proudly have the Amercian flag on some of their packaging as they have some of their tools (DeWalt says some saws, some drills, some recip saws, some impact drivers, mostly the models for the big box stores) made in USA. More accurately, they are proudly "made" in USA from globally sourced parts. I watched a video supplied to the building community supplied by DeWalt, and they tout they have opened 7 new plants to "make" their tools here in the USA. Like I suspect many production knife makers do in the USA, they are screwing parts and pieces together from bins of the same from whomever makes them the cheapest.

I know the local tool rep for Ridgid tools (Home Depot, not the plumber's tools of which some are actually are made here) and his company, TTI, overseas the manufacture of many tool brands and operate the actual manufacture of same. He has worked for a few companies as a rep, and he told me that he knows of only a couple of companies that make their own tools sourced from USA made parts. A good article here on how all major hand tool companies are now owned by offshore conglomerates: https://www.protoolreviews.com/milwaukee-vs-dewalt/

It's an older article and other acquisitions have been made and manufacturing processes have changed, but it is easy to see the gist by scrolling down the page. It doesn't mention all the companies that were ground up in the process, or companies that were purchased then quietly dissolved.

I see the knife industry following this model. Just a few years ago mentioning "Chinese" caused and immediate 200 post blast that usually ended when a moderator shut down the thread. There were claims of un-American activities, support of Communism, support of child slavery, nefarious plots to undermine the USA economy through the knife world, and all manner of other xenophobic accusations were on block/copy/print to get on the thread as soon as possible to prove you were a real American. Lots of chest pounding.

Look how much is changed... I NEVER would have believed it. Threads like "show us you favorite Chinese knives" and "which is the best Chinese maker" are common. Open, public discussions of favorite Chinese knives used to be kind of acceptable if they could attach an American maker's name to it, but now even that isn't necessary. People post here giddy with excitement over receipt of their new Chinese offering and gush about the quality and others jump in immediately to claim the same, and offer their own stories of how much they like Chinese brands. The about face is still a little weird for me, but here we are. I think the transformation will continue on with American makers that already buy bearings, screws, standoffs, G10, ferrules, FRN, etc, and off shore milling/machining bits going on until someone starts (and they may already!) start buying blade stampings, liner stampings, foreign made metals (already!) etc.

Like DeWalt, Milwaukee, etc., they will proudly brag that they are "made in the USA" but that will mean something completely different than it does to someone of my age when Made in USA meant just that.

Putting the soapbox up...

While there are some companies that have parts made overseas for assembly in the US (mainly automatics due to import laws), I don't think it's economically feasible for most manufacturers to import anything other than hardware, which you can bring over in huge amounts at relatively low cost and with low storage requirements.

No - I am not concerned at all. It is true that a few Chinese manufacturers are producing high quality knives but we should not ignore two things: the number of these Chinese makers is very limited and they are pricing their products poorly. Take REATE as an example. Yes - its knives are generally priced lower than their American counterparts, but not significantly lower so that many more people will buy them. I think strategically it makes sense to set the price at (nearly) the same lever as American ones only when the products of a foreign country **as a whole** are regarded high quality.

Japanese kitchen knives are among the most expensive but people still buy them because their reputation as a whole has well established. Chinese high quality knives are far from there yet.

I'd be concerned if knives produced in China are made at the RHK/CRK level but priced at no more than $200, and again I think they should be priced so because their production cost is MUCH lower, well, unless the American retailers/dealers of those Chinese knives are aiming at a HUGE margin of benefits.

CRK is the only US production company making titanium-framed knives with quality that really competes with Reate. You have to be very generous to put a standard production XM-18 in the same category. ProTech makes some absurdly nice collectible-grade knives, but they're customs, so not exactly comparable. Currently, the cheapest PJ Small Sebenza is $375, which goes up to $450 for a PJ Large. A Reate-made Pena front flipper retails for $274, so a solid $100 less than a small PJ Sebenza. The Pena has micarta or carbon overlays, too; a comparable Small Micarta Sebenza would run $475, approaching double the Pena. And that's ignoring the significant difference between CRK's S45VN and the Pena's M390. My most expensive Reate-made knife is a Damasteel Sharpbydesign Evo Typhoon ($560). A Large Sebenza with micarta and Nichols damascus runs $750. That's 35% higher price and you're getting a steel that looks pretty, but falls well short performance-wise to Damasteel's PM alloys. At each tier, the Reate costs less and offers better materials.

 

[snuffle]

I worry that the knife industry will just turn into the electronics industry i.e. designed in the U.S., but all made overseas

I worry less about this with knives.

The startup capex for a small knife shop capable of enough output to feed a human is easily < $10K, even less to start. You can't build a modern electronics manufacturer operated by one or a few people today, and you'll pay at a minimum three more zeros to get up and running.

Basically, any fool with an itch to scratch can figure out how to start making knives, if they want to work at it. So we'll keep getting domestic knives as long as people are interested in them. iPhones are a very different story.

(And interestingly, as automation has advanced, more electronics manufacturers are moving production back onshore, because the cost of few human workers you need is now a far smaller percentage of the overall operating expense.)

 

[sharp_edge]

While there are some companies that have parts made overseas for assembly in the US (mainly automatics due to import laws), I don't think it's economically feasible for most manufacturers to import anything other than hardware, which you can bring over in huge amounts at relatively low cost and with low storage requirements.


CRK is the only US production company making titanium-framed knives with quality that really competes with Reate. You have to be very generous to put a standard production XM-18 in the same category. ProTech makes some absurdly nice collectible-grade knives, but they're customs, so not exactly comparable. Currently, the cheapest PJ Small Sebenza is $375, which goes up to $450 for a PJ Large. A Reate-made Pena front flipper retails for $274, so a solid $100 less than a small PJ Sebenza. The Pena has micarta or carbon overlays, too; a comparable Small Micarta Sebenza would run $475, approaching double the Pena. And that's ignoring the significant difference between CRK's S45VN and the Pena's M390. My most expensive Reate-made knife is a Damasteel Sharpbydesign Evo Typhoon ($560). A Large Sebenza with micarta and Nichols damascus runs $750. That's 35% higher price and you're getting a steel that looks pretty, but falls well short performance-wise to Damasteel's PM alloys. At each tier, the Reate costs less and offers better materials.

I agree with you that in general Reate offers better materials and costs less. But my point is that these are not significantly enough to swing many people. At this price point, people are not just looking at materials and built quality; the fame and history of the brand can be equally important if not more.

I had/have multiples of both CRK and Hinderer, and I still put them in the same category based on their quality, material, fit & finish, ergonomics, price, and pride of ownership. I understand it is a personal opinion (RHK and CRK being in the same category) that not everyone agrees to.