GEC...Please Make More Patterns Available To Us in 440C...yea or nea ?

[Mayonardo]

There is a never-ending flood of stainless knives on the market, from domestic and foreign makers. I applaud GEC for adhering to the traditional materials and patterns, especially with 1095. Focus on that and very high build quality is GEC’s hallmark and I think significantly changing that would be a mistake. I also suspect the number of GEC fans that clamor for a switch to stainless is very small compared to those who want and appreciate carbon blades.

Then there would be the question of which stainless: M390, VG10, BD1N, CRUWEAR. All expensive and more difficult to sharpen.

No thanks.

 

[Pinemoon]

I may be wrong, but I think GEC primarily focuses on carbon because stainless is hard on their tooling for whatever reason, which is 100 years old. I read that here once.

I doubt they do 95% of their runs in 1095 because of customer feedback.
If that were true, Case would be making most of their patterns in CV.

Don't misread this.
I love GEC and have purchased several. I hope they continue for a long time.
I think offering stainless would likely increase their popularity, not diminish it. Notice I said "offering" not replacing (the1095).

Supposedly, GEC has purchased CNC equipment. Maybe this is for two reasons.
1) it'll be a more efficient and exacting way to cut parts.
2) it'll allow more stainless offerings.

The best of both worlds.

 

[GE Jr]

This is extent of my stainless GEC knife collection. I wouldn't mind adding to it.

 

[Danke42]

I suspect they don't make a lot of stainless knives because even though people say they want a stainless knife when a run comes out it's not popular.

If you can imagine they see all the various social media posts about stainless so they put out on and 99.9% of the response is something like all ready got one or don't like this detail. Then the release that same model in carbon and the response is solid.

They need to sell knives to stay in business. If something doesn't sell despite buzz it stays on the back burner.

All I can suggest is persuading someone like DLT to get a run made in their signature. And then when it's made making sure they sell out briskly.

 

[gaj999]

Then there would be the question of which stainless: M390, VG10, BD1N, CRUWEAR. All expensive and more difficult to sharpen.

There are stainless steels that are equivalent to 1095. Any of the razor blade steels, such as AEBL, would work just fine. Fine grained and easy to sharpen, they'd be easier on old machinery. Stainless doesn't mean an M390 class steel any more than carbon means K390 ...

 

[Shurke]

I also suspect the number of GEC fans that clamor for a switch to stainless is very small compared to those who want and appreciate carbon blades.

I can't imagine anyone wants GEC to switch exclusively to stainless. That would just be silly. But would there really be any issue if--let's say just for argument's sake--75% of each production run was carbon, while 25% was done in stainless?

There is a never-ending flood of stainless knives on the market, from domestic and foreign makers.

Sure. But how many of those measure up to GEC's build quality? And how many manufacturers are making the range of unusual patterns that are in GEC's wheelhouse? I would be ecstatic if you could point me to the stainless equivalent of a wharncliffe Pemberton, a Churchill, or the Easy-Pocket Congress that's in production right now.

 

[black mamba]

There are stainless steels that are equivalent to 1095. Any of the razor blade steels, such as AEBL, would work just fine.

I've often wondered why AEB-L or 13c26 isn't used for pocket knives; they seem like the perfect combination of toughness, edge holding and corrosion resistance, especially at 60-62 HRc.

 

[Danke42]

I can't imagine anyone wants GEC to switch exclusively to stainless. That would just be silly. But would there really be any issue if--let's say just for argument's sake--75% of each production run was carbon, while 25% was done in stainless?



Sure. But how many of those measure up to GEC's build quality? And how many manufacturers are making the range of unusual patterns that are in GEC's wheelhouse? I would be ecstatic if you could point me to the stainless equivalent of a wharncliffe Pemberton, a Churchill, or the Easy-Pocket Congress that's in production right now.

Doing a seventy five / twenty five split would do horrible things to the price. You can't use the same tooling, the same processes, you have to split and separate all the materials and isolate them. It would be far easier to do a run as 100% stainless steel. But for most who want a nice stainless steel folder then Victorinox has that locked down. And again, if they make a Wharncliffe Pemberton 9 out of 10 will say they're waiting on a spear.

I understand completely that for some users in a humid or salty area the nice carbon steel slipjoint is a nightmare. But that's such a small niche compared to the other transitional fans who buy for the carbon steel and the walk and talk and the slabs and the patter that it's an ice skating uphill situation.

 

[Shurke]

Doing a seventy five / twenty five split would do horrible things to the price. You can't use the same tooling, the same processes, you have to split and separate all the materials and isolate them. It would be far easier to do a run as 100% stainless steel.

A number of manufacturers have run a pattern in multiple kinds of steel. GEC frequently did so themselves in their early years. So it's not quite the impossibility you make it out to be. But I'll concede that it would be far easier to do a run 100% in one kind of steel. In that case why not run at least one pattern a year in stainless? They sure didn't have any trouble selling the stainless 99s they ran a few years ago.

I wasn't so much trying to lay out a feasible business plan for GEC as I was trying to make the point that it doesn't have to be an either/or type situation.

And again, if they make a Wharncliffe Pemberton 9 out of 10 will say they're waiting on a spear.

The same way 17 out of 20 said they were waiting on a spear when GEC released the carbon Wharncliffe Pembertons last year?

I understand completely that for some users in a humid or salty area the nice carbon steel slipjoint is a nightmare. But that's such a small niche compared to the other transitional fans who buy for the carbon steel and the walk and talk and the slabs and the patter that it's an ice skating uphill situation.

Is it really a small niche though? Case, whose product is more similar to GEC's than Victorinox's, runs a lot of stainless and doesn't seem to lack for buyers.

I'm not saying GEC should try to be more like Case. All I'm saying is there's room in the market for more stainless from GEC, and it wouldn't diminish their carbon offerings at all.

 

[Murdamook]

There is a never-ending flood of stainless knives on the market, from domestic and foreign makers. I applaud GEC for adhering to the traditional materials and patterns, especially with 1095. Focus on that and very high build quality is GEC’s hallmark and I think significantly changing that would be a mistake. I also suspect the number of GEC fans that clamor for a switch to stainless is very small compared to those who want and appreciate carbon blades.

Then there would be the question of which stainless: M390, VG10, BD1N, CRUWEAR. All expensive and more difficult to sharpen.

No thanks.

This is kind of an odd statement considering GEC already uses 440C in their Great Eastern line. If people were going the prattle on about more expensive stainless steels then they probably already would have. The customer base for GEC is not focused on steel quality in a traditional pattern. They want a solid work steel that is generally easy to sharpen; this is true of both stainless and carbon variants. Also, no one is "clamoring for a switch to stainless". The OP is simply asking for more availability. Considering they already produce a stainless offering, it stands to reason that OP is simply requesting more of what is already offered. Finally, stainless, while not considered to be as traditional, has been used in cutlery for over 100 years. It's not exactly new.

 

[t.willy]

Yea all the way!!! ✌

 

[gaj999]

I've often wondered why AEB-L or 13c26 isn't used for pocket knives; they seem like the perfect combination of toughness, edge holding and corrosion resistance, especially at 60-62 HRc.

I know that before they switched to 14c28, Kershaw made a lot of their knives in 13c26. At quite low prices. I've read that Buck switched from 440C to 420HC because it could be fine blanked and because grinding it is quicker and easier on equipment than 440C. The lower carbide content that makes those steels easy to grind or sharpen gives them the ability to take a finer edge, because big carbides leave the edge toothy. The other side of the coin is that the low carbide content means that the edge doesn't last as long cutting abrasive media. A decent heat treat helps that. I like your suggestion of 60-62. That would be sweet. Personally, I love howling sharp edges and am willing to do somewhat frequent touch ups, so as long as the edge-holding is reasonable, I'm in.

 

[Danke42]

A number of manufacturers have run a pattern in multiple kinds of steel. GEC frequently did so themselves in their early years. So it's not quite the impossibility you make it out to be. But I'll concede that it would be far easier to do a run 100% in one kind of steel. In that case why not run at least one pattern a year in stainless? They sure didn't have any trouble selling the stainless 99s they ran a few years ago.

I wasn't so much trying to lay out a feasible business plan for GEC as I was trying to make the point that it doesn't have to be an either/or type situation.



The same way 17 out of 20 said they were waiting on a spear when GEC released the carbon Wharncliffe Pembertons last year?



Is it really a small niche though? Case, whose product is more similar to GEC's than Victorinox's, runs a lot of stainless and doesn't seem to lack for buyers.

I'm not saying GEC should try to be more like Case. All I'm saying is there's room in the market for more stainless from GEC, and it wouldn't diminish their carbon offerings at all.

Well like I said. I suspect the best chance of something like this happening is that if one of the folks who commissions SFOs commits to a stainless steel run.

 

[Mayonardo]

Years ago in California near where I worked there was a great restaurant that was always busy. Good food, reasonable prices. Then it sold to a family that had different ideas about the food and prices. It was closed within a year.

Great Eastern Cutlery has a good, sustainable business model, producing generally less than the market could bear. What changes and costs, for what benefit would result in producing more stainless steel models? If fewer carbon models were offered in order to make more stainless, what effect would this have on their customer base? What effect and costs would that have internally for Great Eastern Cutlery?

These, of course, are questions that only Great Eastern Cutlery can answer. Personally, I think their current business model and philosophy is working just fine.

 

[PirateSeulb]

While I have a preference for 440C over 420HC if GEC did a HT that was as good as Buck's on 420HC I would be happy with 420HC on some GEC patterns. There are plenty of stainless steels that would be easy for them to run on their equipment and can be made to be on par with the rest of GEC's quality and standards.

I like the idea of a 75/25 split but it wouldn't need to be 75/25 split per pattern just in terms of their whole years run totals it would be limited to wholly different patterns from what they are putting out in 1095 during that year. Maybe even during a year watch for some of the most popular patterns or patterns with significant requests for stainless and put them on the next year potential schedule whittling down the list the close things get to having to solidify their schedule. I think the split would even still be good at 80/20 since there is clearly a strong following that are very satisfied with the carbon steels.

 

[black mamba]

So far I would have to say that the best steel I've encountered in traditional knives has been the M390 from lionSteel. It far surpasses the previous "best" stainless in my experience, which was the ATS-34 used by S&M. The M390 seems to take a finer edge and touches up more easily than ATS-34. I'm not sure how hard each one is run, but I think I've seen 59-60 printed as the range for both. LionSteel's traditional offerings have run about $40-$50 more than comparable GECs, which is perfectly justified.

I would love to see GEC add something like Case's Bose Collaborations: premium steel in a premium package, assembled by their best cutlers, at a premium price. I'm not a business man, but I think such an offering would sell out easily at around the $300 price point, and should be profitable. After all, many of their regular releases sell for that and more, within weeks or months of their original release. A pattern #81 or #82 stockman in M390 with premium covers done to their absolute best quality is a very pleasant dream for me. Hopefully, some day it may become a reality.

 

[Chui]

- agreed............and agreed

Despite having had all mostly carbon bladed knives as a kid, I shy away from them now, much preferring the 'staybrite' of stainless steel.

I really enjoy having bought the BladeForums 2019 knife - it's a fine build and lovely to fondle by the computer...........will I carry and use it though, I'm not sure.

More like this from GEC in stainless..? You bet, for sure - do bears...........

Get the feeling that lionSTEEL and Viper are at the beginning of a journey - these lill M390 beauties could be made more interesting imho with other models too, but there's a pricepoint focus and manufacturing process to be juggled, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'll be watching closely

 

[Murdamook]

Years ago in California near where I worked there was a great restaurant that was always busy. Good food, reasonable prices. Then it sold to a family that had different ideas about the food and prices. It was closed within a year.

Great Eastern Cutlery has a good, sustainable business model, producing generally less than the market could bear. What changes and costs, for what benefit would result in producing more stainless steel models? If fewer carbon models were offered in order to make more stainless, what effect would this have on their customer base? What effect and costs would that have internally for Great Eastern Cutlery?

These, of course, are questions that only Great Eastern Cutlery can answer. Personally, I think their current business model and philosophy is working just fine.

Yes, yes. You have some folksy anecdotes. No one is asking GEC to change their business model entirely, simply to produce some more stainless specimens. No one would shy away from buying a GEC simply because it’s stainless. People buy the knives for the functionality and the beauty. Based on the fact that I am rarely able to buy a GEC branded knife and mostly have to turn to Tidioute or Northfield, I’m assuming their stainless specimens sell out just as rapidly as anything in carbon. As stated, stainless is traditional. It appeals to a broader range that operate in areas like the south, and south west. It’s odd that you’re stumping so hard for GEC to deny requests. There’s enough pages on this discussion to suggest they’d have at least a few customers for a stainless product.

I love 1095 but lately I have had some desire for a stainless GEC because I get tired of oiling my knife daily during the summer to avoid the sweat-caused rust that comes outside of a slip sheath.

 

[Railsplitter]

So far I would have to say that the best steel I've encountered in traditional knives has been the M390 from lionSteel. It far surpasses the previous "best" stainless in my experience, which was the ATS-34 used by S&M. The M390 seems to take a finer edge and touches up more easily than ATS-34. I'm not sure how hard each one is run, but I think I've seen 59-60 printed as the range for both. LionSteel's traditional offerings have run about $40-$50 more than comparable GECs, which is perfectly justified.

I would love to see GEC add something like Case's Bose Collaborations: premium steel in a premium package, assembled by their best cutlers, at a premium price. I'm not a business man, but I think such an offering would sell out easily at around the $300 price point, and should be profitable. After all, many of their regular releases sell for that and more, within weeks or months of their original release. A pattern #81 or #82 stockman in M390 with premium covers done to their absolute best quality is a very pleasant dream for me. Hopefully, some day it may become a reality.

I really, really like this idea.

 

[Mayonardo]

Already this has shifted to the properties of various stainless steels. Four or five candidates have been mentioned. Heat treatments, hardness, toothy edges vrs smooth, and how many models Great Eastern Cutlery “should” produce. I consider this to be more about Great Eastern Cutlery’s focus and direction for the company and their main customer base which appears to be mostly collectors, judging from what I see here on the forum, and secondarily, users. Many fall kind of in between, collecting many, using a few.

Being primarily a user (have no safe queens) I have much more interest in the traditional carbon steel. Yes, I know stainless came into limited use around WWI, but in my mind, historically, it is not really traditional. Some will differ. I don’t care about knowing the Rockwell numbers, whether it takes a toothy edge or smooth, how long it holds an edge or sharpening angles, bevels and micro-bevels. I had my fill of that sink hole on the Spyderco forum. When I buy a Great Eastern Cutlery knife I do so because it will be a quality hand-built pocket knife that I can use as a basic pocket knife, that harkens back to the early days of American cutlery. Carbon steel works just fine for a pocket knife and has for a few centuries. It is easy to sharpen using whatever may be to hand at the time - ceramic coaster, bottom of a coffee cup, etc.

If I want a traditional pattern with stainless blades I could always buy a Case or a Buck for example but I’m not going to get the quality I expect from Great Eastern Cutlery knives unless I am willing to pay for one of their actual Bose collaborations at three times the price of one Great Eastern Cutlery knife, which I am not.

That’s my opinion and I still think the business impacts to GEC of catering to a stainless market segment have not been addressed. Certainly my interest in Great Eastern Cutlery would wane if they shifted production to a higher percentage of stainless at the expense of carbon blades.