GEC...Please Make More Patterns Available To Us in 440C...yea or nea ?

[Mayonardo]

Yes, yes. You have some folksy anecdotes. No one is asking GEC to change their business model entirely, simply to produce some more stainless specimens.

Not really “folksy” but more of an example. I spent fifteen years with a major IT company rescuing corporations from just that scenario. I understand what can happen.

We don’t know what impact your suggestions would have on Great Eastern Cutlery. It’s all assumptions based on no evidence at this point.

Seems from the locale of many posters here that affection for carbon steel is not based on those living in the south and southwest.

And, why would your distaste for caring for your knife require Great Eastern Cutlery to produce more stainless models?

 

[GE Jr]

From GEC's website, "About GEC" tab, "About Our Brands" page:

GEC
With our two other brands, “NORTHFIELD UN-X-LD and TIDIOUTE CUTLERY”, our emphasis is on making knives much like those made during the golden age of pocket knives, the early 1900’s. They are made using mostly very traditional handle materials with blades made from 1095 carbon steel, quite often referred to as “your grand dads steel”. When properly heat treated and ground, 1095 carbon steel will produce a very tough blade of high polish that will easily take and hold an extremely keen edge. But it will always have one drawback. It will stain and rust. That is not a problem for many but to satisfy the need for a knife that will not stain and rust we have our Great Eastern Cutlery line of knives with blades and springs made of stainless steel. This brand, also made in classic pocket knife designs and of exceptional craftsmanship, has blades of 440C stainless Steel. It was not until the 1950’s when stainless steel started catching on with pocket knife manufacturers and consumers. 440C stainless was one of the first stainless blade steels designed for the cutlery market. It is still being used and is still one of the very best stainless cutlery steels. It attains a very high hardness when heat treated. With it’s blend of alloys that make it exceptionally tough, it can be brought to an edge easier that tool steels and can be mirror polished as good as any, and will not rust. We try to keep our Great Eastern Cutlery knives as All American as possible by using American cattle bone, American elk antlers and American hardwood for handle materials. They are easily recognizable with the Great Eastern Cutlery acorn shield.

 

[JD Bear]

Not everyone works in an office or lives in a moderate climate. I really like GEC and have quite a few, however I only carry them half the year. I work in a hot warehouse environment and in the summer, when I'm not working I'm outside. Carbon doesn't really do it for me and I think there are a lot of us that feel that way. I may not want to carry a bottle of 3-in-one in my back pocket just because I want to carry a nice slip joint.

 

[gaj999]

I have both carbon and stainless. All are users. Carbon only gets carried when I'm fairly sure that I can keep them dry. As to discussing various steels and properties, my purpose was to point out that there are stainless steels far easier on old equipment than 440C that make good knife blades. Given that GEC can quickly sell every knife they make now, there's no point in adding complexity to their process to broaden their appeal. If we get another recession and knife sales slow, it might make business sense to do that.

 

[Chui]

I have both carbon and stainless. All are users. Carbon only gets carried when I'm fairly sure that I can keep them dry. As to discussing various steels and properties, my purpose was to point out that there are stainless steels far easier on old equipment than 440C that make good knife blades. Given that GEC can quickly sell every knife they make now, there's no point in adding complexity to their process to broaden their appeal. If we get another recession and knife sales slow, it might make business sense to do that.

- does simply changing the steel do this...?

Would suggest the percentage of (current production) carbon bladed folders in UK/EU is far less than stainless.

There must surely be a stainless product that has as simple and/or similar an HT process as their current carbon blades.

Yes, with the correct HT, 440C (as they already use) is very good indeed and would float my boat every time over carbon.

But, as you say, if they sell every knife - why fix it if it ain't broke

 

[Bigfattyt]

I have and enjoy a double handful of GEC made knives in carbon. I am absolutely supportive of more knives being made in 440C!

I bought a handful of Queen and S&M to get the D2, and the Ats34. Would much rather have bought more GEC in 440C

 

[Pinemoon]

I would love to see GEC add something like Case's Bose Collaborations: premium steel in a premium package, assembled by their best cutlers, at a premium price. I'm not a business man, but I think such an offering would sell out easily at around the $300 price point, and should be profitable. After all, many of their regular releases sell for that and more, within weeks or months of their original release. A pattern #81 or #82 stockman in M390 with premium covers done to their absolute best quality is a very pleasant dream for me. Hopefully, some day it may become a reality.

Yes, a great idea. Even something a bit less "high-end" like the Buck Custom Shop would be fantastic to see GEC develop.

 

[gaj999]

- does simply changing the steel do this...?

The short answer is yes. Heat treat is the biggest difference, but machining will be different, as will the related surface finishing. Then there are the supply line issues of ordering, stocking, and tracking two different steels. So costs would go up and volume would go down. Other than that, it's a free lunch.

 

[Chui]

The short answer is yes. Heat treat is the biggest difference, but machining will be different, as will the related surface finishing. Then there are the supply line issues of ordering, stocking, and tracking two different steels. So costs would go up and volume would go down. Other than that, it's a free lunch.

- thank you. I know there are a lot of stainless steels out there with complex/involved heat treatment processes from my chats with Des Horn, but was hoping there may be some simpler ones more in line with their standard carbon steel.......perhaps not..!

 

[bonky]

I suspect they don't make a lot of stainless knives because even though people say they want a stainless knife when a run comes out it's not popular.

If you can imagine they see all the various social media posts about stainless so they put out on and 99.9% of the response is something like all ready got one or don't like this detail. Then the release that same model in carbon and the response is solid.

They need to sell knives to stay in business. If something doesn't sell despite buzz it stays on the back burner.

All I can suggest is persuading someone like DLT to get a run made in their signature. And then when it's made making sure they sell out briskly.

It's been a long time ago, but I recall Mike @knifeswapper mentioning something along those lines. Even though many people request more GEC 440c, when it's produced it just doesn't sell as well as 1095.

Fwiw, I'm a huge fan of their 440c, and I would like to see more of it. I do understand why it might not happen, though.

 

[Murdamook]

Not really “folksy” but more of an example. I spent fifteen years with a major IT company rescuing corporations from just that scenario. I understand what can happen.

We don’t know what impact your suggestions would have on Great Eastern Cutlery. It’s all assumptions based on no evidence at this point.

Seems from the locale of many posters here that affection for carbon steel is not based on those living in the south and southwest.

And, why would your distaste for caring for your knife require Great Eastern Cutlery to produce more stainless models?

This is a joke, right? You recognize the reason for innovation and change is specifically that, correct? I don’t have a “distaste for caring for [my] knife”, what I do have is a distaste for rust. If I forget to oil my blade at any point in a week and I carry it all week, I’ll see rust spots. Next, no one is requiring anyone to do anything. The OP made a simple post imploring then to consider it. You can’t really believe half the things you’ve posted, can you? You seem to miss the point with every reply.

Have you been paying attention? There’s a poster on this same page that says they carry their carbon blades for half the year. If GEC made more models in stainless, perhaps he would be willing to buy more product. Likewise, you paying attention to the locale of collectors and their willingness to purchase carbon steel is short sighted. It’s not zero-sum. I love 1095 and the character it assumes. I would still buy carbon blades if GEC made more stainless offerings; I would just buy both. Liking stainless doesn’t mean you dislike carbon.

Your anecdotes assume that GEC is going to make some massive overhaul to produce 50 more pieces per batch in stainless steel. They aren’t changing their entire business model. Stop doomsaying.

 

[Chief]

GEC 1095 folders currently outnumber GEC 440C folders on the big auction site over 100 to 1. Stainless GECs are getting rarer all the time, doesn't sound unpopular, more like unavailable.

I use my pocketknife on food. Food has moisture. Moisture rusts 1095. Acidic food makes it worse. GEC makes a great knife with 440C, wish they used it all the time.

 

[Markeologist]

I fall into the "collecting many, using a few" category...actually using a carbon bladed Beer Scout everyday....I love the patina...though I hate the fight against rust. Of my 25 or so...maybe 28, GEC knives, only two are stainless (see above someplace). Stainless knives just don't need the attention that carbon versions do...you can ride 'em hard and put away wet....thus my current dream knife is a bone handled stainless Rope/Navy knife with jigging like Mr. CC's original Rope Knife WITH a stainless crown lifter....a bring it to the beach knife.

Now there is talk here of GEC and their archaic machinery and as well as their business model BUT GEC recently bought new CNC machines from what I understand so they are not just relying on their refurbished antiquated machinery AND they are producing knives in much higher numbers than previously. As such, we can't be viewing GEC as the company we knew just two years ago...they have already modernized and increased their production accordingly. Nobody seems to be suggesting that stainless replace carbon...just that GEC make a few more for us that want them.

 

[Mayonardo]

This is a joke, right?

This is a joke, right?

Have you been paying attention?

They aren’t changing their entire business model. Stop doomsaying.

Sorry to have gotten you upset. Ad hominems do not a rational argument make. Let me summarize.

I prefer 1095 Great Eastern Cutlery knives over stainless steel for reasons previously stated.

Any significant change in production will affect any business model, processes, resources and market in often in unpredictable ways.

 

[JTB_5]

GEC 1095 folders currently outnumber GEC 440C folders on the big auction site over 100 to 1. Stainless GECs are getting rarer all the time, doesn't sound unpopular, more like unavailable.

I use my pocketknife on food. Food has moisture. Moisture rusts 1095. Acidic food makes it worse. GEC makes a great knife with 440C, wish they used it all the time.

That chestnut 15 is my favorite of the stainless 15s. They don't come up for sale often either (stainless 15s are pretty rare birds on the secondary, although I've seen a couple of tortoise shell acrylics in the last 6 months).

 

[gaj999]

... BUT GEC recently bought new CNC machines from what I understand ...

Those may have been bought to ease a production bottleneck not related to blades ...

 

[Mayonardo]

There are many assumptions here about what Great Eastern Cutlery can and should do. To borrow a phrase from Salter, “…like confused shots fired in the dark.”

 

[Danke42]

Well if we're going down this road now they should use LC200N as their stainless choice. It's a peak stainless steel and very easy to sharpen by hand so very much like a good carbon steel. The folks who want stainless will be happy and the folks who want an easy to sharpen steel will also be happy.

I don't sit in a temperature controlled office myself and the weather here will have over a 40c variation over the year along with a lot of moisture; kind of a temperate rain forest. No issues with carbon steels on my end of things but I do like a wide palette of different materials.

 

[Markeologist]

Those may have been bought to ease a production bottleneck not related to blades ...

Not following here...I state that GEC reportedly bought CNC machines and that they "modernized" which resulted, I believe, in increased production...isn't increasing production evidence that they addressed a bottleneck??? My point was that their business model has already changed, they modernized to some degree and have increased production. Heck, I think the lack of hand written tube tops is evidence of the changes already being incorporated at GEC. The "business model" which some don't want to change has already changed...that bus left the station.

On the business model issue...GEC has made stainless knives for years as part of their 4-knife brand approach: Farm and Field being the Ford/Chevy, Tidioute being the Mercury/Buick, and Northfield being the Lincoln/Cadillac with GEC being a parallel brand to suit other needs (think Corvette...yes, Corvette is not a separate make but it holds a unique place in GMs line up... a high end vehicle in their otherwise non-luxury Chevrolet brand). Producing a relatively small number of fixed blades and stainless knives has apparently not adversely affected the growth of the company. With their increased production capabilities, is it too much to ask that they produce a few more in stainless?

 

[Murdamook]

Sorry to have gotten you upset. Ad hominems do not a rational argument make. Let me summarize.

I prefer 1095 Great Eastern Cutlery knives over stainless steel for reasons previously stated.

Any significant change in production will affect any business model, processes, resources and market in often in unpredictable ways.

Not a single thing I said was an ad hominem. If you’re going to cite logical fallacies, at least understand the fallacy. To be clear, your entire previous post was completely passive aggressive and now you throw up your hands as though you’re shocked by my reply. You have yet to actually refute one of my points. You quote me and repeat pointless truisms about business and risk.

Based on all available evidence, GEC stainless models sell very well. There’s no evidence to suggest pushing out a few more specimens in stainless would sink the ship. Based on the speed of sales at most retailers, the market actually suggests they should make a few less OD Micarta examples and perhaps make a few more in stainless.