GEC...Please Make More Patterns Available To Us in 440C...yea or nea ?

[VANCE]

i like a knife to show its been used......if i wanted it to be pretty i would keep it out of rotation


**look at my avatar.....MAXIMUS does not understand ...stainless

 

[sitflyer]

i like a knife to show its been used......if i wanted it to be pretty i would keep it out of rotation


**look at my avatar.....MAXIMUS does not understand ...stainless

Good one!

 

[rma100]

I think I understand where Mr. Andrews' concern is coming from. Unless GEC were to increase manufacturing capacity, then to add more SS offerings they would have to reduce the number of 1095 knives they made, thereby reducing the number of good 1095 knives in the market. So as long as it is a zero sum game, any "win" for the 440C fans is a relative loss for the 1095 fans.

That wasn't obvious from the actual text of his posts, but now they make perfect sense to me and I understand exactly why he is opposed to it. Sorry if my earlier question to you seemed like some form of attack, but I didn't understand what your reasoning was and was truly hoping to learn from you why it would seem to be a bad idea.

As a dealer you have much more visibility into their manufacturing capacity and backlog, so it was probably obvious to you but it took me a while to figure it out. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I'd still like to see more 440C options but I no longer think you're crazy.

I never said I was opposed to anything. I said that I believe,
in my opinion, that Carbon Steel was more traditional for the the type of knives GEC makes. And that my own PERSONAL PREFERENCE was for Carbon Steel. I never said that I am opposed to anything. I never said they should not make Stainless Steel Blades on they're knives.

 

[aarya]

To throw a wrench in the works.. I wish they'd start using what many call the stainless equivalent to 1095. That is, AEB-L or 13c26.

 

[nphelps4130]

To throw a wrench in the works.. I wish they'd start using what many call the stainless equivalent to 1095. That is, AEB-L or 13c26.

Yes! We have a winner! I would really like to see GEC and others use AEB-L.

 

[sitflyer]

To throw a wrench in the works.. I wish they'd start using what many call the stainless equivalent to 1095. That is, AEB-L or 13c26.

Yes! We have a winner! I would really like to see GEC and others use AEB-L.

Thanks, but this is not the direction that I want this thread to go...GEC already uses 440C steel in it's production schedule, this thread is for discussing if people would like to see more offerings in this steel...and this steel only.

Steel type threads can be emotionally charged and I knew this going into this thread. I would like to say Thank You to everyone for such a civil discussion of what can be an emotional topic. This is just for amusement and entertainment...

 

[Old Boy]

Oh yes, please GEC, give me all your wonderful Northfield knives in stainless steel blades!

Since more than 80 years we know, how to make a good stainless steel for high quality knives, i don't understand, why in the USA nearly all "boys" love that ugly patina (for me its corrosion and nothing more) on the nice blades. Have you ever enjoyed your apple without the bad taste of a carbon blade?

Nearly all of my knives, i bought during the last 50 years, have stainless blades (many of them 440C) and i never had a problem in cutting anything my knives had to cut. And my "Golden Delicious", my "Jazz" or the "Granny Smith" are really delicious, if i cut the slices with a stainless knife!

440C is a wonderful material for high quality blades, if the maker knows what he has to do. And with the modern "sharp makers" etc. it is absolute no problem, to keep the blades "hair popping" sharp. So why patina, why the bad taste and why not a knife, what allways looks like new?

So i repeat: Please GEC, give me all your wonderful Northfield knives in stainless 440C steel! (As an addition to 1095 carbon steel.)


PS
2 weeks ago, i ordered my 4. GEC knife online! What do you think? OK, it's an #62 EasyOpen STAINLESS!

And now i have to wait for another 2 or 3 weeks, until my new baby arrives in Germany and i can enjoy more delicious "Delicious"

 

[bonky]

I recall a well-known GE dealer soliciting opinions on an SFO he was considering. At some point in the discussion, 440c was brought up as an option by one of the potential customers. The dealer's response was that he didn't want to use it.

When asked why (I'm paraphrasing his response, to my best recollection) he stated something along the lines that although many people requested 440c, in his experience most GE knives made from 440c stayed in inventory while those made from 1095 sold.

I personally like both 440c and 1095. I would like to see more 440c available, but I also understand that the consumer drives the market

 

[jc57]

...When asked why (I'm paraphrasing his response, to my best recollection) he stated something along the lines that although many people requested 440c, in his experience most GE knives made from 440c stayed in inventory while those made from 1095 sold...

That might be due to the fact that the selections in 440c are limited. I was looking through a couple of our BF vendors web sites at the 440c offerings, and none of them especially appealed to me. The only handle choices were elk, wood, and one bone pattern (Amber), and none of them were in the patterns I was looking for (Boy's knives, Maverick). I prefer bone handles, and the GEC rendition of amber bone is to me less attractive than some of their other bone options.

My selection process is usually, in order of priority: pattern, handle type, price, steel. I don't shop based on steel first, pattern second, and there are certain handle types that I just don't prefer, especially if they add a lot to the price.

A good experiment would be to take one of the very successful and popular patterns, and offer it in both 440C and 1095 with the same handle choices and see which ones sold the best. I guess there's no need to do that if you sell completely out of the 1095 run. So pretend that there is a demand for 100 knives in 1095 and 30 in 440C of a particular run. If you can only manufacture 90, then you might as well make all 1095 since you're going to disappoint 40 customers anyway. But if you have a capacity to make 130 knives, and you make them all in 1095, then there will be 30 unsold knives and 30 missed sales.

Not knowing the actual demand or inventory turnover, I can't really judge whether it would be a good decision or not. Maybe they could try a pre-order run of specific popular patterns in 440C to see how many people would actually pony up the money first before making them, like we do with the forum knives.

 

[2Dead]

Obviously, we talk as customers, so we see things from our point of view. It would be very nice to hear the company's opinion here, but most likely we won't. Either way, although we can only speculate on their reasons, GEC's market strategy is quite easy to see. And (unfortunately) it's not moving towards more 440C knives, I guess.
My first GEC was a 440C #25, and I think they do a great job on it...and wish for more.
I can believe that producing more knives in 440C would mean producing less knives in 1095. Would that mean reducing their sales? If this subforum is a decent sample of their audience, I think not. It's not my call to make, of course; I'm just stating my own personal opinion based on what I read here. Even when GEC came out with their F&F line, it was the same: more knives in O1 and micarta meant less knives in 1095 and bone. Was it a good choice? Look around to see how many F&F knives are currently available, and it will be very easy to say that yes, it was a good choice: stag/bone lovers still got what they wanted, and so did micarta/O1 fans.
Again, I know I just have to accept the company's strategy, and buy less GEC knives, as other members here. Every company makes choices, and their choices mixed with the audience response determine success or failure. Yet, I don't think it's really fair to present GEC's market strategy as paladin of tradition for producing only a small percentage of their knives in 440C. They do a great job for traditional cutlery, and produce awesome knives, but offering more patterns in 440C wouldn't affect that, and at the same time it would widen a bit their audience, especially considering how good they work on 440C.
Also, we have to face another serious problem on stainless GEC knives...Trand buys half of them

Fausto

Hey, I only bought 2 #62s... :grumpy:

Handle materials do need to be considered. I believe GEC tries to use American handle materials (mostly) for the GEC knives. Ie, American Elk, American Cherry, American Walnut... etc. I think using some more interesting grained American woods would help. Cherry rides fine in the pocket but visually is a little boring. I do like the walnut. The Birds Eye Maple in the #62s is pretty interesting. Since the 440c knives don't seem to be as popular as 1095, GEC has to be careful in bone colors and jigging. The amber bone on the #62 is also nice but a year later, you can still easily find #48s in amber bone still available. Their Light and Dark Chestnut on the #68 is a good example of attractive jigging and color they should be using imho.

I think they should to do a run of #15 (single and 2 blade jacks) in 440c to really gauge interest. But they have to also use attractive and appropriate handles Don't make a boy's knife with pink bone handles (as an example) then be surprised it doesn't sell well. There are still 440c knives from 2010 and earlier (I know one dealer with at least 1 stained green tea #73 still in stock and those were from 2007.) I do think a modern boy's knife with swedged/long pulls, all stainless construction with some canvas micarta will sell really well (please do put the shield in though, I just think it looks better). Maybe blue jean micarta...

This has been better than I had imagined it would go, and I do think that GEC must at least monitor this forum to some degree.

As to increased 440C production impacting overall flow of product, I wouldn't even guess on this having zero information, but if this were true i would probably not be infavor.
As a consumer seeing models already produced and available in this configuration, I can only wonder why certain patterns are offered and others not. Why a Toothpick and not a Powderhorn for example. The Furtaker Muscrat posted earlier definitely is on my watch list now though!
This has been fun and informative so far, in my mind at least...

If you're referring to the wormy chestnut, that is one interesting American wood with some good history and may not be around for much longer. I'm actually surprised those are still available as they only made 18 of those and I don't believe they've used that wood before or since.

 

[Stelth]

Excellent points have been made regarding handle materials and stainless pairings. I would have bought the #12 by now but it was only available in a tan bone that I found unappealing. Other models I liked were only available in elk horn; another material I would not buy. So anyone who says 440c doesn't sell well needs to consider that it may be handle material that caused the knife not to sell.

 

[kamagong]

Since more than 80 years we know, how to make a good stainless steel for high quality knives, i don't understand, why in the USA nearly all "boys" love that ugly patina (for me its corrosion and nothing more) on the nice blades. Have you ever enjoyed your apple without the bad taste of a carbon blade?

Not everyone is sensitive to the taste carbon steel leaves behind. In any case that taste goes away once the patina stabilizes.

So why patina, why the bad taste and why not a knife, what allways looks like new?

Because some of us don't accept your premise that a stainless knife always looks new. I have a lovely knife with mammoth ivory covers and a CPM154 blade. It has stainless steel bolsters and liners. It doesn't see hard use as it is used as my "gentleman's knife." Despite that, this knife has has picked up scratches and dings on the stainless furniture. Liners, bolsters, shield -- they all show wear. So does the mammoth ivory, which is harder that most natural handle materials. Stainless steel and mammoth ivory are not immune to the marks of usage; brass, nickel silver, stag, wood, and bone don't stand a chance.

- Christian

 

[jazub]

Excellent points have been made regarding handle materials and stainless pairings. I would have bought the #12 by now but it was only available in a tan bone that I found unappealing. Other models I liked were only available in elk horn; another material I would not buy. So anyone who says 440c doesn't sell well needs to consider that it may be handle material that caused the knife not to sell.

Agreed, Stelth. This is exactly where I am coming from. It is easy to create a self-fulfilling prophecy where something will not sell well. Pairing a desirable steel with an undesirable handle scale material is one way to do it.

Here's an idea: lets see the 81 frame with a clip point stockman setup, 440C, and copperhead bone handle scales... presto! Sweetest knife of the year! It's as easy as saying "floccinaucinihilipilification." Oh, wait, bad example...

 

[thedaver8]

I believe GEC tries to use American handle materials (mostly) for the GEC knives. Ie, American Elk, American Cherry, American Walnut... etc. I think using some more interesting grained American woods would help.

I'd love to see Redwood or even Oak added to the list.

 

[blademan 13]

As I see it, choice is normally a good thing as it allows people to simply buy what they like. While I don't currently own any GEC stainless, I sure would like 1 or 2. Preferably in the pattern/covers I desire. It would be nice to throw one in your pocket when you go on vacation and not have to worry about maintenance issues until you get home. My Champlin #85 and Pony Jack were ready for some TLC yesterday.

 

[quattromori]

Stainless knives don't always look new, nor they should
Back to GEC knives, I think it's not easy to evaluate 440C sales without considering the patterns chosen, and the scales options.
Let's be honest; some GEC patterns have sold out real fast (Charlie can teach us a thing or two ) while others haven't, even in 1095. Steel isn't the only factor to determine if a knife sells well or not. I do believe, for example, that a short run of #15 or #66 jacks with some nice handle material (wood or bone or whatever) would sell out quickly even in 440C. Not so much a golden acrylic lady leg in 440C. (I'm just making examples).
Anyway, we will probably have to wait and see what GEC comes out with.
I still think they could improve their sales with more 440C knives (in popular patterns with nice handle choices), but obviously it's not my call.

Fausto

Fausto

 

[Jack Black]

Steel type threads can be emotionally charged

 

[akadave2]

I prefer 1095 for my traditionals...however if I were going to seek a stainless traditional, I would want 154cm and I would pay the premium for it gladly. 440C is good if the heat tread is done well....440a is out and that seems to be popular with some of the traditional makers

 

[black mamba]

Right on, Trand, the Dark Chestnut #68 was GREAT looking and didn't last long, either. More patterns in that handle should sell well in 440C.

 

[Will Power]

Certainly!

The Acorn/Squirrel etch knives I have/had have all pleased me a lot. The Conductor Burnt Stag and White Owl Light Tan Bone all get a great deal of use. Obviously I like these patterns but I'm with The Old Boy on carbon and food. Just don't like it at all, nor did one of my friend's pet rabbit! He was a great lover of apple, would climb up on you to get a piece but if I sliced him a bit with carbon, no no,he'd only take the stainless cut apples. I use my knives to prepare snacks a lot (my gardening knives don't get used for this and they're usually carbon) so it's one reason why French knives dominate my snack duties. Sandvik is perfectly OK and it gets used a lot by Euro makers.

Jeff's idea of a higher line GEC makes a lot of sense, you could have all stainless liners or nickel silver. For sure GEC SHOULD expand its handle options in stainless, they're far too pedestrian! Once they've gone to the trouble and extra effort needed to stamp out the stainless blades why not show more adventure with handles? They've got them in stock after all. I'm not very keen on American Elk, their Zebrawood is rather bland compared to Queen's, the Cherry I had and traded was OK it but looked like Ikea kitchen tables....
When they've got some knockout bone they really ought to offer more of it with stainless, think of Primitive Bone, Frontier Bone, Calico Bone, Autumn Gold, Garnet etc etc such interesting colours and jigging would I'm sure be very popular with buyers, time for Barehead stainless as well.

My current dream would be a 73 Barehead in stainless Primitive Bone and an 85 stainless single blade Calico Bone. Yes

Regards to all, Will