Glue Wars - the battlefield is set

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I like JB Weld and the Shafting Epoxy from Golfsmith but there is one other thing about this.

Sometimes what I am doing REQUIRES a clear epoxy. One example is anytime I glue up ivory. It is somewhat translucent and if the expoxy I use is not clear, I just don't much care for the gray tint where it meets the guard or pommel. It looks dirty or at the very least, flawed.

I'll use a colorant otherwise, depending on the handle material or especially if a spacer used.

Just an observation...

As far as the experiment is concerned, those C clamps may be overkill and actually squeezing too much epoxy out for them to hold properly. One other thing is that there may be more pressure on this one than on that one. I personally use spring clamps any more.

After having said that, I am interested in the outcome.

Craig
 
I agree with Craig, spring clamps have improved the bond with epoxy. I was told by someone that was in position to know that there are only 2 or 3 manufactures of epoxy. All the brands supposedly come from the same sources. Anyone have any information about that?
Lynn
 
Howie, Ahhhh yeah, air exposure. Good thing I tested it before I tried using it. Although in fairness I think something is wrong. I opened the tube a few weeks ago. Now the stuff doesn't look right. So I think it went bad or something. So even if the stuff works but doesn't last after opening it's still out from my tests. Plus if it doesn't cure under pressure it's not appropriate for us.

Curing super glues. I did alot of research on this stuff and learned that those things start a chain reaction when exposed to moisture. Not much, just a little bit in the air. So there's kinda like a 2 part process. Gorilla glue is the same way, but seems to want more water. They recommend soaking the wood in water, which I did.- SEE I DID FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS!)

Regarding the curing temp. I really don't believe anything was hurt. JBWeld directions even say you can thin it during application by using a heat lamp and light bulb. Even when the battlefield was in the oven it wasn't too hot to handle bare handed.

Also, Craig, I think you missed the part about the internal pockets. Yes I squeezed them all pretty hard. I wanted them flush and I wanted to see how they would respond to a thin glue line. At the same time I know they are not all designed to work a the same thickness.

So the divits are there to give every glue a chance. The clamps are their to simulate the results we are looking for.

Again it IS a valid test. I don't want to know what adhesive is best for it's application. I want to know that adhesive is best for OUR application!

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Yes I got a little put off by complaints. I've done a lot of research, did a lot of planning, paid a lot of money (well Fitzo invested too) For example, looking at the engineering information for about every one of these glues stainless steel reduces the shear strength by at least half. Their rated strengths are usually with aluminum. I picked e-120hp, because it works well with stainless and still with wood. Some glues don't work worth squat on stainless - I left those out. Some don't like wood - I left those out. Some had curing or storage requirements none of us want to deal with. So, please don't complain.

BTW Craig, the adhesive you should be rooting for (I am) is u-05fl. It stay flexible forever, good heat resistance, good adhesion strength.

Lynn: "All the brands supposedly come from the same sources. Anyone have any information about that?"

Looking over the entries I only have 1 regular epoxy. DEVCON will have to do as a representative. West Systems looks and acts like DEVCON. So I don't know how similar is it. If you look close, tho they are all very different.

Steve
 
Tracy buddy, Please keep me up to date with your tests. I really interested (obviously!)

Steve
 
Oh Yeah: galadduin you're welcome. It's fun stuff!

You know another possible winner could be loctite xtreme. Why? It's not very strong. However, I believe when using a mechanical bond (bolts) what you want is something that will keep the blade sealed for years and years and will allow the wood to expand and contract. That's why I don't plan on using shear strength tests until the end. I want to know if these 'flexible' entries will hold reasonably well after the torture tests.

Steve
 
Steve,
I hope you didn't read anything into my post, I am looking forward to see where this ends up.

I was just burned very early on by using C-clamps. Not only was I squeezing out too much epoxy, later on a dimble would rise from the handle material where I clamped down due to the round thing on the screw end of the clamp! :eek:

Craig
 
C L Wilkins said:
Steve,
I hope you didn't read anything into my post, I am looking forward to see where this ends up.

Craig
Click to expand...


Craig, yeah I suppose I did. Sorry.

I've been burned too by over clamping! But like you said earlier you like a thin glue line. So do I. For the same reason I don't clamp like I used to.

On the other hand, these entries have a wide variety of viscosities. If I don't clamp hard on the thick ones, I'll get a thick glue line. What would that tell me? Who cares if glue X works great, but looks awful!

So again I have the pockets in the wood so there is an opportunity to grab. Then clamps are there to get the best looking glue line.

Make sense?

Steve
 
I hope the gorilla glue works well cause I been using it or somthing similar. Hope you mixed those epoxies real good sometimes failure might be due to poor mixing. Polyurethane=no mixing. That bubbly mess usually cleans up ok as long as theres no gap. If there is you see the dried foam along the glue line. Better off with epoxy then.
 
Great test, great idea, and thanks a million for conducting it! FYI, the epoxy that I have used for years, and really stake my reputation as a mesquite furniture on, is System Three's "T-88". I'm thinking that is close to, if not the same as, some of the West Systems components. I don't wan't to confuse the issue here by throwing in another product, but it is a good one. Steve my man, many thanks buddy for doing this test for us! You're going to have to write a book one of these days, on all that you are personally involved in. You'd sell a ton of copies!
 
one of the problems when over claming is when the two parts are not flat
you cause it to be it's own spring forcing it self off.
flexing type will be the best if used right I think because of expansion
do you know that aluminum expands almost at twice the rate as cast iron
I can only guess on other materials..mechanical is the way
but I see your point
but not sure what the point is if mechanical is best and the other is for sealing only.. :)
 
Good test. Have you considered adding Conap industrial epoxy to the group? I have been using it ever since I read the Loveless/Barney book, long, long ago and have never had a failure. I get it from Sheffield.

Fox
 
Dan: "one of the problems when over claming is when the two parts are not flat you cause it to be it's own spring forcing it self off."

No kidding, I've suffered from that too! That's the reason this test only has one clamping point for each block. See I've thought of many things for this test.

Fox, there are soooo many epoxies out there! I only wanted one adhesive in each category. Now if we find that one category is clearly best, THEN we can find the best of class. I picked:

one retail epoxy (Devcon).
one marine epoxy (West Systems)
one structural, aerospace epoxy (e-120hp).
one metal filled (JB Weld)
one what-do-you-call-it (Gorilla Glue)
one industrial super glue (Loctite 406)
one dimensionally stable epoxy (acra glass)
one retail flexible adhesive (xtreme repair)
one silicon adhesive (GE Silicon II)
one industrial flexible adhesive (Loctite u-05fl - BTW this is very different than anything I've every seen anybody use!)

If someone else wants to compare retail epoxies to find which one of those is the best have at it! But I have a feeling .... well we'll see.

Steve

BTW I'd appreciate questions about why, rather than "you should have". For example, "Why are their two holes in the bar?" Or "why are they all on the same bar?" Or, "what the heck is U-05FL?"
 
I would have thought the two holes were obvious... :P You did say in the dishwasher for a week, and in the engine bay of the car in in earlier post :P I assume the holes are to secure it in the dishwasher where the missus can't remove it, and to bolt it to the exhaust manifold :)
 
Kiwi,

Good guess. (For those tests I goofed up and realized I should have had another hole at the other end! My bad.)

Actually I have an idea for an impact test. Film at 11.

:)

Steve
 
I was wondering how Hyper-Flex adhesive would work. Now, after seeing this thread I set up a similar test for particularly this product. It was standing on the shelf for a couple of months nearly unused. I know it wont be so heat resistant, but it is used to seal pipes permenantly, may be will work somewhat..
 
The Visual Test

OK test #1 Visual.

I trimmed the wood with the band saw.
I ground it flush with a nice, new, sharp 80 grit
Sanded to 220
Sanded to 400
Buffed.

Everything looked fine except one side of the JB Weld. You could see the stuff. The Gorrilla Glue is the next widest seam, but not too bad. Not good enought for Larry Fuegen, but looks fine.

All in all, they performed well. JB Weld tho fails this test (in my opinion because it'll be really hard to make it seamless - the stuff is thick and has fillers.) I can't explain why only one side showed a seam. The wood was flat. Maybe it tilted a bit, 'cause it just doesn't thin out.



Heres the photos:

visual127.jpg

visual5.jpg

visual49.jpg
 
Please don't read this!

The first torcher test

Oh dang, I didn't expect this and you are going to shoot the messenger. You'll say I did it all wrong. I'm gonna get roasted. But I said I'd report my tests.......


Here's the impact tester (I put a picture of my little boy, hoping you'll have mercy on his father):

bar.jpg


The Test:

The bar is 5' long.
The 'battlefield' is bolted on the end.
There's a pivot bar (not pictured) for it to rotate on
The pivot is placed on a cement pad so the 'battlefield' hangs off the end
The bar is vertical and released so it falls to the floor.

An important point is that the 'battlefield' bar does NOT come in contact with anything. This is done so no one piece of wood is struck, making an unfair test. The only thing that happens to the wood is a strong jolt.

I wanted to simulate a knife dropped from chest high. Without, actually glancing off the wood.

(OH dang you're gonna shoot me for this!) :eek:

3 samples came off:

West Systems
Acraglas
Loctite 406 (super glue)

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This doesn't mean those are bad adhesives (OK this is a bad application for super glue - I expected that).

On inspection the west systems knocked off the steel pretty clean. The divit spot in the wood left some epoxy on the steel. So it did adhere pretty well.

The acraglas sample left more epoxy on the steel.

One thing that comes to mind is acraglass is designed to stay on the wood (gun stock applications) it does adhere to steel, but prefers wood. The west systems stuff is designed for fiberglass applications (I think - you know boating stuff.)

I really didn't expect those to come loose. Please feel free to run your own test. I might have goofed something up. But the others stayed on.

I wouldn't hesitate to use either of those (I've used a lot of acraglass) epoxies. They just didn't stick as well to hardended stainless steel as the others.

Dang I didn't expect that to happen. Only thought the super glue would give up.

Steve

(Now you know why I mounted them on the same bar. No one can accuse me of creating a different impact stress for each glue.)
 
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