Glue Wars - the battlefield is set

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One trip in the dishwasher and two more bit the dust.

DEVCON 2 ton

JB Weld


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OK some of use weren't suprised about the DEVCON. One thing that was interested is the epoxy shrunk in the pockets. Understandable since I don't believe it was designed as a gap filler. So if you are 'gluing' handles with devcon don't rely on epoxy pockets and don't squeeze them tight! It also shows me that devcon is not dimensionally stable. It's not the right choice for filling hidden tang handles. In my book that's still owned by Acraglas.

The suprise is JB Weld!? There is a nice coating on the wood. The pockets are rock solid hard. However, it pulled clean off the stainless steel.

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OK NOW you can complain about my process. I don't understand it myself. I think there is going to be a rematch.

Let's see, if everything came off, then I would know the steel wasn't prepared properly or my process too extreme.

But the survivors are doing just fine. On nice and secure.


deathrow2.jpg



Any and all comments welcome....

Steve
 
Bruce Bump said:
I have always liked JB Weld but
that gray color turns me off. I add black powder to it. .
Click to expand...


easy now bruce I resemble that remark.. :)

GREY :confused: :D

either your trying to blow me up or turn me on :footinmou :D :D
 
I am surprised it happened THAT fast. I expected it to last at least a little longer. :eek:
 
Very interesting.

One question: is there any reason that an adhesive good for scales would not be for a hidden tang? E.g., a glue that would require clamping might not be as good for a hidden tang.
 
Abrasives and adhesives are probably the two most interesting compounds that I can think of. Great experiment! Keep posting on the results. Are there any other adhesives that you can think of that you would like to try for part II?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
OK the next thing would be which one of the remainders
can be used for both slabs and stick.

:) thoughts
 
Joss said:
Very interesting.

One question: is there any reason that an adhesive good for scales would not be for a hidden tang? E.g., a glue that would require clamping might not be as good for a hidden tang.
Click to expand...


Hidden tang construction has a big hollow to fill. Not all epoxies are designed to fill gaps - they shrink if too thick. DEVCON did that. I wouldn't use it for a filler.

Acraglas is designed exactly for that purpose. They advertise very little shrinkage. That's the stuff I use and will continue to use.

I'm suprised these two came off so fast too, RW. Maybe they were loosened on the impact test.

For a follow on (when I find this much time again) test, I'm going to focus on the epoxies that failed. Either I'll make more 'pockets' or leave a glue line.

RE: Glue line.

We all know you don't want to squeeze the glue line this thin without pockets of glue in the slabs. This test I was hoping to find a glue that worked with pockets like this. If every thing failed this fast then I would know it's impossible to achieve. The fact that some 'glues' can survive this type of construction tells me a lot.

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So far the most suprising result is the Loctite Xtreme. It's a goopy, stay-flexible stuff that smells like a superglue. Hmmmm....

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Gorilla glue might a great glue if it didn't foam like that. No way you could use it in an area that doesn't get ground. Like the front of bolsters. You'd never get it clean. That foam is sooooo sticky!

Steve
 
Maybe the epoxy was overclamped, and it became too thin a film?
I've read something about it somewhere...
I'm going to do some more reading.
In epoxies, I think we want something that doesn't shrink. works in thin film coats, and stands up to heat, plus is waxless (which most polyester resins aren't).

I used to use a two part RTV rubber in the USAF that was used on metal parts, and it would not come off easily, but there was a primer that was used on the metal first, which allowed it to stick really well. I've not seen it available anywhere, though.
More reading to do.
 
Howie,

It was too thin, on purpose. The hold points where from the two holes I drilled in the wood.

Steve
 
It would have been a better bond without the holes in the wood, and better with holes through the bar, IMO.
 
We have a winner - sort of.

I did another impact test. We lost:

Gorilla Glue
U-05FL

Xtreme Repair was loose but still on.

So the winner is E-120HP. Surprise, the stuff is designed to hold airplanes together.

Well almost won. I boiled the 'battlefield' in water for a half hour. The E-120HP came off. Xtreme was still on, but loose.

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So what did I learn?

* This test is way too tough. I was expecting too much. Two small pockets is not enough to hold even a small piece of wood against impact. I don't believe that's a failure of the adhesive, it's just a bad test. We all know mechanical bonding is the only way to go. To test the sealing properties I need to thing of a new test.

* The only 'glues' that left reside on the steel were (in order)

Xtreme (Everything on the steel - none on the wood)
E-120HP (had the most even left a scrape of wood on it)
JB Weld - AcraGlass (tie)
West Systems - Gorilla Glue (tie)
DEVCON
U-05FL (non)


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Strongest:

E-120HP

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Best steel hugger

Xtreme


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Zero Shrinkage

JB Weld, Acraglas, Gorilla Glue, west systems

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Now that I've had my adventure I still want to know the most resilient 'glue' - Any test ideas please?

I could run the same test with a thick glue line, but this impact thing is WAY to harsh for a non-mechanical bond.

Steve
 
howiesatwork said:
It would have been a better bond without the holes in the wood, and better with holes through the bar, IMO.
Click to expand...

You're RIGHT!!!!!

Wow something else to learn from this.

Thanks,

Steve
 
Maybe I could do the same test without the impact tester.

Just use environment until it they all fail.


How does that sound?

Steve
 
First, Thank YOU(!) for taking the time and expense to do these tests for the betterment of all!

I believe an impact test is a viable option for this series of tests. Nearly every knife gets this treatment at one time or another, if only by accident. :eek:
 
Sando, good job. Figured the test would last longer. :eek:

I just did not think what you were doing was "THAT" bad. (well the dishwasher was kinda nasty :D ).

Howabout next time you remove some variables. Don't use wood but Micarta instead. I understand why you used the wood but I think Micarta might be a more even playing field. Also might try sand blasting the steel to give the glue a little more to hold on to.

I think there is a better way to set up the impact tester as well. If you would like I can do up some quick sketches and send them over on e-mail.

I would really like to see you put my Speed Bonder up against that E-120.
 
R.W.Clark said:
Sando, good job. Figured the test would last longer. :eek:

I just did not think what you were doing was "THAT" bad. (well the dishwasher was kinda nasty :D ).

Howabout next time you remove some variables. Don't use wood but Micarta instead. I understand why you used the wood but I think Micarta might be a more even playing field. Also might try sand blasting the steel to give the glue a little more to hold on to.

I think there is a better way to set up the impact tester as well. If you would like I can do up some quick sketches and send them over on e-mail.

I would really like to see you put my Speed Bonder up against that E-120.
Click to expand...


I thought it would last longer too. That impact tester is a HUGE wack! I was thinking that the only stress would be caused by the weight of the wood against the 'glue'. You know, if you glued some wood to the side of a safe and dropped it from the window - it isn't the weight of the falling thing; it's the weight of the wood that causes the stress.

However, that steel bar hitting the cement must cause huge vibrations. I think that's what did it in so fast.

I'd be real interested in your ideas from something to test the adherence without so much abuse.

You're also very right about micarta or something. The wood on the E-120HP actually cracked. Leaving some wood on the steel bar. It's not the most consistent meduim.

What the heck is Speed Bonder?

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I still can't get over how much the Xtreme holds onto the steel!? It's flexible and yet cannot be scraped off with your finger nails. There's two little rubbery 'knobs' where the divits where in the wood. They are on there. I think bolted on handles with this stuff is a heck of a combination.


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All in all, I really didn't find out what adhesive is best for withstanding environment changes. Kinda sad after all that work and $$ ........

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misque, you're very welcome. I hope you got something from it.

Steve
 
OK tracy your turn.

I hope this has given you some food for thought on your tests. I REALLY looking forward to a full report.

Steve
 
I will work something up and send it out. I think impact is valid but maybe something not so harsh.
 
Speedbonder is actually LocTite Speedbonder 326 with Primer N. It is a high speed two part industrial adhesive that I got turned onto when I toured a couple knife factories. It is pressure reactive (that is my understanding at least).

Both parts are coated in Primer N and left to dry then one part is coated in 326. You can leave the parts pretty much forever in this state and they will not set up. However, once you put the parts together you have about 5 seconds to make sure everything is perfect. If not, you are literally STUCK. After about 45 seconds you can start cutting and grinding with no worries of the parts slipping or shifting. Once the stuff is fully cured it must be ground off. I have tried to chissel handle scales off to no avail.

Any of the glue and squeezes out does not cure and can just be wiped off. Once I was shown this stuff I have never looked back. The bad part is that it is very hard to get and at about $300 per liter it is quite costly.
 
In the end just fall back to ol'Brownell's Acraglass. Its as good as anything I've yet seen bonding to steel. I don't trust any of them to bond well enough to steel myself and an extra effort should be expended to add additional security. That's my belief.

RL
 
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