"gosh" Giarsun Kung - burglar! WARNING!

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SaviC said:
I paid $1060 for knife, Express mail shipment and PP fees.
Paypal refund me $660.
For $400 paypal wrote me, that they were unable to recover this money from the
seller's account. As I understood, his account is empty.
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There is something written in the other (closed) thread indicating you made three separate payments to the seller. Please explain why you did this and what each amount was for.
 
Bryan J said:
There is something written in the other (closed) thread indicating you made three separate payments to the seller. Please explain why you did this and what each amount was for.
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In eastern Europe we have Paypal accounts with limited functions. We can't have money just on paypal account like in yours US accounts.
We have a possibility to make payments only directly from a credit card through paypal. For the purpose of avoidance of thefts the bank limits quantity of transactions and their maximum sums on a card.
Therefore I couldn't pay by one transaction this such big money from my credit card.
 
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Karda said:
As "you" see it is exactly right.

As SaviC has stated, how do we know the package was actually sent? How do we know this isnt a scam and SaviC has already recieved the knife and wants the money too? How do we actually know which party was Refunded since both are "claiming" they were refunded? It wouldnt be the first time such scams have been done. Until both parties prove their facts with more than insinuation and argument noone here has the proof needed to make a judgement one way or another and any speculation is just that....

The only thing that is clear in this thread is that both parties agreed to terms that would leave them hanging if the package went astray and both are at fault for that and the improper mailing of the object will probably make it so even the parties involved may never know.

Still it wouldnt hurt both to stop the bickering and try to find the package.
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Both parties agreed to terms which Gosh failed to comply with - very specific ones in fact. Savic did nothing wrong. It's all very clear. Savic posted the paypal info and gosh started whinning about how PP took the money in the other thread and now his story changes. He admits he did not follow instructions and keeps digging his own hole deeper. Gosh owes Savic a full refund - if the knife shows up - then Savic can refund gosh the money back. If gosh did what was asked none of this would have happened - he would have protected himself from it all. The knife would have been insured, tracking available, and a speedy service. The customs description is a non-issue > as stated prior it's a standard practice and it did not in anyway contribute to this issue. Bickering can be stopped by gosh manning up and giving Savic all his money back or somehow find the knife. Seems everyone else get's it excpet for you and gosh. Those are the facts.
 
Karda said:
the chance both parties took when agreeing to their terms.
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The terms they agreed to were not fulfilled by the seller. Savic shouldn't have to do anything but count the money refunded to him.

That said, if the knife should show up he should either pay for it, or send the knife back, obviously.
 
Karda said:
The only thing that is clear in this thread is that both parties agreed to terms that would leave them hanging if the package went astray and both are at fault for that and the improper mailing of the object will probably make it so even the parties involved may never know.
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How is Savic responsible for Gosh NOT mailing it Express Mail (which could be tracked)? Savic said "ship it express", Gosh said "ok", Gosh then proceeded to ship it NOT using Express Mail.
 
Gastonknife said:
Seems everyone else get's it excpet for you and gosh. Those are the facts.
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Please allow each of us to see the facts for ourselves. Assertions are not proof.

Please remain courteous, especially to our new Exchange forums moderator, Karda, who just provided us with a careful, logical breakdown of the possibilities here. Yes, gosh did wrong. No, we don't know where the knife is. Therefore, this is still an open question.

Anyone who "get's (sic) it" at this point, is hypothesizing in advance of the facts.
 
Not sure how possibilities are careful or logical compared to the facts at hand? I'll kindly state a case with duely noted complete civility:

1. specific service type was agreed to by both and paid for by Savic -gosh chose to disregard and send the cheap way
2. tracking would have been available - it's not because gosh did not send it the way agreed and paid
3. Service would have been quicker - again gosh's choice - I am sure knife would have been there weeks ago
4. insurance was agreed to, paid for and would have been logical - gosh again chose not to do so
5. Savic copied the PP info
6. gosh opened the other thread - about how PP took money back and he blames savic - now his story changes

possibilities are endless - sure
but, the facts are that gosh messed up and the possibilities do not matter - so whether he likes it or not - it's on him

thank you
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Please allow each of us to see the facts for ourselves. Assertions are not proof.

Please remain courteous, especially to our new Exchange forums moderator, Karda, who just provided us with a careful, logical breakdown of the possibilities here. Yes, gosh did wrong. No, we don't know where the knife is. Therefore, this is still an open question.

Anyone who "get's (sic) it" at this point, is hypothesizing in advance of the facts.
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You should understand, that Ukraine - it's not the United States. Our customs services are less friendly than yours, I am assured of it. I can submit inquiry about search only for packets with normal registered numbers - that's why I insist of USPS Express.
If a package without number - they will not do anything. I very well know it because earlier I lost money because of it. After those losses I precisely know that at sending of expensive things - my payment for good shipment service like USPS Express - it's my guarantee of reception of the goods. You should understand - I knowingly first of all make the demand about shipment by good service and pay for it money, if a thing expensive like this. I pay this additional money not because I am rich man and I want quickly. I pay it because I want guarantee, that packet will not be lost - and without this service in my country unfortunately I can't have this guarantee.
 
Gastonknife said:
The customs description is a non-issue > as stated prior it's a standard practice and it did not in anyway contribute to this issue.
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Just because something is "standard practice" by those wish to subvert rules does not make them right or absolve them of responsibility. Does Gosh bear responsibility for his action in not sending it as required? absolutely.
Because of the customs declaration AND the way it was shipped it could be missing or it could be seized by customs. Noone will know until they try to find it, which should've already happened before either thread was started.
 
For example.
At the same time I've bought from SOG_CDR this bali:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/894895

I asked from him the same like from gosh - USPS Express, camping tool with $100 value.
He sent that knife to me the same day like gosh - 15'th of november. By Express mail, like I asked with observance of all conditions - you can ask him about that transaction. I've received it in one week after he sent it without any problems!
 
All this talk about the buyer going to customs or the P.O. to ask for the knife is baffling.

HOW can he ask if he doesn't have documentation or tracking info?? Here in Finland (an EU country) officials at the P.O. or Customs would not check for you unless there is documentation, nor would they be friendly as they may regard it as time wasting. How can they find the packets without it? Can they be expected to search a whole warehouse full of goods just on say-so? No.

The reason why the buyer does not have documentation and or tracking is that the seller totally messed up by neglecting to provide the service which the buyer paid for and they mutually agreed to. That is why this thread is running and running and the other one got closed down......
 
Karda said:
Just because something is "standard practice" by those wish to subvert rules does not make them right or absolve them of responsibility. Does Gosh bear responsibility for his action in not sending it as required? absolutely.
Because of the customs declaration AND the way it was shipped it could be missing or it could be seized by customs. Noone will know until they try to find it, which should've already happened before either thread was started.
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Thanks for proving my point that gosh absolutely bears responsibility. Nuf said.
that is the point everyone has tried to make
 
Karda said:
Please read my previous posts....
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i have read them, but don't see anything that he did that would have prevented the knife from getting to him. sure, he can call customs, but that's about all he can do.

If I ordered a $1000 ANYTHING from a business, I would be on the phone every day with them finding out where it is, why i don't have it, what they are going to do to rectify the problem.

Sure, we don't know he hasn't already received it, as you said, but that is speculation at best. I could say the same thing about gosh, how do we KNOW it was even shipped?

Again, GOSH screwed up when he failed to ship it the way he was asked to. of which he was paid extra. of which he has admitted.

That's what it comes down to, GOSH ADMITTED HE WAS AT FAULT. But he refuses to rectify or take responsibility for his mistake.
 
And i don't disgree that gosh is at fault for not shipping it properly. All i'm saying is that without proof, i might also be hesitant to refund the money in full until investigation is done. There must be some type of numbers or something on the package to give the powers that be.
 
Even 1st class has a customs number.But its basically useless unless customs has it and then it should have been scanned by them.Other than that,no tracking is available. Im going through a similar bad deal with a buyer in Israel.Its obvious to me from his overblown phsyco rantings and previous amended feedback that he has the knife and is just taking advantage of the paypal buyer protection theft service.My days of international shipping are over except with express,Unfortunately seldom does anyone want to pay the 35 bucks for express on a $100-150 or less knife.Yes,the op screwed up badly,but mail is mail and ive found it almost always gets to the destination.Sometimes very late,especially this time of year.I feel badly for both parties here.Hopefully it will turn up.
 
Bum deal, lotta drama here. A quick question-how is stating a customs value below actual purchase price not some sort of import or customs fraud?

At work we occasionally get asked to do this kind if thing but tell the customers we can't.
 
Karda said:
And i don't disgree that gosh is at fault for not shipping it properly. All i'm saying is that without proof, i might also be hesitant to refund the money in full until investigation is done. There must be some type of numbers or something on the package to give the powers that be.
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From my POV. I had a parcel come in from the states. It was taking a while to arrive, so I checked the US postal number given and saw that it had arrived at customs. I stopped by the post office on the way home and asked if it was in. Because I did not have the parcel slip from Canada Post I was told there was no way to tell if it was in or not. They do not track by name or address- only by shipping number (the lady checked my name). I went home, grabbed the slip that was put in my mailbox and returned to get my parcel. Without the Canada Post number I was SOL unless they recognized me or the package- which is not happening. So in my case there would be no investigation, no recourse except to file with Paypal/CC etc. I did call Canada Post to find out if there was anything I could do or if the post office workers could check in a different manner and was told that the number is everything- if it isn't in the computer then SOL. So if the post offices work at all similar there is no way that Savic could have done anything except what he did- which was what I was about to do as I had only 3 days remaining before PP protection ran out.

To me:
Savic paid in full the pre-determined amount in good faith, chose a method that was traceable and accepted by the seller. The seller did not comply, and as a result the package is lost. Now that the seller has admitted his mistake, and the buyer has begun proceedings to protect his investment (after fulfilling his trust obligations) it is on the seller to refund in full the purchase price until the package has been found. If the seller trusted that the buyer was good for the money up front (he was), then the seller must then return the trust that the buyer will notify if anything has changed. That is the reality of the transaction based on BF rules, and it irks me that the Buyer is being held accountable for actions out of his control, and frankly aren't any of his worries. Either he gets his knife, or takes action to get his money back.

Often on here we hear people saying that they trusted the seller until their protection period has passed, and then they are out both knife and money- yet here the OP has been denigrated for taking such action to protect a not small sum against somebody who already admitted that he did not follow through with his end of the bargain, has not seemed to feel bad about it, and may have withdrawn funds to prevent a full refund of his investment. This does not sit well with me at all. The man paid his money and has no proof of delivery- the onus is on the seller alone in this case- again to me.

Karda- for you to say you would be hesitant to refund money after you made the mistake is not the kind of response I expected from you. Again the tracking that was not purchased as agreed would have covered the seller- but it was his fault by his own admission that it was not. So the responsibility falls squarely on the sellers shoulders, there is no grey area in my mind over this.

I tried no to enter this thread, however as I recently almost went through the same thing I thought another international opinion may add something to the discussion, and I had to put my support toward the buyer in this case after getting his name dragged through the mud previously. Please all- let my remarks not be taken with malice as I do not feel any toward any individual thus far involved in this thread- however a big feeling of disappointment to the seller in this case, who still has the opportunity to make amends with the buyer until further information about the location of the knife is given.

I've had many great deals on here, a few people have taken me outright or cheated me out of what I paid for and dissappeared, however I feel that discourse such as this help the forum as a whole- rarely do you find strangers willing to support you in online communities and I feel that is one of the things that makes BF special and I don't want to see that harmed.
 
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