"gosh" Giarsun Kung - burglar! WARNING!

[Steven65]

correct all the facts needed are there - the customs declaration is irrelevant. First both agreed and second no way a customs person in Ukraine would ever know whether a knife is worth $100 or $1000 - that's just not going to happen - think about it.

I cannot speak for Ukrainian customs but I am well versed with customs practices here in my own country, as well as the UK.

Here in South Africa, proof of payment may be requested by customs if they are suspicious of the value.

They send you a note asking you to appear with your proof of payment. They then open and inspect the package in front of you. If they don't like what they see or your paperwork/explanation is not in order, they refer it for investigation and then the fun starts.......... Customs here in SA are remarkably well versed in Google and most things show up in seconds with their values. There is no reason to think that customs in the Ukraine are any less adept.

There is little doubt in my mind that this entire affair could have been avoided had Gosh shipped the package correctly and not opened a thread falsely accusing SaviC of being a scammer.
In my opinion Gosh should refund SaviC in full and if the package appears SaviC should do the right thing and pay him in full. I have said this in previous posts.

However as Karda has pointed out, both the buyer and the seller agreed to mis-label and undervalue the package contents. So there is a chance that this action has caused the delay or seizure of the package.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn Fan]

Does gosh have an opinion on this matter?

GOSH no longer cares, he has been online here and chooses to not participate. He attempted to trash saviC without providing one of the main facts to the problem (Not shipping per their Buyer /Seller agreement). He then closes the initial thread when things are not going his way and then jumps into this thread when he felt it suited his purpose.

I think even GOSH would understand that anyone reading either of these threads would be hesitant to do any type of business with him.

SAVIC, he started his initial BS thread without all the facts, and called you out by name in that thread. I think it would be appropriate if you were to return the favor and identify the person's name behind GOSH so others will know who he is should "GOSH" decide to disappear.

 

[Mack]

Personally I would be hesitant to do business with either of these guys. When someone I am considering doing business with wants me to do something that is at the very least enethical and at worst illegal I refuse the business.
We don't know where this knife is. We don't know if customs has it, if the buyer has it and says that he didn't receive it, that the seller never shipped it or that is was lost in transit.

 

[Karda]

SAVIC, he started his initial BS thread without all the facts, and called you out by name in that thread. I think it would be appropriate if you were to return the favor and identify the person's name behind GOSH so others will know who he is should "GOSH" decide to disappear.

You did read the thread title?......didnt you?

 

[Foghorn Leghorn Fan]

You did read the thread title?......didnt you?

Ouch! Kinda somehow missed that.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

You guys are still missing the point. And Karda, as a mod you are doing no favors by encouraging this pointless circular logic.

Let's look at it one more time:

The customs form is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT because they agreed to ship the package express, which would have avoided the problem of it getting lost. The package was not shipped express as agreed, and so the seller is at fault. Period.

 

[Tengster]

The customs form is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT because they agreed to ship the package express, which would have avoided the problem of it getting lost. The package was not shipped express as agreed, and so the seller is at fault. Period.

+1 for that.

Seller made a mistake, please own up and rectify it despite the pain. Don't toss around and try to picture all other international buyers are crooks.

 

[SaviC]

Both parties should learn their lesson and move on. Paypall made it's ruling on the financial part of it and now we know of perhaps two people to be wary of doing business with.

Paypal decided FULL refund to my favor. Only because seller devastated his account - Paypal don't have a possibility to refund me last part of my money.
Screenshot from paypal claim board for last part:

It mean that they try to refund, isn't it?
And message on my mail board instead of money:

I think, it mean only that he devastated his account, isn't it?
I paid through paypal directly from my credit card - that's why payment by three parts - and now I think that because of that I have at least partial refund. I received refund for two parts - totally $660. For last $400 - his account empty. Now I think that if it would be by one transaction for $1060 - Paypal would try to refund in full - and because of lack of money on his account I'd received instead ALL money this message, that Paypal unable to recover any funds from his account. I'd be in general without ALL money! - isn't it? It again confirms, that he is a liar.

How do we know customs isn't the issue?

Ive said this at least twice already.....
Unless BOTH posters are willing to post their EVIDENCE in this thread, we as observers can only SPECULATE.

I'm sorry, but it's only philosophy. On practice without tracking I don't have any possibility to find anything. I specially also ordered such service which would allow me to find a packet in any case. And the seller by his actions has completely deprived me an opportunity to find this packet. And how you know that he has not made it intentionally, considering that he is the liar from his first words about me?

I'm saying that they agreed to try to skirt the law and failed. If Gosh had shipped it the other way and it had been dicovered and confiscated things would be exactly as they are today.

It would be only my problem, in this case I'd never open a dispute clime on Paypal against him.

 

[Will Power]

People may to and fro over this Customs' declaration, but it is not the core issue .Another thing it says 'value' not price paid, the 'value' may be greater as in bargain or smaller as in rip-off.

If it had been shipped as agreed and paid for, this situation would not have arisen, other aspects are peripheral.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

You guys are still missing the point. And Karda, as a mod you are doing no favors by encouraging this pointless circular logic.

Let's look at it one more time:

The customs form is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT because they agreed to ship the package express, which would have avoided the problem of it getting lost. The package was not shipped express as agreed, and so the seller is at fault. Period.

No, you are missing Karda's point. As a member, you are addressing a narrow, specific issue. That's fine for a short complaint that we can help the parties resolve. Since this has gone on long past that, Karda is taking the time to help future deals avoid another potential problem.

IS HE DENYING OR COVERING UP THE MAIN POINT? No. So let it go. You aren't helping by, in effect, telling people they can submit a false document.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Esav,

1. The seller willfully broke the agreement to send the knife by Express mail, which led to the knife getting lost
2. The seller got upset when PayPal ruled against him, and then started a flame thread to drag the buyer's name through the mud
3. The seller is now willfully withholding funds after PayPal already ruled in the buyer's favor
4. The seller currently still owes the buyer over $600.00

And you want to bash the buyer over the customs form? I feel bad for SaviC.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Karda is taking the time to help future deals avoid another potential problem.

I think a separate thread would be appropriate for that then because it looks like Karda is ignoring all the above points I just made and focusing on this customs form thing. And you are misquoting me, which I resent. I did NOT say that people can submit a false document. I would NEVER say that. I said that everyone does it and has been doing it for a long time, so it's not fair to single out SaviC here. Half of BF who've ever done an international deal are guilty of the same "crime."

You're right and we should talk about the customs form thing for the future, but maybe in another, new thread. Because right now we're not discussing the real issue, which is how SaviC is getting royally screwed by the seller, and Karda just wants to talk about the customs form.

 

[Karda]

Esav,

1. The seller willfully broke the agreement to send the knife by Express mail, which led to the knife getting lost
2. The seller got upset when PayPal ruled against him, and then started a flame thread to drag the buyer's name through the mud
3. The seller is now willfully withholding funds after PayPal already ruled in the buyer's favor
4. The seller currently still owes the buyer over $600.00

And you want to bash the buyer over the customs form? I feel bad for SaviC.....and disappointed in Karda and You.

Noone is bashing anyone here. Stick to facts.
In the long run what are we supposed to do about it? The moderators and BFc in general is not responsible for the actions happening in the exchange, we can only mediate and mitigate. In the end it is up to the buyers and sellers to work it out amicably between themselves or take appropriate action as necessary off the forum.

 

[CWL]

Paypal decided FULL refund to my favor. Only because seller devastated his account - Paypal don't have a possibility to refund me last part of my money...

...

I think, it mean only that he devastated his account, isn't it?
I paid through paypal directly from my credit card - that's why payment by three parts - and now I think that because of that I have at least partial refund. I received refund for two parts - totally $660. For last $400 - his account empty. Now I think that if it would be by one transaction for $1060 - Paypal would try to refund in full - and because of lack of money on his account I'd received instead ALL money this message, that Paypal unable to recover any funds from his account. I'd be in general without ALL money! - isn't it? It again confirms, that he is a liar.

Savic, you can still file a claim with your credit card company for the $400 difference, as log as this has not been 60 days. - At least this is an option for USA, I don't know Ukrainian laws.

 

[CWL]

No Cwl, I did not. My paypal account is linked directly to my bank account, If anything happens paypal can withdraw it direct or vise versa. If you use paypal you'll know that after you reach a $5000 paypal requires you to link your bank account. I have outstanding credit and would not dare jeopardize it over any amount.

gosh, this is no longer the case is it? So for $400 you'd rather ruin your Paypal relationship and possibly your credit?

 

[Ryanol]

The facts as I see them:

USPS (any of there services) is the cheapest but absolute crappiest way to ship anything internationally.

Gosh is more to blame- he shipped in correctly.

Both parties agreed to something that may have materially affected the outcome (import/customs fraud)

Stating that you committed or conspired to commit Fraud in an online forum is a bad idea.

 

[Bryan J]

I've been in contact with SaviC, who has allowed me access to his entire PayPal account activity over the past three months. The evidence I've seen corroborates everything SaviC has claimed. He made three separate payments to gosh's PayPal account of $400, $400, and $260. For each of these transactions he filed a dispute with PayPal--that's three separate disputes--and in each case PayPal decided in his favor, awarding him a payment reversal. However, he only actually received two of the refunds, a $400 and a $260 (that's $660 total). The third reversal did not go through because there were insufficient funds in gosh's account to execute the transaction. Thus SaviC is still $400 in the red on this deal. This much is all factual, supported by the official PayPal record.

The strange thing to me is that gosh claims that PayPal compensated him for SaviC's $660 reversal (on 12/16 I think). In other words, gosh is claiming that while true his account was charged $660 to refund SaviC's payment, PayPal subsequently credited him back the $660. If this claim is true (and I would have no way of verifying this without seeing gosh's PayPal record), this $660 did not come out of SaviC's PayPal account. Thus, gosh's claim compels us to believe that PayPal paid him $660 out of their own pocket! I find it very difficult to believe that PayPal paid him $660 gratuitously. Why would they do this? If they made a mistake, why wouldn't they have just drained this $660 from SaviC's account. Again, I've seen SaviC's PayPal activity over this time period--this alleged $660 definitely did not come from his account.

 

[Bryan J]

Savic, you can still file a claim with your credit card company for the $400 difference, as log as this has not been 60 days. - At least this is an option for USA, I don't know Ukrainian laws.

SaviC, read this. I was going to email you about this possibility. You should contact your credit card company and initiate a "chargeback". The credit card company will then obtain these funds directly from PayPal (independent of gosh's account). PayPal will be left with the problem of getting the money back from gosh.

 

[SaviC]

SaviC, read this. I was going to email you about this possibility. You should contact your credit card company and initiate a "chargeback". The credit card company will then obtain these funds directly from PayPal (independent of gosh's account). PayPal will be left with the problem of getting the money back from gosh.

In my country we have the same law for 60 days refund if it was thief actions, I think it's general law for all cards like Visa or Master card for all over the world. I know about this possibility, but I don't know, what paypal would think about me if I'd do it. I never did similar relation to Paypal - probably after that they in general will freeze my account? I need this account, because I'm buying through Paypal a lot of things from ebay. If my account would be freezing after this my action - it's like catastrophe for me. I didn't imagine, that the person with which I have a deal also which has enough positive responses here - can made so disgracefully thing, and easier to devastate the account, to avoid the third side (paypal) decision. I think, if he the normal guy - he should refund my money after the Paypal decision, considering that it was his error in shipment type. Otherwise who on BF after that will have with him some business? Gosh - do you have some words for this threads, WHICH YOU STARTED? How I see - your choice - simply disappear?

 

[Gastonknife]

Yes, where is Gosh?

Would be nice to hear how he plans to make this right.