"gosh" Giarsun Kung - burglar! WARNING!

[Karda]

I said i would be hesitant, not that i wouldn't refund. You can bet i'd be doing everything possible to find that package. I would also be forwarding any package numbers to the buyer to see if he could have any luck on his end.
As for Blaming SaviC, his only culpability is asking the seller to commit fraud by lying on the customs form to save import tax and to hide the fact that he may be importing something he possibly should not, which is unclear from this end despite many google searches. Fudging those forms in itself could cause the package to be held at customs.

My sole purpose here was to encourage both parties to stop the name calling and bickering long enough to prove facts and work to find the package and/or solve the problem. As stated before until we as observers have some proof posted here for all to see, siding with one or the other is based on heresay and speculation.

 

[Steven65]

how is Savic to blame at all in this mess?

SaviC is not to blame for the incorrect un-trackable shipping BUT..........

This thread is a cautionary tale to all about shipping articles Internationally without the correct value and description........ it can cause problems and I advise no-one to do it.
Incorrect valuation and labeling of packages can get the package seized by customs or delay them unnecessarily.

In this case Gosh AGREED to undervalue and mislabel the package as a condition of sale. So he is complicit in this problem.

When I purchase from the US (or anywhere for that matter) I always ask the seller to place the exact purchase price as the declared value. Yes I pay more duty but so what........my packages fly through customs with never a hitch.

I label fixed blades as: "Fixed Blade Knife"
Utility/tactical Folders as: "Folding Pocket Knife"
Traditional's as: "Pen Knife" (Pen knife here is the general term for a slip lock)

Automatics and Balisongs are illegal in most countries. Although they are legal here in South Africa common sense tells me never ship them Internationally. The chance of having a problem is to great.

 

[Ryanol]

Bingo- and while your at it skip the USPS and ship FEdEx UPS or DHL w/ insurance if you can't afford to replace the item. We ship hundreds of parcels internationally and the USPS is far and away the slowest with the least among of recourse. I've had packages shipped to Africa take three months to deliver.

How long has this package been missing?

 

[SaviC]

This thread is a cautionary tale to all about shipping articles Internationally without the correct value and description........ it can cause problems and I advise no-one to do it.
Incorrect valuation and labeling of packages can get the package seized by customs or delay them unnecessarily.

If something happens on custom with packet - it would be only my problem, and I'd resolved it from my side without any claims to the seller. But I would know about problem it if it would be with tracking info. What sellers risks in this case? No risks on seller!
Without tracking info it would be just stolen during transit if examination in any country - in US, in my country, or in any from transit countries. If seller would make all action like in shipment instruction - it would exclude possibility of usual theft of a package! -and all other problems - it's my problem, and with tracking I would have a possibility to resolve a problem from my part depends on situation.It wouldn't be sellers problem, only my!!! If seller make all things right - in this case the sellers risks close to zero, all risks on the buyer! Gosh has just deprived my possibility of the decision of a problem from my side! He has transformed this shipping to lottery for me!

 

[Steven65]

If something happens on custom with packet - it would be only my problem, and I'd resolved it from my side without any claims to the seller. But I would know about problem it if it would be with tracking info. What sellers risks in this case? No risks on seller!

Like it or not it is wrong. You are attempting to defraud customs/revenue. Essentially you are committing a crime.

Numerous US sellers have been defrauded by buyers who have had parcel seized by customs. The buyer then opens a Paypal dispute and when the money is refunded they close their Paypal account. The seller then sits with no knife, no money and no way to claim from insurance. So there is a real risk to the seller in deliberately lying and attempting to defraud customs. (Not to mention that it is morally wrong.)

I understand why you did it. Here we pay 30% duty and another 14% VAT. So a $1000-00 knife quickly becomes $1400-00. No-one likes to pay the extra, but if you can afford $1000-00 for a Balisong you can afford the duty.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

I said i would be hesitant, not that i wouldn't refund. You can bet i'd be doing everything possible to find that package. I would also be forwarding any package numbers to the buyer to see if he could have any luck on his end.
As for Blaming SaviC, his only culpability is asking the seller to commit fraud by lying on the customs form to save import tax and to hide the fact that he may be importing something he possibly should not, which is unclear from this end despite many google searches. Fudging those forms in itself could cause the package to be held at customs.

My sole purpose here was to encourage both parties to stop the name calling and bickering long enough to prove facts and work to find the package and/or solve the problem. As stated before until we as observers have some proof posted here for all to see, siding with one or the other is based on heresay and speculation.

If I was SaviC, I wouldn't spend 0.000002 seconds looking for that package in a Third World customs office. And I don't think he should. That's what he tried so hard to avoid in the first place, Karda. And now you're asking him to do just that. Well, I have to respectfully but very firmly disagree with you. And if I was him, I sure as darned heck wouldn't do it!

Imagine you told someone who just sold you a knife to carefully hand it to you, slowly, tip back, with their left hand, extending their arm straight out. And instead of that, they use their right arm and throw it straight into a sewage pumping chamber. Do you think you should "stop bickering" and go look for it in that stinking cesspool? That's what you're asking SaviC to do, and you are being unfair and wrong, pal. You're taking this "balanced" thing too far. There is nothing "balanced" in this equation. SaviC is the victim, period, and the only thing he needs to do now is get his money back from Gosh, in my humble opinion.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Also, some of you are making a mountain out of molehill about the customs form thing. That's a non-issue in this equation, folks. BF members have been doing that on their customs forms since the beginning of time. It is a completely unrelated issue and not worth getting worked up over. Yes, it's "wrong," but give it a rest already... it's not the issue at hand here and you know it.

 

[Karda]

If I was SaviC, I wouldn't spend 0.000002 seconds looking for that package in a Third World customs office. And I don't think he should. That's what he tried so hard to avoid in the first place, Karda. And now you're asking him to do just that. Well, I have to respectfully but very firmly disagree with you. And if I was him, I sure as darned heck wouldn't do it!

Imagine you told someone who just sold you a knife to carefully hand it to you, slowly, tip back, with their left hand, extending their arm straight out. And instead of that, they use their right arm and throw it straight into a sewage pumping chamber. Do you think you should "stop bickering" and go look for it in that stinking cesspool? That's what you're asking SaviC to do, and you are being unfair and wrong, pal. You're taking this "balanced" thing too far. There is nothing "balanced" in this equation. SaviC is the victim, period, and the only thing he needs to do now is get his money back from Gosh, in my humble opinion.

I think Alphaholic is the only one who understands my consternation in this matter and has actually taken the time to understand what i've posted. IMHO both parties could be culpable for the item going missing due to their actions in this matter. We as observers here do not have enough actual information to make a judgement call that could hurt either parties financial or forum status.

Also, some of you are making a mountain out of molehill about the customs form thing. That's a non-issue in this equation, folks. BF members have been doing that on their customs forms since the beginning of time. It is a completely unrelated issue and not worth getting worked up over. Yes, it's "wrong," but give it a rest already... it's not the issue at hand here and you know it.

Just because others do the wrong thing and have been getting away with it for a long time does not make the act right or proper. It is not unrelated to this issue and may well have a bearing on why the package is missing. We as observers here will never know until the parties involved focus themselves on providing proof to their claims here in the thread and work in unison to either find the package or settle the matter in an amicable and fair manner to both parties.

 

[SaviC]

Imagine you told someone who just sold you a knife to carefully hand it to you, slowly, tip back, with their left hand, extending their arm straight out. And instead of that, they use their right arm and throw it straight into a sewage pumping chamber. Do you think you should "stop bickering" and go look for it in that stinking cesspool?

You are absolutely right! The transaction has been very strongly complicated by an error of the seller. And I want very much to find this packet now - but without normal tracking information I don't have any possibility to do it!

 

[SaviC]

I think Alphaholic is the only one who understands my consternation in this matter and has actually taken the time to understand what i've posted. IMHO both parties could be culpable for the item going missing due to their actions in this matter. We as observers here do not have enough actual information to make a judgement call that could hurt either parties financial or forum status.

But if it would be Express mail - we would know the real heart of problem, which happened with the packet, isn't it? Actions of the seller have made so, that we can now only guess about a problem essence. He has complicated this deal - I don't see my fault in his error.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

IMHO both parties could be culpable for the item going missing due to their actions in this matter. We as observers here do not have enough actual information to make a judgement call that could hurt either parties financial or forum status.

Actually, we have all the information we need. They agreed to have the package mailed express, specifically because packages sent 1st Class can get lost internationally. The seller made a mistake and did not mail the package express... and it subsequently got lost. Your suggestion that SaviC should go to a customs office in the Ukraine and launch a one-man crusade to retrieve his package is laughable. You clearly don't know how things work in that part of the world. Which--I repeat--is the entire reason why SaviC demanded express mail service in the first place.

100% fault of the seller. Period.

 

[Handwrecker]

Waiting for me information to come forward. Starting to have doubts.

 

[Gastonknife]

Actually, we have all the information we need. They agreed to have the package mailed express, specifically because packages sent 1st Class can get lost internationally. The seller made a mistake and did not mail the package express... and it subsequently got lost. Your suggestion that SaviC should go to a customs office in the Ukraine and launch a one-man crusade to retrieve his package is laughable. You clearly don't know how things work in that part of the world. Which--I repeat--is the entire reason why SaviC demanded express mail service in the first place.

100% fault of the seller. Period.

correct all the facts needed are there - the customs declaration is irrelevant. First both agreed and second no way a customs person in Ukraine would ever know whether a knife is worth $100 or $1000 - that's just not going to happen - think about it.

 

[Mack]

correct all the facts needed are there - the customs declaration is irrelevant. First both agreed and second no way a customs person in Ukraine would ever know whether a knife is worth $100 or $1000 - that's just not going to happen - think about it.

When two people agree to commit a crime it does not lesson the crime it makes it a conspiracy. What I see here and I have no dog in this fiasco I'm simply watching, is that two people agreed to attempt to skirt the law and one of them or perhaps both screwed it up. Be thankful there are no legal payments to be made.
Both parties should learn their lesson and move on. Paypall made it's ruling on the financial part of it and now we know of perhaps two people to be wary of doing business with.
If you try to do something illegal and it goes wrong then who is to blame?
Just my devalued 2 cents but I see two people who both should have done the right thing and this wouldn't have happened.

 

[Gastonknife]

When two people agree to commit a crime it does not lesson the crime it makes it a conspiracy. What I see here and I have no dog in this fiasco I'm simply watching, is that two people agreed to attempt to skirt the law and one of them or perhaps both screwed it up. Be thankful there are no legal payments to be made.
Both parties should learn their lesson and move on. Paypall made it's ruling on the financial part of it and now we know of perhaps two people to be wary of doing business with.
If you try to do something illegal and it goes wrong then who is to blame?
Just my devalued 2 cents but I see two people who both should have done the right thing and this wouldn't have happened.

Ok so please explain how the customs declaration value is reponsible for the current situation. Pure speculation at best.
Did you not read all of the other facts were gosh failed. The facts remain that the failure of the seller to do all the things agreed with shipment and insurance is why this situation is what it is. I am not saying that declaring a lower customs value is the right thing - just that there is no proof that it is any issue in this situation. Even if it was - if it was shipped as agreed and paid for - it could be tracked and now it can't.

 

[Mack]

I'm saying that they agreed to try to skirt the law and failed. If Gosh had shipped it the other way and it had been dicovered and confiscated things would be exactly as they are today.
I suppose that Gosh may be responsible for the $100 to cover the insurance but I'm not convinced of it. Would insurance have paid if it was confiscated by the authorities?

 

[Gastonknife]

Perhaps I'll ask it a different way - How can you specifically say and know that customs is the issue here? What facts do you have that customs is holding it?

I'll send you $50 if you can prove that is the issue at this time based on the facts known..................
and how about you send me $50 if I can prove that Gosh did not send it the way specified agreed and paid, Josh failed to insure it despite being paid for such, and Gosh tried to pocket a little extra cash on the transactiona and now it's biting him in the butt???

Seems like there is a discrimination of international buyers by some here - which is not right.
Please circle back around and analyze the facts as to why it's known that this issue has developed.

 

[Mack]

I can't prove it nor does it matter to me. I have no clue what happened to the knife. If customs has it has nothing to do with anything in my opinion.
The fact that they were being devious is all that matters to me. If you are lying on the documents and something goes wrong then who is to blame?

 

[Karda]

Perhaps I'll ask it a different way - How can you specifically say and know that customs is the issue here? What facts do you have that customs is holding it?

How do we know customs isn't the issue?

Ive said this at least twice already.....
Unless BOTH posters are willing to post their EVIDENCE in this thread, we as observers can only SPECULATE.

 

[richard j]

I'm saying that they agreed to try to skirt the law and failed. If Gosh had shipped it the other way and it had been dicovered and confiscated things would be exactly as they are today.
I suppose that Gosh may be responsible for the $100 to cover the insurance but I'm not convinced of it. Would insurance have paid if it was confiscated by the authorities?

if the knife was confiscated by customs and not lost or stolen, the insurance probably would not have paid out. if it would have been properly shipped with insurance and still came up missing, savic would only get $100. for the knife anyways since it was his request to have it insured for that ammount to begin with.
i dont think it matters anymore how a knife is shipped. stuff gets lost and stolen all the time, insured or not.