Sir, you are so right! It's NOT the wild west anymore, ( I hear a lot of cops / people say that when i open carry in an open carry state) it's a Murica with FAR more violence, murder, rape, shootings, high crime and corruption, with waaaay more brutal killings, terrorism, looting, human trafficking, riots etc than the tame wild west ever thought about being, not counting the total disrespect for everything and family core break down. Wild west was a joke compared to today. We have corruption at the highest levels and 10 year old girls on their 2nd child by the stepdad. We are far worse off now. Id welcome the wild west back. At least then they didnt have Justin Beiber! I cannot bring a knife to work or anything that someone might think is a weapon. I keep any weapons out of the public eye best I can.
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How public are you with your knives?
- Thread starter AsianBeerCan
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What?
What is or is not legal is never really fixed. It's a matter of case law as much as it is legislation or regulation and of course, case law isn't 100% stable and can vary from judge to judge or court to court.
I think more precise understanding of what you've heard from LEOs is that according to their understanding of the law, your form of carry is legal or legal enough to not warrant an arrest. Another LEO in CA may see that differently and if the DA and Judge agree, then it won't be legal.
Laws are often vague and sometimes intentionally so.
Some reading here:
http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html (search for "concealed")
http://www.shouselaw.com/california-knife-laws.html#1
http://www.tulare-kings-attorney.com/blog/2012/december/knife-carry-laws-in-california/
It would appear that the phrase "suspended from the waist of the wearer" is key.
CRKDMike
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The key is carrying multiple knives for different situations :thumbup:
I use the blade on my Leatherman Squirt when it is appropriate. Then I usually carry one larger knife for use when my happiness is the only thing that matters, and one mid-size knife for any other situation.
So, three knives is best to achieve the perfect tool for the environment. If I need to cut a few pieces of tape for a co-worker in the office, I am not going to use my Medford Marauder, or my BRKT Bravo II. Also, if I am going to baton wood, I am not going to use my Leatherman squirt blade either.
Using an appropriate tool in the appropriate setting is nothing to worry about. It is when you bring a machete to the city to open mail with that you will stick out like a mad man, and (at least in this city) you could have it confiscated.
I use the blade on my Leatherman Squirt when it is appropriate. Then I usually carry one larger knife for use when my happiness is the only thing that matters, and one mid-size knife for any other situation.
So, three knives is best to achieve the perfect tool for the environment. If I need to cut a few pieces of tape for a co-worker in the office, I am not going to use my Medford Marauder, or my BRKT Bravo II. Also, if I am going to baton wood, I am not going to use my Leatherman squirt blade either.
Using an appropriate tool in the appropriate setting is nothing to worry about. It is when you bring a machete to the city to open mail with that you will stick out like a mad man, and (at least in this city) you could have it confiscated.
Case law- the People of California v. Alfredo. S.
A police officer spotted Mr Alfredo on the street and claimed that he saw 1 inch of knife sheath protruding below Mr. Alfredo's shirt. There was a fixed-blade in the sheath. Mr. Alfredo was arrested for concealed carry of a "dirk or dagger". In court Mr. Alfredo said that the entire sheath was visible.
Mr. Alfredo was convicted, but the conviction was overturned when the Appeals Court ruled that due to the visible portion of the sheath the knife was NOT concealed. And that decision was based in part on the testimony of a police officer who claimed that only 1 inch of the sheath was visible.
There is absolutely nothing in the actual California penal code that says how much of a knife must be visible in order for it to not be considered "concealed". It doesn't say what percentage of the knife must be visible.
There is other case law, I forget the case at the moment, but the Appeals Court determined that for a prosecutor to obtain a sustainable conviction on a count of carrying a concealed dirk or dagger they must prove that the defendant was intentionally attempting to hide the knife from view and prevent law enforcement from knowing that the defendant had a knife.
As for my personal experience here in California (San Diego), I used to carry an Entrek Cobra in a back-pocket sheath with only the handle visible. Not a single police officer or Sheriffs deputy who saw it ever had an issue with it.
I eventually stopped carry a fixed-blade in a back-pocket sheath, and instead started carrying it fully visible on my belt. And that's how I carry it today. Personally, I wouldn't carry a fixed-blade the same way that Charlie Mike does, because I wouldn't want to take another trip to jail just because a cop thought the knife was concealed. But that's just my personal concern and I would not tell someone that it is illegal to carry a knife in such a manner, because there is nothing in California law, either the penal code or case law, that says it is illegal.
Spot on. It would appear that the CA law is vague on this point, leaving the situation up for interpretation by the LEO, DA and Judge involved.
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True, but the law is written vague on purpose which makes it open to discretion of the officer who sees it. Same goes for intent. Mr. Alvarado in this case was let off after being convicted of a *felony*. I'm sure time he lost due to his arrest, name printed in the paper, bail fees, lawyer fees, and time going to court was not worth the minor victory. I'm telling him what my lawyer, many police officers, and also many customers who have had issues with this have told me. I'm not using random info off the top of my head. Any lawyer will tell you the knife laws in California are extremely vague and open to interpretation. I've had cops tell me that knives over 3" are illegal too. Best thing to do is not take your chances.
PS to the mods. I saw the post asking to not discuss laws, but I did so because I wanted to inform people of what I know about this subject. I don't want people to read this and assume carrying in this way is OK when it can quite possibly lead to their arrest and very expensive, time consuming trial.
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Just to further complicate matters, don't forget that in addition to the state laws there are also local ordinances which may contradict them, and officers may be poorly informed.
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Would a firearm carried in a manner constant for a gun (as compared to a knife in the CM case) be considered concealed? I doubt it personally. But who wants to go to court and go through all the worry, time, expense involved unless you butt is totally on the line for a felony. That conviction changes most everything. Oddly, felons can carry knives, so that is a bit of a oxymoron.
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If any part of a firearm is exposed, you can possibly be charged with brandishing. Concealed means concealed. The cop is searching you and finds a fixed blade that he previously was not aware of.
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Concealed means concealed. Yep. A firearm in a holster is likely not to be interpreted as brandishing unless for some screwy reason you picked the holster up (say a pocket holster) and pointed the gun at person in a threatening manner. In TN, the concealed handgun regulation (law I guess) specifically allows for glimpses of firearms not to be considered as it not being concealed. This is the part where people interpret open carry as legal in this state if you have the handgun carry permit.
I open carry usually for a specific reason and that is usually in the more lawless, higher crime portions of the city where I simply want these people to stay the hell away from me when I'm working. I don't live in one of those areas. There is a gang problem in my area.
I agree with you on some points, like not to test the law where it is vague. But I disagree with what you said about the knife laws in California being extremely vague and open to interpretation. Some are, but many are not, and there is a lot of case law in California that clarifies our knife laws.
As for lawyers, I've had several defense attorney's in my employment. After an act of self-defense I was charged with some serious felonies and ended up going to prison on a conviction for assault with a deadly weapon. As a knife enthusiast, someone who carries knives, and as someone who doesn't want to go back to prison, I made it a point to know any and all California knife laws that might pertain to me, and my current attorney has provided me with an extensive education on the matter along with lots of advice. I have a strong incentive to know my local knife laws inside and out, because if I am arrested, as a felon I would face much more severe punishment than someone with no record. For me, a conviction for carrying a concealed dirk or dagger would be a guaranteed trip back to prison.
Whether or not Charlie Mike will ever be arrested for carrying a knife in the manner he does is something that no one can predict. What is known however, is that nowhere in California law is there anything that specifically defines what "concealed upon the person" (CA pc 21310) means when it comes to the concealed carry of fixed-blades. I personally wouldn't want to take the chance, and several times on this forum I have advised other Californians to wear their fixed-blades completely out in the open and in such a way that it would be impossible for an article of clothing to cover it, or for a cop to view it as concealed, but Charlie Mike is a grown man, with personal knowledge of the California criminal justice system, so he's fully capable of making his own informed decision on the matter.
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In CA, open carry (gun) is not allowed. That's where brandishing can be applied if you break concealment.
So here's the thing; I don't think using a knife in public is disrespectful of my surroundings. I'm not threatening with my knives. I'm not that guy. In fact, being threatening with a knife is actually illegal where I live.
Yeah, I've raised my eyebrow at things people have done in public. That does not make me a hypocrite and here's why: I don't think my opinion should have anything to do with what they're doing. If I see someone doing something I don't like, I just make a mental note to not do that thing myself. I don't expect them to bend to my will (I'm not saying you do). Their freedom is just as important as mine so long as nobody is getting hurt.
I still don't see any problem with people using knives responsibly in public. If that scares someone else whose fault is it really? Some people are terrified of cars. Others are afraid of dogs. Some are (rightfully IMHO) terrified of mullets. We still allow all these things in public and we don't look down on those who bring them there (except maybe the mullets).
Live and let live.
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That the "item was substantially concealed" doesn't mean that the weapon must be completely concealed for it to be a crime. *"A defendant need not be totally successful in concealing a dirk to be guilty..."19
As long as the weapon is at least partially concealed, you could be held liable for this offense. *Along these same lines, as long as the weapon itself is at least partially concealed in a case or by some other means, it is irrelevant if the weapon is still identifiable.20
http://www.shouselaw.com/dirk-dagger.html#3
Again, posting for clarity on a confusing issue to aid others in not getting in trouble by publicly carrying a knife as it pertains to Southern California law.
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So here's the thing; I don't think using a knife in public is disrespectful of my surroundings. I'm not threatening with my knives. I'm not that guy. In fact, being threatening with a knife is actually illegal where I live.
Yeah, I've raised my eyebrow at things people have done in public. That does not make me a hypocrite and here's why: I don't think my opinion should have anything to do with what they're doing. If I see someone doing something I don't like, I just make a mental note to not do that thing myself. I don't expect them to bend to my will (I'm not saying you do). Their freedom is just as important as mine so long as nobody is getting hurt.
I still don't see any problem with people using knives responsibly in public. If that scares someone else whose fault is it really? Some people are terrified of cars. Others are afraid of dogs. Some are (rightfully IMHO) terrified of mullets. We still allow all these things in public and we don't look down on those who bring them there (except maybe the mullets).
Live and let live.
It all just depends for most of the things you mentioned. It's situational, common courtesy, and common sense.
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As for me, I use my knives like I'd use a cellphone or any other item in public. I think concealing the fact you are using one is more suspicious then using it naturally. That doesn't mean I flick it out as hard as I can, twirl it around my hand, and cut something so bad, it withes it wasn't cut so bad lol 
. Yes, some people don't like seeing it, but that's their own insecurity, which is most likely caused largely in part by perpetuating the stereotype of the knife as a weapon by the very action of being intentionally low key. You can argue statistics all day of "x% of assaults used a knife, while those who died by firearms was x%" all I have to say is, that's superfluous info when you consider 100% of those crimes were caused by a crazy person, regardless of the implement used. Also, using a knife is a right bestowed to me. If you want to "support the troops" do so by exercising your rights that they have granted and defended so vigorously. We do things all day long that are much more dangerous, yet they are commonplace so we think nothing of it, like driving a car. Same applies, as long as you're not turning over the tires and cutting off traffic, you're fine. It's all in the manner it's used, and I choose to use mine naturally as a tool and ignore hypersensitivity to the subject.
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. Yes, some people don't like seeing it, but that's their own insecurity, which is most likely caused largely in part by perpetuating the stereotype of the knife as a weapon by the very action of being intentionally low key. You can argue statistics all day of "x% of assaults used a knife, while those who died by firearms was x%" all I have to say is, that's superfluous info when you consider 100% of those crimes were caused by a crazy person, regardless of the implement used. Also, using a knife is a right bestowed to me. If you want to "support the troops" do so by exercising your rights that they have granted and defended so vigorously. We do things all day long that are much more dangerous, yet they are commonplace so we think nothing of it, like driving a car. Same applies, as long as you're not turning over the tires and cutting off traffic, you're fine. It's all in the manner it's used, and I choose to use mine naturally as a tool and ignore hypersensitivity to the subject.Sent from my 2PS64 using Tapatalk
KingMC
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I carry my folders clipped in my pocket, and pull them out when I feel they are necessary. Most of the time that doesn't happen, so most of the time they stay in my pocket all day without going anywhere. When I go to a controlled public space (museum, amusement park, concert hall, etc. ) I will remove the knives from my pocket and either leave them at home or store them in the car. My knives are not for defense, so I don't feel the need to carry them whenever I might be in danger, I only carry them as tools and as such they can be left behind as needed. I don't carry other tools around, knives are no different in my eyes.
Something to mention: I have unarmed self-defense training, which is why I'm not relying on knives to defend myself. I don't blame some who carry as self-defense, but for most people folders are quite useless (due to lack of training) and will often escalate a conflict into dangerous and/or fatal levels.
Something to mention: I have unarmed self-defense training, which is why I'm not relying on knives to defend myself. I don't blame some who carry as self-defense, but for most people folders are quite useless (due to lack of training) and will often escalate a conflict into dangerous and/or fatal levels.
`br4dz-
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So here's the thing; I don't think using a knife in public is disrespectful of my surroundings. I'm not threatening with my knives. I'm not that guy. In fact, being threatening with a knife is actually illegal where I live.
Yeah, I've raised my eyebrow at things people have done in public. That does not make me a hypocrite and here's why: I don't think my opinion should have anything to do with what they're doing. If I see someone doing something I don't like, I just make a mental note to not do that thing myself. I don't expect them to bend to my will (I'm not saying you do). Their freedom is just as important as mine so long as nobody is getting hurt.
I still don't see any problem with people using knives responsibly in public. If that scares someone else whose fault is it really? Some people are terrified of cars. Others are afraid of dogs. Some are (rightfully IMHO) terrified of mullets. We still allow all these things in public and we don't look down on those who bring them there (except maybe the mullets).
Live and let live.
At least we found a common ground, finally.
I work in a bookstore, well known national chain. I regularly carry both a SAK (Swiss Champ for all the blades) and a custom folder, clipped in my right side pocket, which is visible.
It is a regular occurrence that I need to open boxes. Use the folder for that, and it is a one hand opener. I am in a very liberal area, but I've never had a problem. It helps that my folder has a Damascus blade and scrimshaw handles, it looks like a gentleman's knife, and not at all tactical. I am lying I had a half problem once, where a customer complained I was using a 'switchblade' to open boxes, but showing the knife to boss, she said it wasn't trouble, and I often share my nice custom with folks that have a knife showing.
My boss also knows I carry a great SAK, and often calls on me, when something breaks.
So yeah, I never have too much of a problem with knives at work, again I carry a fancy looking knife, and a SAK both of which are non-threatening.
It is a regular occurrence that I need to open boxes. Use the folder for that, and it is a one hand opener. I am in a very liberal area, but I've never had a problem. It helps that my folder has a Damascus blade and scrimshaw handles, it looks like a gentleman's knife, and not at all tactical. I am lying I had a half problem once, where a customer complained I was using a 'switchblade' to open boxes, but showing the knife to boss, she said it wasn't trouble, and I often share my nice custom with folks that have a knife showing.
My boss also knows I carry a great SAK, and often calls on me, when something breaks.
So yeah, I never have too much of a problem with knives at work, again I carry a fancy looking knife, and a SAK both of which are non-threatening.
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