How strong is the Liner lock for Spyderco Military?

[Josh K]

Come on man, a thin tip will never be as strong as a thick tip, no matter how you use your knives.

The only absolute here is that a thin tip is not as strong as a thicker tip, assuming the same materials, dimensions, and geometry.

4x4's and popsicle sticks. Sure, a thinner tip won't be as strong as a thicker tip. Just like popsicle sticks aren't as strong as 4x4's. However, the materials you use depends on what you're building.

Again, for clarity: you are saying that to you the strength of a thin or thick tip doesn't matter.Ok, point granted, but are you also you saying that this should be same for everybody because it's true with you?

No, I'm not saying that.

However, it seems like some people agree, otherwise the Military would have a thicker tip.

 

[5.56]

The Miliary is a highly efficient cutting tool for our troops. Prying, digging, hammering activity (which usually dulls the edge) is what your "issued duty weapon" is for.
sal

I'm just going to quote Sal again for posterity.

 

[Bill1170]

I really like my Military, but the Para 2 is just about the perfect folder....if you really need the extra blade lenght go for the Mil, but consider the Para 2 if you don't.

I agree with this. Wonderful blade, wonderful lock, wonderful handle.

 

[singularity35]

Sure, a thinner tip won't be as strong as a thicker tip.

There ya go! wasn't so hard was it?

No, I'm not saying that.

What are you saying then?

However, it seems like some people agree, otherwise the Military would have a thicker tip.

I do in fact agree, that the military is fine as it is. I've said that a number of times. And I've also said a number of times that, since the blade tip is thin, the military is not hard use and that's all I've been saying too. I haven't been saying that I want a thicker tip on the military. If I carry a slicer, I carry a hard use knife as well so I'm covered in case I need a frying pan.

 

[Josh K]

What are you saying then?

but are you also you saying that this should be same for everybody because it's true with you?

That is what I'm not saying.

I do in fact agree, that the military is fine as it is. I've said that a number of times. And I've also said a number of times that, since the blade tip is thin, the military is not hard use.

I disagree, but whatever.

 

[singularity35]

I disagree, but whatever.

Actually I'm not trying to convince you. I just wanted you to stop trying to convince me.

In the end this is what we must each do, believe as you we want and do as we want. We just need to respect other's views in the course of expressing our views. We should not call a disagreeing point of view stupid or nonsense. And enjoy the journey.

 

[giant1]

I'm thinking about buying the Spyderco Military, but had a few concerns and questions. First of all when is the newer Military 2 coming out, if soon I'll wait. Is it worth the wait? Secondly, How strong is the liner lock on the Military? Thirdly, Is the liner locking mechanism the same as other liner locks or is it better and if so, how? Thanks in advance for any help. Mike

The millie is a fine knife but it's not the folder I would go to for hard use. The liner lock is too thin for my liking and the blade shape makes a brilliant slicer but also too thin for hard use. The Ti fixes the liner lock issue but has the same blade shape / design.

There are better choices if you want a "HARD USE" folder.

 

[wongKI]

The millie is not a hard-use folder, but the light weight, ease of cleaning and awesome blade make it my go-to outdoor folder.

The lock is very cleverly engineered-it helps the knife itself become more lightweight, and it's very strong and secure for a 1mm thick piece of steel.

As to the "tip question", if the Military had a thicker tip, I would never have bought it. I enjoy the ease of piercing afforded by the fine tip, and have had occasion to use it far more often (about twelve times that fine-ness was critical, to NONE that strength was) than I would have a stronger tip (such as that on my Gayle Bradley).

For example, I needed to pierce a tent sheet. A thicker tip would have been disastrous-the hole would have been far larger than required. The Mili's tip did an excellent job of it. Even better than the SAK's needle, which is saying quite a lot, as I only used the Mili after having loaned out the SAK.

(I needed to do a quick and dirty re-stitch of a couple of stitches, and the SAK was on loan to a guy across the campsite)

 

[Sal Glesser]

I think some clarification of definition might help. This is just my opinion, of course. I’ll try to include some history for the “younger afi’s”. No doubt some will disagree with me. That's ok. My credentials are sound.

The first “Hard Use” production folder was probably Al Buck’s “110” in the mid 60’s.

The intent was to create a folding knife that could take on many of the pressures put on a fixed blade knife but be easier to carry. The knife had the ability to cut harder to cut materials and deal with difficult environments. The blade was thicker than “normal” folders, (fairly fine tip though). The lock was strong and exceptional steel (stainless 440C) was used to be able to cut the harder to cut materials. Pete Gerber followed with his folders, also made with exceptional steel. Al Mar began producing hard use knives with exceptional steels. Al also had a military background which influenced his designs.

Chris Reeve and Spyderco made hard use folders in the early 80’s. They were using better steels, strong locks and tough handles, many of these earlier hard use folders are still in service. In the mid 80’s a number of companies also began producing knives intended to go through tougher materials.

(“Hard use” is a marketing term that was created far later than the designs. The same is true of “tactical”).

Chris was using Titanium for his handles and he invented a new type of lock which proved to take impact well. The Reeve Integral Lock (often called a “frame-lock”) has “enjoyed” much attention. These were designed and built for hard use.

Then along comes Mick Strider. Here we have a knuckle dragging knife maker making knives for knuckle draggers. That sounds good to me. He said; What if I have to abuse my knife. What if I have to pry with it, or twist or dig, maybe hammer? Prying, digging and hammering with a knife is no longer “hard use”, it is “abuse”. Mick’s knives were made for abuse.

Another knuckle dragger, Ken onion, chimed in with the ZT line. Again, the knives were designed and built for abuse. Lynn Thompson was another that creates knives to be abused. First he made fixed blades and later with folders. These were also designed and built to take abuse.

It is interesting to note that some of these designers paid special attention to using exceptional steels. They usually used the best steels available at the time. They also used edge geometries that were more abuse friendly. The theory being; if you are going to pry, dig and hammer with your knife, these activities are very hard on the edge and once the edge is gone, what you have left is a folding club. Generally, exceptional steel will perform better and last longer.

I question the theory that a “lesser” steel can be easily sharpened. If you are not carrying a pry-bar, a shovel, or a hammer, you are not likely carrying a sharpening stone.

With that in mind, our Military model was designed to be a light weight, strong cutting tool and I guarantee it will poke and cut with the best of the “hard use” and “abuse” folders, and probably better. It was not designed or built for abuse.

We have had many of our troops write to us thanking us for making the model that saved their booty when needed. They had it with them because it was light weight and easy to carry. When we create a knife for our troops, law enforcement or emergency personnel (SAS – Save And Serve), we are very serious about cutting performance and reliability.

Perhaps some think that there is only one way to design and build a knife? Or that their definition of usage is the only one there is? Perhaps they can show me the knives they’ve designed and produced and we can discuss the merits and drawbacks of their design? There are ALWAYS trade-offs in design. Weight, performance, price, etc.

I will say that there seems to be a growing demand for folding abuse knives and we have several on the drawing board. They are being designed and built to take abuse. But they will not likely be able to cut and poke with the efficiency of the thinner Military blade nor will they be as light.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

 

[Ankerson]

I think some clarification of definition might help. This is just my opinion, of course. I’ll try to include some history for the “younger afi’s”. No doubt some will disagree with me. That's ok. My credentials are sound.

The first “Hard Use” production folder was probably Al Buck’s “110” in the mid 60’s.

The intent was to create a folding knife that could take on many of the pressures put on a fixed blade knife but be easier to carry. The knife had the ability to cut harder to cut materials and deal with difficult environments. The blade was thicker than “normal” folders, (fairly fine tip though). The lock was strong and exceptional steel (stainless 440C) was used to be able to cut the harder to cut materials. Pete Gerber followed with his folders, also made with exceptional steel. Al Mar began producing hard use knives with exceptional steels. Al also had a military background which influenced his designs.

Chris Reeve and Spyderco made hard use folders in the early 80’s. They were using better steels, strong locks and tough handles, many of these earlier hard use folders are still in service. In the mid 80’s a number of companies also began producing knives intended to go through tougher materials.

(“Hard use” is a marketing term that was created far later than the designs. The same is true of “tactical&#8221.

Chris was using Titanium for his handles and he invented a new type of lock which proved to take impact well. The Reeve Integral Lock (often called a “frame-lock&#8221 has “enjoyed” much attention. These were designed and built for hard use.

Then along comes Mick Strider. Here we have a knuckle dragging knife maker making knives for knuckle draggers. That sounds good to me. He said; What if I have to abuse my knife. What if I have to pry with it, or twist or dig, maybe hammer? Prying, digging and hammering with a knife is no longer “hard use”, it is “abuse”. Mick’s knives were made for abuse.

Another knuckle dragger, Ken onion, chimed in with the ZT line. Again, the knives were designed and built for abuse. Lynn Thompson was another that creates knives to be abused. First he made fixed blades and later with folders. These were also designed and built to take abuse.

It is interesting to note that some of these designers paid special attention to using exceptional steels. They usually used the best steels available at the time. They also used edge geometries that were more abuse friendly. The theory being; if you are going to pry, dig and hammer with your knife, these activities are very hard on the edge and once the edge is gone, what you have left is a folding club. Generally, exceptional steel will perform better and last longer.

I question the theory that a “lesser” steel can be easily sharpened. If you are not carrying a pry-bar, a shovel, or a hammer, you are not likely carrying a sharpening stone.

With that in mind, our Military model was designed to be a light weight, strong cutting tool and I guarantee it will poke and cut with the best of the “hard use” and “abuse” folders, and probably better. It was not designed or built for abuse.

We have had many of our troops write to us thanking us for making the model that saved their booty when needed. They had it with them because it was light weight and easy to carry. When we create a knife for our troops, law enforcement or emergency personnel (SAS – Save And Serve), we are very serious about cutting performance and reliability.

Perhaps some think that there is only one way to design and build a knife? Or that their definition of usage is the only one there is? Perhaps they can show me the knives they’ve designed and produced and we can discuss the merits and drawbacks of their design? There are ALWAYS trade-offs in design. Weight, performance, price, etc.

I will say that there seems to be a growing demand for folding abuse knives and we have several on the drawing board. They are being designed and built to take abuse. But they will not likely be able to cut and poke with the efficiency of the thinner Military blade nor will they be as light.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

I totally agree Sal. :thumbup:

Personally I don't think it could have been explained better than you did.

 

[panicotr]

Supurb, logical response from the source.
I will not trade slicing/cutting ability for a thicker blade.
To return to the Military lock (mine is an orange handle S-30V), it is rock solid and totally dependable.

 

[STR]

When SUV's first started showing up in auto markets many manufacturers didn't see it as anything but a passing fad and a waste of time. Some (Lincoln) even went so far as to say they'd never make one but yet the market was too appealing in the end and they not only made one but variations of them in different sizes and even changed their policy some to add a truck that could walk both into the SUV and pick up category. It surprised a lot of folks when Lincoln decided to do this.

Some said that it was stupid for Lincoln to get into an area they knew little about that was outside their specialty and suggested they stick with what they knew best which was luxury cars and just leave this fad to others but the SUV appeal and versatility won out. Fortunately the Lincoln SUV is nice even if it is somewhat of a compromise for 'real abuse'. I have one of the Lincolns, (Navigator) that I've owned for some time now and quite frankly its the best thing on four wheels if you ask me but the point is that for a long time Spyderco has been the leader in edge and blade geometry showing others just how to do it right and why better steel is really better if you properly use it and to me thats what they are both best at and known for showing by example just what a steel can do if its used properly with a proper and well executed distal taper, and good point in a thinner slicing profile. Anyone can sharpen a pry bar up.

I'm confident its possible and curious as to the resulting knives when and if they come about. Immediate questions come up like if these 'abuse rated models' will have a separate and different warranty from the usual line up of Spyderco knives along with some other things like lock type? Price point higher or lower since less work is really involved in making a sharpened pry bar vs a properly ground distal taper and thin tip? It seems with many that just because its an abuse knife that it also means fit and finish need not be as good and that it even justifies leaving it rough as a plus point. Break down for cleaning, blade steel and so on.

Anyway, Sal, just be sure that if you tread into unfamiliar water that may be over your head since you've not really gone there before that you know how to swim. I hope that doesn't come off as being a smart a$$. Its not my intent. I'm just saying. A lot of us actually like to slice with the knives we carry and use and we appreciate Spyderco for their expertise which is grind geometry for actual cutting jobs not digging fox holes!

However, if you do make an abuse rated model though, I suggest you call the first model the Spyderco A for three reasons, one to signify the first, two to signify ABUSE rated, and three for "Ankerson"

STR

 

[walleyeguy7]

the liner lock is fantastic, the fine piercing and slicing tip is fantastic. i wouldnt have it any other way. all of you "hard use knife" buffs can keep them, ill stick to what i call my "optimal cutting knives". everybody has their own preferences, but cutting as well as possible while still being practically strong is one of many, many things that are important to me on my expensive knives. and dont try to tell me the military is too weak to be practical, lol!

 

[Ankerson]

the liner lock is fantastic, the fine piercing and slicing tip is fantastic. i wouldnt have it any other way. all of you "hard use knife" buffs can keep them, ill stick to what i call my "optimal cutting knives". everybody has their own preferences, but cutting as well as possible while still being practically strong is one of many, many things that are important to me on my expensive knives. and dont try to tell me the military is too weak to be practical, lol!

Some of us own a variety of knives suited for different purposes...

I own both Slicers and Tanks, they each have their place.

Just don't try and tell me the HD folders can't slice or cut because they can.

 

[JNewell]

Wicked great post!

Part of the problem with these discussions is that there are no objective definitions for reference. What is "hard use"? What is "abuse"?

There is also frequent confusion between "hard use"/"abuse" as applied to blades as distinguished from the application of those terms to locks. It's obviously possible to have a very sturdy lock with a relatively non-abusable blade (the Military seems a good example of this).

I think some clarification of definition might help. This is just my opinion, of course. I’ll try to include some history for the “younger afi’s”. No doubt some will disagree with me. That's ok. My credentials are sound.

The first “Hard Use” production folder was probably Al Buck’s “110” in the mid 60’s.

The intent was to create a folding knife that could take on many of the pressures put on a fixed blade knife but be easier to carry. The knife had the ability to cut harder to cut materials and deal with difficult environments. The blade was thicker than “normal” folders, (fairly fine tip though). The lock was strong and exceptional steel (stainless 440C) was used to be able to cut the harder to cut materials. Pete Gerber followed with his folders, also made with exceptional steel. Al Mar began producing hard use knives with exceptional steels. Al also had a military background which influenced his designs.

Chris Reeve and Spyderco made hard use folders in the early 80’s. They were using better steels, strong locks and tough handles, many of these earlier hard use folders are still in service. In the mid 80’s a number of companies also began producing knives intended to go through tougher materials.

(“Hard use” is a marketing term that was created far later than the designs. The same is true of “tactical”).

Chris was using Titanium for his handles and he invented a new type of lock which proved to take impact well. The Reeve Integral Lock (often called a “frame-lock”) has “enjoyed” much attention. These were designed and built for hard use.

Then along comes Mick Strider. Here we have a knuckle dragging knife maker making knives for knuckle draggers. That sounds good to me. He said; What if I have to abuse my knife. What if I have to pry with it, or twist or dig, maybe hammer? Prying, digging and hammering with a knife is no longer “hard use”, it is “abuse”. Mick’s knives were made for abuse.

Another knuckle dragger, Ken onion, chimed in with the ZT line. Again, the knives were designed and built for abuse. Lynn Thompson was another that creates knives to be abused. First he made fixed blades and later with folders. These were also designed and built to take abuse.

It is interesting to note that some of these designers paid special attention to using exceptional steels. They usually used the best steels available at the time. They also used edge geometries that were more abuse friendly. The theory being; if you are going to pry, dig and hammer with your knife, these activities are very hard on the edge and once the edge is gone, what you have left is a folding club. Generally, exceptional steel will perform better and last longer.

I question the theory that a “lesser” steel can be easily sharpened. If you are not carrying a pry-bar, a shovel, or a hammer, you are not likely carrying a sharpening stone.

With that in mind, our Military model was designed to be a light weight, strong cutting tool and I guarantee it will poke and cut with the best of the “hard use” and “abuse” folders, and probably better. It was not designed or built for abuse.

We have had many of our troops write to us thanking us for making the model that saved their booty when needed. They had it with them because it was light weight and easy to carry. When we create a knife for our troops, law enforcement or emergency personnel (SAS – Save And Serve), we are very serious about cutting performance and reliability.

Perhaps some think that there is only one way to design and build a knife? Or that their definition of usage is the only one there is? Perhaps they can show me the knives they’ve designed and produced and we can discuss the merits and drawbacks of their design? There are ALWAYS trade-offs in design. Weight, performance, price, etc.

I will say that there seems to be a growing demand for folding abuse knives and we have several on the drawing board. They are being designed and built to take abuse. But they will not likely be able to cut and poke with the efficiency of the thinner Military blade nor will they be as light.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

 

[STR]

Some of us own a variety of knives suited for different purposes...

I own both Slicers and Tanks, they each have their place.

I think what people really want is the SUV in knives. A knife that can walk all categories enough to fit anywhere. That seems to be the mind set today. I want a SUV I can take on the trails, zip from one stop light to another in like I could in my sports car, haul a ton of stuff like my short bed pick up, pull the boat like my truck, and take to church on Sundays picking up the kids from school all week to drive them to their homes and bring my groceries back home with my own kids.

The gents hard use slicing pry tool in a light weight rust free offering bringing super edge keeping and a fantastic warranty to the table! When you stop to think about it Spyderco already does this pretty well. Don't fix what ain't broken. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the fact that my new Demko Custom could pry all day and slice but the trade off is a dang heavy knife. So yeah I have a mack truck in my pocket but its not exactly practical. To me the Para 2 walks both sides of the street just enough to make it a first choice as it is with no further changes needed. Just my opinion though. :thumbup:

STR

 

[walleyeguy7]

Some of us own a variety of knives suited for different purposes...

I own both Slicers and Tanks, they each have their place.

as i said, you can keep them. i have a very, very small budget as an in-debt college student, and i own very few and relatively "cheap" knives to satisfy my lust. i am a forestry major at iowa state university, and half of my courses involve getting out there and managing forest ecosystems. i can tell you i do not go out of my way to use knives on a daily basis, but i do use have the opportunity to carry and use my orange military close to 99% more often than my ka bar heavy bowie 9", my gransfors bruk scandinavian forest axe, and even my ~4" blade companion knife that i made with the guidance of master iowa cutler dave larson. even if i was not a broke college student i would not own anything as "standard" as a sebenza. knife appreciating is far from my only hobby, and i dont get any value out of a busse nffbm. that is my situation.

 

[Ankerson]

I think what people really want is the SUV in knives. A knife that can walk all categories enough to fit anywhere. That seems to be the mind set today. I want a SUV I can take on the trails, zip from one stop light to another in like I could in my sports car, haul a ton of stuff like my short bed pick up, pull the boat like my truck, and take to church on Sundays picking up the kids from school all week to drive them to their homes and bring my groceries back home with my own kids.

The gents hard use slicing pry tool in a light weight rust free offering bringing super edge keeping and a fantastic warranty to the table! When you stop to think about it Spyderco already does this pretty well. Don't fix what ain't broken. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the fact that my new Demko Custom could pry all day and slice but the trade off is a dang heavy knife. So yeah I have a mack truck in my pocket but its not exactly practical. To me the Para 2 walks both sides of the street just enough to make it a first choice as it is with no further changes needed. Just my opinion though. :thumbup:

STR

That's true.

I carry different knives depending on what I want to do or expect to do that day.

I too love my Demko and yes it will take a ton of abuse and ask for more, but it does weigh 7.8 ounces so I don't carry it all the time. It will slice like a razor though while still being incredibly strong.

I think the Military is one of those knives that is almost there, almost perfect, almost Heavy Duty, almost the SUV of knives, it drives me crazy to think how perfect it could really be with just a few small adjustments.

The lock is very strong, the build is excellent, but the blade is too thin for really hard tasks. The steel is very tough, S30V will take a ton of abuse, shock etc. They just thinned it out too much and tapered the blade too thin towards the point to take any kind of prying. It wouldn't take that much to beef up the blade to stand some abuse and prying and still be an excellent slicer. They could either keep the FFG or go hollow grind while beefing up the tip enough to take some real hard use etc. It's like they took a Hummer H2 and put 13" wheels on it with bias ply tires or Took my Demko and put an SAK blade in it.

I know the Military will pass my Hard Use Testing format with ease except the tip will snap off.

That's just my opinion though on it.

 

[JohnnyO]

Excellent post Sal. I have some pretty strong folders, Socom Elite II, SEB, SERE 2000, ect. What do I end up carrying every day? My Paramilitary. Why, because it is light and cuts well. :thumbup:

If I want a pry bar I'll buy an inexpensive pry bar and carry a knife that cuts well. The weight of both will equal out and I'll have the best tool for the job, either way.

 

[stabman]

Other than prying, the tip on the Military will hold up fine.
Stabbing trees? Check.
Cutting through 0.125" plastic? Check.
Cutting meat, including sausages? Check.
Stabbing through thick cardboard to make cutting it easier? Check.

It isn't a hammer or a prybar, but guess what? I don't NEED hammers or prybars very often.
And if I did, a knife (of ANY sort) makes a piss-poor hammer or prybar; true story.