How strong is the Liner lock for Spyderco Military?

I know the Military will pass my Hard Use Testing format with ease except the tip will snap off. That's just my opinion though on it. :)

I agree on tip snap plus if you baton, I bet the linerlock will slide all the way over too. When are you going to test it Jim?
 
I agree on tip snap plus if you baton, I bet the linerlock will slide all the way over too. When are you going to test it Jim?

I'm not going to get one to test just to snap off the tip on a + $100 knife, the lock is very good though and would hold up fine.

I had 2 of them in the past so I have a very good idea what it will do. :)

I do have a Para 2 on order, but not to put though my format.
 
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I think some clarification of definition might help. This is just my opinion, of course. I’ll try to include some history for the “younger afi’s”. No doubt some will disagree with me. That's ok. My credentials are sound.

The first “Hard Use” production folder was probably Al Buck’s “110” in the mid 60’s.

The intent was to create a folding knife that could take on many of the pressures put on a fixed blade knife but be easier to carry. The knife had the ability to cut harder to cut materials and deal with difficult environments. The blade was thicker than “normal” folders, (fairly fine tip though). The lock was strong and exceptional steel (stainless 440C) was used to be able to cut the harder to cut materials. Pete Gerber followed with his folders, also made with exceptional steel. Al Mar began producing hard use knives with exceptional steels. Al also had a military background which influenced his designs.

Chris Reeve and Spyderco made hard use folders in the early 80’s. They were using better steels, strong locks and tough handles, many of these earlier hard use folders are still in service. In the mid 80’s a number of companies also began producing knives intended to go through tougher materials.

(“Hard use” is a marketing term that was created far later than the designs. The same is true of “tactical”).

Chris was using Titanium for his handles and he invented a new type of lock which proved to take impact well. The Reeve Integral Lock (often called a “frame-lock”) has “enjoyed” much attention. These were designed and built for hard use.

Then along comes Mick Strider. Here we have a knuckle dragging knife maker making knives for knuckle draggers. That sounds good to me. He said; What if I have to abuse my knife. What if I have to pry with it, or twist or dig, maybe hammer? Prying, digging and hammering with a knife is no longer “hard use”, it is “abuse”. Mick’s knives were made for abuse.

Another knuckle dragger, Ken onion, chimed in with the ZT line. Again, the knives were designed and built for abuse. Lynn Thompson was another that creates knives to be abused. First he made fixed blades and later with folders. These were also designed and built to take abuse.

It is interesting to note that some of these designers paid special attention to using exceptional steels. They usually used the best steels available at the time. They also used edge geometries that were more abuse friendly. The theory being; if you are going to pry, dig and hammer with your knife, these activities are very hard on the edge and once the edge is gone, what you have left is a folding club. Generally, exceptional steel will perform better and last longer.

I question the theory that a “lesser” steel can be easily sharpened. If you are not carrying a pry-bar, a shovel, or a hammer, you are not likely carrying a sharpening stone.

With that in mind, our Military model was designed to be a light weight, strong cutting tool and I guarantee it will poke and cut with the best of the “hard use” and “abuse” folders, and probably better. It was not designed or built for abuse.

We have had many of our troops write to us thanking us for making the model that saved their booty when needed. They had it with them because it was light weight and easy to carry. When we create a knife for our troops, law enforcement or emergency personnel (SAS – Save And Serve), we are very serious about cutting performance and reliability.

Perhaps some think that there is only one way to design and build a knife? Or that their definition of usage is the only one there is? Perhaps they can show me the knives they’ve designed and produced and we can discuss the merits and drawbacks of their design? There are ALWAYS trade-offs in design. Weight, performance, price, etc.

I will say that there seems to be a growing demand for folding abuse knives and we have several on the drawing board. They are being designed and built to take abuse. But they will not likely be able to cut and poke with the efficiency of the thinner Military blade nor will they be as light.

Just some thoughts to share.

sal

well said Sal.

Your Endura 1 saved my father's "booty" in the early '90's.

I use folding knives pretty hard and subject them to an environment that they probably should not be used in. I hardly clean them. Sometimes I lose them. I cut and pry with them, scrape, dig, cut up fish, what have you.

The only point you make that I don't really agree with is that with the wide range of pocket sharpeners available that one might not have some sharpening device in the field. I actually have a sharpmaker on the boat for "field sharpening" if the need arises. I do a lot of cutting of modern synthetic rope that is usually impregnated with sand and does a number on an edge. The knife is usually dull at the end of the day. Sometimes I have to do more cutting than the edge can handle and have to pause to at least touch up the blade. I prefer a knife that I can get a working edge back on in minutes then have to take it home and put an hour into sharpening.

That said, I use and carry Spyderco exclusively at work. I just picked up a SE ZDP-189 Endura to take lobstering.

Sorry to the OP for the thread drift. Back on topic- the liner lock on the Military is extremely secure, or at least it was on the 4 that I have owned. I have never pried or batonned with a military, in fact I have limited experience with them. If you know the limits of your knife you should not have a problem.
 
My $.02:
I've used and carried a Military for around 4 years now (yes I was late to the game). However, I've been pretty happy with the end result. I have 1 particular Military that I've used for yardwork on occassion cutting shrubs, weeds, rose bushes, palm fronds, etc. I've always felt comfortable with the lock. Of all the knives I've handled over the years, it's probably the most well designed and user friendly one out there. Get yourself a Military and enjoy cutting stuff, and rest assured that you have an excellent knife that has been engineered for safety & comfortable cutting. :thumbup:
 
I have had a fully serrated millie for a while now ( yes I have a M4 on pre order.) and I have done things to this knife that Sal would frown at and it has held up great!! ( I doubt he would be angry...He's so mild mannered!) The last stupid thing I remember doing was "catching" tennis balls on it!!!! ( Yeah it was dangerous but super cool.)
TC
 
In reading this thread the one thing that keeps nagging at me is that if I need a a knife for hard use (what ever that may be) I would reach for an appropriately designed fixed blade to start with. This just seems like a more logical choice.

We could debate the merits of the Millie all day and still end up with a hundred opinions. There is no doubt that it is a very good knife and will work absolutely well for it's intended purpose.

If you have the choice of various knives at your disposal there is a good chance that the Millie would be used 7 times out of 10 for most tasks that require a knife. Just for not hard use / abuse type jobs.
 
In reading this thread the one thing that keeps nagging at me is that if I need a a knife for hard use (what ever that may be) I would reach for an appropriately designed fixed blade to start with. This just seems like a more logical choice.

The problem with that is that MOST people just can't carry a fixed blade as an EDC for various reasons.
 
The biggest stumbling block in the "hard use" discussion is what constitutes "hard use" and what constitutes "abuse". First of all, hard use for some knives is merely normal use for some fixed blades. Ok, now why is that? We could say that it is normal use for it because the design of the knife is sturdy and robust while it is abuse for another because of the design.

Maybe common sense is all we have in lieu of a proper definition. Obviously prying is a task that a custom Demko with triad lock is capable of, so this makes it hard use. We also know that some knives cannot take any kind of prying because of their build. Now anybody would be stupid to try to pry with a knife like this unless of course, that there is absolutely no choice and with dire consequences waiting.

I don't need to be a knife maker to know that one tip will snap and one will take it. I may not have designed any knives but I do have eyes that tell me when a tip is thin or thick. I have never made a practice of prying with any of my knives but I do sometimes have to pierce hard material like bamboo slats. I have lost quite a few tips on bolos and machetes doing that and since I have no designs of my own nor am I a knifemaker, I won't say whether that's hard use or not. However, I can say more or less that I can make a good judgement of whether a knife can take it or not. Maybe, that makes me a knuckle dragger(BTW, thanks Sal, for the gratuitous insult for such a classy guy).
 
thanks sal for putting words on things.

prying with a blade is no hard use, it's abuse.

hard use is just a new word for people to feel better about abusing their knives.

my main point here is why do you want a knife to pry when a simple, cheap, light, and thin tool can do it better, without risk of damaging 100$+ of knife ??? see here and scroll down http://www.endtimesreport.com/survival_shop.html
why making compromise on the cutting ability of a cutting tool when a 4"x0,5" pocket pry bar attached to your keys will handle waaaaAAAAaaaay more than the pivot on your sharpened pry bar could ??? 3" or 4"x0,5" of steel attached to your keys is too much weight for you ? don't get it.

see here again if you are interested.

and please gent's i'm not arguing i'd like to have an answer to this. what makes you want a thicker blade for prying when a 6$ disposable, thin and light tool can pry way better than a thick knife ?
 
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Maybe, that makes me a knuckle dragger(BTW, thanks Sal, for the gratuitous insult for such a classy guy).

I want to believe Sal meant this in jest. I fall into the knuckle dragger generalization and I am taking no offense. Sal is class.
 
thanks sal for putting words on things.

prying with a blade is no hard use, it's abuse.

hard use is just a new word for people to feel better about abusing their knives.

why making compromise on the cutting ability of a cutting tool when a 4"x0,5" pocket pry bar attached to your keys will handle waaaaAAAAaaaay more than the pivot on your sharpened pry bar could ??? 3" or 4"x0,5" of steel attached to your keys is too much weight for you ? don't get it.

see here if you are interested.

Oh but I don't really pry, as I mentioned I often have to pierce hard material, most often bamboo slats. Should I also be bringing a drill bit?

Why do you guys also conveniently ignore the fact that there is no compromise because most "hard use" guys carry a slicer too.
 
i've pierced my share of hard material with a stretch 2 zdp 20° inclusive. it still has it's point.

you've been talking about prying 5 pages long now you suddenly talk about something else ?

oh and don't misunderstand me. i own a couple of emerson, a strider sng, a benchmade 760 ... and i enjoy both just as much i enjoy thinner blade. they are cool toys, they just cut real bad no matter how much time you spend thinning the edge .
 
I want to believe Sal meant this in jest. I fall into the knuckle dragger generalization and I am taking no offense. Sal is class.

+1

Yea , Sal's post was informative and entertaining.

That is , unless you want to consider yourself a 'knuckledragger' :D





Tostig
 
I want to believe Sal meant this in jest. I fall into the knuckle dragger generalization and I am taking no offense. Sal is class.

Well, If that puts me in the same category as Mick Strider and Ken Onion....:thumbup: :D

Actually, I'm too thick skinned to be offended and I admire Sal's class and skill in making an insult sound like a jest. :D
 
There is no chance that the comment you cite below was made in anything but good humor, good will and good faith. :rolleyes:

The biggest stumbling block in the "hard use" discussion is what constitutes "hard use" and what constitutes "abuse". First of all, hard use for some knives is merely normal use for some fixed blades. Ok, now why is that? We could say that it is normal use for it because the design of the knife is sturdy and robust while it is abuse for another because of the design.

Maybe common sense is all we have in lieu of a proper definition. Obviously prying is a task that a custom Demko with triad lock is capable of, so this makes it hard use. We also know that some knives cannot take any kind of prying because of their build. Now anybody would be stupid to try to pry with a knife like this unless of course, that there is absolutely no choice and with dire consequences waiting.

I don't need to be a knife maker to know that one tip will snap and one will take it. I may not have designed any knives but I do have eyes that tell me when a tip is thin or thick. I have never made a practice of prying with any of my knives but I do sometimes have to pierce hard material like bamboo slats. I have lost quite a few tips on bolos and machetes doing that and since I have no designs of my own nor am I a knifemaker, I won't say whether that's hard use or not. However, I can say more or less that I can make a good judgement of whether a knife can take it or not. Maybe, that makes me a knuckle dragger(BTW, thanks Sal, for the gratuitous insult for such a classy guy).
 
Knuckledraggers are OK in my book.

Certainly there was no offense intended. I think Mick and Ken know me well enough to know that about me.

sal
 
The liner lock on my military failed durring some light batoning for kindling(quite a surprise) and now the knife had slight up/down blade play. Perhaps it was technique but I didn't have a fixed blade on me at the moment. Even though I consider the military liner lock the best on the market !!!
 
I have never had any problems with a Military lock or tip. It is a cutting knife (That's what knives do right. cut?) not a prying knife. It seems these days, "hard use" and mini-crowbar are synonymous descriptions for thick bladed over built knives that don't slice well. I have the solution for you guys that hate thin tips: CRKT sharpened pry bar knife It is a knife that looks like the tip was already snapped off.

I'm not making the argument that thin tips are as strong as thick tips. IMO thin tips are much more useful to me. I have a multi-tool to use if I need to do things other than cutting. I applaud Spyderco for not caving into the fad of the super overbuilt thick non-slicers that proliferate the market today.
 
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