How strong is the Liner lock for Spyderco Military?

[dePaul]

So it seems that most here seem to agree that thinner blades do not pry as well as thicker blades with thick tips. Obvious logic.

And it also seems that most agree that a thinner blade will slicd better than a thicker blade with thick tips. Obvious logic.

So, Singularity.

Using that same logic, would you agree that a thinner blade with a pointy tip will penetrate more effectively than a thick blade with a thick tip?

sal

Haha, good one Sal. No, I wouldn't agree on that. Blade geometry is far more complicated than that.

~Paul~

 

[Fredde90210]

So it seems that most here seem to agree that thinner blades do not pry as well as thicker blades with thick tips. Obvious logic.

And it also seems that most agree that a thinner blade will slicd better than a thicker blade with thick tips. Obvious logic.

So, Singularity.

Using that same logic, would you agree that a thinner blade with a pointy tip will penetrate more effectively than a thick blade with a thick tip?

sal

Touche...

 

[Sal Glesser]

Haha, good one Sal. No, I wouldn't agree on that. Blade geometry is far more complicated than that.

~Paul~

Hi Paul, Would you be so kind as to explain how blade geometry can make a thick prying tip penetrate as effectively as a thinner pointier tip.

Think ice pick vs chisel.

sal

 

[dePaul]

Well it all depends on what you are trying to penetrate and what the point looks like. A thin pointy tip with a pronounced bevel will not penetrate as well as a thicker (more meat behind the edge) convexed point if the point itself is let's say 2 μ, all because of the drag. Or am I missing something here?

~Paul~

 

[Sal Glesser]

Equal geomety. Equal steel. Going into meat.

Will a thinner pointier blade penetrate more effectively that a thick blade with a thick point?

(Please keep in mind that I do understand blade geometry and blade steels).

sal

 

[Ankerson]

So it seems that most here seem to agree that thinner blades do not pry as well as thicker blades with thick tips. Obvious logic.

And it also seems that most agree that a thinner blade will slicd better than a thicker blade with thick tips. Obvious logic.

So, Singularity.

Using that same logic, would you agree that a thinner blade with a pointy tip will penetrate more effectively than a thick blade with a thick tip?
sal

I would think that would be Obvious right?

 

[jill jackson]

It's long been understood that a double edged dagger while being the best for penetrating soft mediums, won't be nearly as strong as many other types. (even the single edge dagger) Always trade offs. It just depends on what you want.

 

[Ankerson]

It's long been understood that a double edged dagger while being the best for penetrating soft mediums, won't be nearly as strong as many other types. (even the single edge dagger) Always trade offs. It just depends on what you want.

That's the same reason why an ice pick is one of the best stabbing weapons etc that there is, better than most any knife on soft materials

I won't go into details, but it's extremely effective as time has shown.

Spyderco Wise the JD Smith is almost that good of a stabber with that blade shape it will go through even cardboard like it's not even there.

Look at about 3:38 to see what I mean.

[youtube]_cUTJD3TL3Q[/youtube]

 

[Ken44]

Haha, good one Sal. No, I wouldn't agree on that. Blade geometry is far more complicated than that.

~Paul~

Sal is dead on, and trying to explain it as simple as he can. It people don't understand stuff this simple I'm sure he feels the need to explain as simple as he can.

I hope you really don't think you know more than Sal about edge geometry. It seems you think you do.

 

[dePaul]

Equal geomety. Equal steel. Going into meat.

Will a thinner pointier blade penetrate more effectively that a thick blade with a thick point?

(Please keep in mind that I do understand blade geometry and blade steels).

sal

I know you understand blade geometry Sal and I have the greeatest respect for you.

If both blade points are about the same thickness at the very edge, let's say 2 microns and you intend to cut through meat that is thicker/higher than whole of the edgeprofile (for example 40 mm), than the drag should be greater in example 1 than in example 2 and thus cut less effectively, even though the blade is pointier?

The mass of the edge is greater in pic 2 than in pic 1. Thus thicker point?

~Paul~

 

[dePaul]

I hope you really don't think you know more than Sal about edge geometry. It seems you think you do.

No, I don't think that I know more about blade geometry than Sal. Please don't put more in to this matter than what's there and try not to be hostile .

~Paul~

 

[Sal Glesser]

Double the thickness of sample 2 (thicker), give both the same geometry. Will the thinner blade penetrate more effectively?

You must be a lawyer

sal

 

[JNewell]

It's long been understood that a double edged dagger while being the best for penetrating soft mediums, won't be nearly as strong as many other types. (even the single edge dagger) Always trade offs. It just depends on what you want.

Yes...in a similar vein (pun intended), I am here to tell you that the original Zowada blade will deeply penetrate meat with nothing more than gravity behind it. The Zowada is a single-edge blade, but that doesn't slow it down much, if any.

Edit to add pic from Spyderco website:

 

[Noctis3880]

I know you understand blade geometry Sal and I have the greeatest respect for you.

If both blade points are about the same thickness at the very edge, let's say 2 microns and you intend to cut through meat that is thicker/higher than whole of the edgeprofile (for example 40 mm), than the drag should be greater in example 1 than in example 2 and thus cut less effectively, even though the blade is pointier?

The mass of the edge is greater in pic 2 than in pic 1. Thus thicker point?

~Paul~

The concept is actually quite true of katanas where you want the entire blade to be pretty much thick and convex so that the medium you're cutting does not "drag" the blade. However, I feel this only holds true when cutting something exceptionally thick and solid(like a tatami mat wrapped around bamboo), and not something quite as wet and "squishy" as raw meat, as that will likely drag on the blade no matter how convex it is.

 

[dePaul]

Double the thickness of sample 2 (thicker), give both the same geometry. Will the thinner blade penetrate more effectively?

You must be a lawyer

sal

Haha . No, I'm not a lawyer. I wish though...

If the thickness is to be twice as big in pic 2 than the drag will of course be greater. That's obvious. Not as much as you'd think though . However that was not what I was talking about. I was aiming at the same point thickness at 2 microns and the same body thickness throughout this hole imaginary experiment .

~Paul~

 

[dePaul]

The concept is actually quite true of katanas where you want the entire blade to be pretty much thick and convex so that the medium you're cutting does not "drag" the blade. However, I feel this only holds true when cutting something exceptionally thick and solid(like a tatami mat wrapped around bamboo), and not something quite as wet and "squishy" as raw meat, as that will likely drag on the blade no matter how convex it is.

Yes, that's why I mentioned the importance of knowing what you are actually cutting and the thickness of the material.

If only the very point is to penetrate the surface of the material to be cut, than the very pointy straight edge is more effective. However, if the mass is thicker than that, the whole issue is much more complicated.

~Paul~

 

[Sal Glesser]

Haha . No, I'm not a lawyer. I wish though...

If the thickness is to be twice as big in pic 2 than the drag will of course be greater. That's obvious. Not as much as you'd think though . However that was not what I was talking about. I was aiming at the same point thickness at 2 microns and the same body thickness throughout this hole imaginary experiment .

~Paul~

You ae going to stab me. You have an ice pick and a screwdriver. Which will be easier to stab me with?

Are you sure you're not a lawyer?

sal

 

[kawr]

I guarantee that if Spyderco goes with thicker tips then we'll have a similar crapstorm with people whining about slicing/penetrating performance. I for one prefer the knife that performs well at what its supposed to do. CUT. I can always pay 10 bucks and get a pocket prybar if thats what I need. I think that Spyderco trys its best to find that solid middle ground between prybar toughness and razor sharp thinness and pretty much succeeds at that.

 

[kreole]

I know you understand blade geometry Sal and I have the greeatest respect for you.

If both blade points are about the same thickness at the very edge, let's say 2 microns and you intend to cut through meat that is thicker/higher than whole of the edgeprofile (for example 40 mm), than the drag should be greater in example 1 than in example 2 and thus cut less effectively, even though the blade is pointier?

The mass of the edge is greater in pic 2 than in pic 1. Thus thicker point?

~Paul~

Couple things...

"Drag" refers to the resistance of material passing through air or fluid, neither of which meat is

Anyway, if the edges are on blades of the same stock thickness, then #2 is going to have more resistance going into the meat for quite a bit of the tip, making it worse at penetrating. What you say about them being equal at the initial penetration (i.e., "at the very edge") can be true, but getting the rest of the tip in is going to be easier with #1. Your argument effectively ignores that more than the very edge penetrates material stabbed in every real situation. Also, cutting with the very edge/tip is called slicing, not penetrating/puncturing/stabbing, so really you're changing the argument.

 

[STR]

The drawing is not adequate. Lets look at a real pic instead. Para Military 2 left. Demko Custom Triad locking American Lawman HD folder right. Which do you suppose would penetrate easier or slice better? Not to take anything away from one over the other as both do a good job but to make the same cuts or go to the same depths the difference will be the force required. It stands to reason that more force means higher chances of there being less control. If one can make the same cuts with far more control of the cuts it stands to reason that it would be safer also.

I see inertia as being a factor. With enough inertia you could force the Demko as deep as the Para 2 but you could do it just as deep with far less inertia force using the Spyderco and with the same force the Spyderco would go lots further into the meat.

STR