i love the enduras throw the kershaws in the trash

[jkulysses]

Your "opinion" went in the trash before I even read your first post with a headline of "i love the enduras throw the kershaws in the trash". You need to look up the definition of tact. Well actually I'll post it up for you because your time should be consumed with learning how to use the shift button, which is under the caps lock button on the left and under the enter button on the right, and trying to figure out how to apply some tact to your daily life or at the very least try to integrate it into your online etiquette if you want anybody to take your tests even remotely serious.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tact

 

[Artfully Martial]

But the point was that Kershaws sucked, right? Part of determining the quality of the knife is the factory edge, for better or for worse. If it started with a good one and this guy makes it suck, it looks unfairly bad for Kershaw. If it started out with a bad edge and gets a good one it looks unfairly good for Kershaw.

It's data that gets lost as soon as you sharpen it. Alternatively you could do as I suggest and do your cutting tests with the factory edge, then you can do it with a custom edge and get that data. My way gets more data about the company and the steel.

Not that I particularly care, except as a matter of science. The opinions espoused were invalidated for the vast majority of us BF members almost immediately when writing so vitriolic was used. The impression I get, and that most of us (I think) get is that this is someone with an ax to grind, not some neutral observer.

 

[stabman]

This thread has inspired me to buy a Kershaw.
Maybe a ZT301 would be nice...

 

[hardheart]

But the point was that Kershaws sucked, right? Part of determining the quality of the knife is the factory edge, for better or for worse. If it started with a good one and this guy makes it suck, it looks unfairly bad for Kershaw. If it started out with a bad edge and gets a good one it looks unfairly good for Kershaw.

The only way to test edge retention is to know the conditions of the edge when starting (plus a whole lot more). The only way to repeat the tests is to know the condition of the edge when starting. There have been more than enough posts on individuals receiving knives of varying OOB sharpness from nearly every manufacturer to know that there is no parity in new condition edges. Consider how many people are sharpening these knives, at however many global locations, on whatever sharpening media they are using, at whatever stage in that abrasive's useful life, with absolutely no tracking or recording of that available to the person testing. Wavy edges, asymmetrical edges, incomplete sharpenings, chips, dents, rolls, burns, etc. can happen to any knife on the manufacturing floor, and not everyone is caught before going out the door or noticed by the user. And that's just problems, not the natural, expected variability among different people and different tools.

The test is not what takes the best edge, it is what keeps the best edge. These end user tests have enough variables as is without adding in entirely unknown sharpener, finish, tools & media used. What is the final grit of a Tualatin Kershaw, a Chinese one, a Taiwanese Spyderco, or a Colorado one? Who sharpened them, to what angle, how many passes, how much heat buildup did they allow, or a hundred other questions.

 

[Morrow]

Dennis has informed me he has sent a Shallot and Blackout to me to use and review. They will be my primary using knives on my lobster boat while I get my traps ready for the fishing season. I will review the knives as a whole over a long term period and not focus on just edge retention, etc. I will start an independent thread for each knife and update them regularly as I did for the knives that Spyderco sent. I appreciate the opportunity to test these knives and give my thoughts on them as well as increase my knowlege of a brand that I have limited experience with.

Both fine knives but I worry the Shallot is going to be a challenge to hold on to if it gets wet. If you want to test out a couple others with handles better suited to the environment you're working in....let me know. I'll send you a Blur (composite blade with ZDP-189) and a ZT-350 (S30V) to test on the boat.

 

[mrdavidross321]

kershaw and spyderco are my two fav. folding knife brands, great made u.s.a. products for affordable prices. both companys have not let me down with staying sharp for my daily tasks

 

[Artfully Martial]

There is a great deal of evidence that certain manufacturers, particularly among a particular knife, can consistently produce a good factory edge, and that original edge determines, in large part, the views that people generate about their knife--most people write in about their feelings for the knife within a few days and don't need to sharpen it yet.

There is no reason to believe that there is little or no parity. It doesn't match my experience. It doesn't even make sense when you consider how knives are made.

At any rate, if you want to get that technical, just throw out the entire test unless you want to do a sample of 15 knives of the same model since their heat treatment will vary slightly unless they were produced in the same batch, and even then their heat treats will vary ever so slightly.

This is nonsense. As if one guy's little experiment would dissuade us from following the experience of hundreds of Kershaw users on this forum. Even if he could demonstrate that a particular model wasn't heat treated properly (or any other issue) it would only demonstrate a problem with that particular model.

And from the test setup, he can't even demonstrate that one model is flawed unless he is willing to do a large enough batch to show that there's a reoccurring problem.

He's going to have to prove a lot to overcome the personal experimentation/experience of so many people over the years--the evidentiary standard is incredibly high here.

 

[DennisStrickland]

artfully thanks for you scientific advice but i have shipped knives to several well known testers on this forum. they know more about edges & alloys than you probably ever could conjecture on your best day. i have already bought 2 n.i.b. kershaws & sent to another formite & ordered the leek s30 . the difference in myself & so many talkers is i walk my talk while people such as yourself never make a concrete effort, you only work your lips. your articulate english however eloquent is nothing but words [talking the walk]. lets see you buy some knives do the cutting & post on the forum your scientific results. generally its a waste of time to reply to shallow thinkers but there are many others out in the sidelines that know me for my honesty & reported results of tested alloys. please start cutting & then maybe you can walk the talk. dennis

 

[2brothers]

artfully thanks for you scientific advice but i have shipped knives to several well known testers on this forum. they know more about edges & alloys than you probably ever could conjecture on your best day. i have already bought 2 n.i.b. kershaws & sent to another formite & ordered the leek s30 . the difference in myself & so many talkers is i walk my talk while people such as yourself never make a concrete effort, you only work your lips. your articulate english however eloquent is nothing but words [talking the walk]. lets see you buy some knives do the cutting & post on the forum your scientific results. generally its a waste of time to reply to shallow thinkers but there are many others out in the sidelines that know me for my honesty & reported results of tested alloys. please start cutting & then maybe you can walk the talk. dennis

Good grief Dennis, tell him what you really think about him. Don't hold back now...

 

[N4SIR]

Its quite amusing to see a grown man act like a kid in a gaming forum or something.What i got from this entire thread was someone trolling with an obvious argumentative statement and then try to back it it with alot of smart talk.. Now i know the kershaw guys are concerned that someone will see dennis's posts and not purchase their products but anyone with simple reading comprehension skills can see the forest for the trees and make their own mind up.

I don't particularly care for spydercos but im not going to make a thread and state something like what the TS did.Truth be told spydercos are great knives .. I have bought and sold over 400 folders since 1990 many of which were kershaws i have never gotten one that wasn't shaving sharp and didnt hold their edge for weeks of constant use.. Unless dennis was using a metal file like the guy in the wickedsharp video i doubt the veracity of his statement and regardless the way he made this thread should state his opinion and bias.

i spend my days taking the lesser evolved of our species off the streets of brooklyn for the city of ny.. I come on this forum for lighthearted banter and solid reviews and info on knives.. 90% of my purchases are based on the viewpoints of members and posting something like this is not only highly inflammatory in nature its untrue. I am a scary judge of character and this character just wants attention (positive or negative) and wants to win people over to his viewpoint i dont care about rope and paper cutting tests and metallurgy thats his smokescreen for his real agenda which is getting people to pay him attention

 

[Handwrecker]

_____

 

[M67]

Some of the sharpest knives I've owned have been Kershaw (1550, and the 1550 T).

If you want to see cutting, I got a pic of where I slashed off a chunk of my finger somewhere with it

 

[Artfully Martial]

artfully thanks for you scientific advice but i have shipped knives to several well known testers on this forum. they know more about edges & alloys than you probably ever could conjecture on your best day. i have already bought 2 n.i.b. kershaws & sent to another formite & ordered the leek s30 . the difference in myself & so many talkers is i walk my talk while people such as yourself never make a concrete effort, you only work your lips. your articulate english however eloquent is nothing but words [talking the walk]. lets see you buy some knives do the cutting & post on the forum your scientific results. generally its a waste of time to reply to shallow thinkers but there are many others out in the sidelines that know me for my honesty & reported results of tested alloys. please start cutting & then maybe you can walk the talk. dennis

But you didn't or couldn't dispute my argument. Simple ad hominem attacks don't just automatically justify your position on debated issues.

At any rate, as far as I know, you're just some dude in a garage. I'm not sure why I should just intuitively know your name and defer to your allegedly superior wisdom. Or why your experiences seem to override virtually the entirety of this forum's. Including the president of Kershaw, who, if we're speaking strictly in terms of arguments from authority, should override virtually everyone.

And I suppose that's kind of fundamental here--you act as if we should just defer to your authority without presenting some sort of reason to do so. You claim all this experience, but why should I believe that it exists? Now Thomas W, on the other hand, he's literally the president of, in more than one way, the most important knife maker in the world.

I guess what I'm getting to is, maybe you do know way more than me about knives, but I just haven't seen that illustrated. And the burden is exponentially greater to show me that I should trust your opinion over the president of Kershaw's.

That said, this is just mindless trolling. I'll jump back in if there's meaningful debate in the future. I recommend others to abandon this also. The good news is, then, that you can have the last word and, I suppose, claim some sort of victory that, yes, you got someone on the internet to quit arguing before you did.

So if you really need internet forum arguments to boost your confidence, there you go. I'm hooking you up today.

 

[hardheart]

There is a great deal of evidence that certain manufacturers, particularly among a particular knife, can consistently produce a good factory edge, and that original edge determines, in large part, the views that people generate about their knife--most people write in about their feelings for the knife within a few days and don't need to sharpen it yet.

the problem in testing is that a 'good' edge covers a very wide range. There are people here who will not sharpen beyond 400 grit, there are others who will not stop until 60,000 grit. Both edges will be 'good' for their needs and preferences, but they will not be comparable in any test that attempts to subject both edges to the same work under the same conditions. We sharpen at different grits for different reasons, for different results.

There is no reason to believe that there is little or no parity. It doesn't match my experience. It doesn't even make sense when you consider how knives are made.

It makes plenty of sense when there are published papers testing and demonstrating the difference in edge retention between sample knives of the same steel, same manufacturer, same design, same primary grind, sharpened at different angles and different grits. The initial sharpness and total work differ with just a change in sharpening.

At any rate, if you want to get that technical, just throw out the entire test unless you want to do a sample of 15 knives of the same model since their heat treatment will vary slightly unless they were produced in the same batch, and even then their heat treats will vary ever so slightly.

agreed

He's going to have to prove a lot to overcome the personal experimentation/experience of so many people over the years--the evidentiary standard is incredibly high here.

I don't think it is, for any brand, steel, or sharpening procedure. They all have fans and detractors, and none have very solid numbers. It's a lot of subjective and unrestricted assessment. This won't be a lot better.

But my point is, factory edges from two different factories are not acceptable if what you want to test is the alloy. It's bad enough that the knives are shaped differently above the edge, plus you don't know where else performance differences come in.

The factory edge is only there until you sharpen it, and from then on it is your edge you are working with and relying on. Unless you want to send it in every time it needs to be touched up - at which point somebody other than the person who sharpened it the first time sharpens it again in the repair dept., leaving the edge permanently altered anyway.

 

[Toyz]

Its quite amusing to see a grown man act like a kid in a gaming forum or something.What i got from this entire thread was someone trolling with an obvious argumentative statement and then try to back it it with alot of smart talk.. Now i know the kershaw guys are concerned that someone will see dennis's posts and not purchase their products but anyone with simple reading comprehension skills can see the forest for the trees and make their own mind up.

I don't particularly care for spydercos but im not going to make a thread and state something like what the TS did.Truth be told spydercos are great knives .. I have bought and sold over 400 folders since 1990 many of which were kershaws i have never gotten one that wasn't shaving sharp and didnt hold their edge for weeks of constant use.. Unless dennis was using a metal file like the guy in the wickedsharp video i doubt the veracity of his statement and regardless the way he made this thread should state his opinion and bias.

i spend my days taking the lesser evolved of our species off the streets of brooklyn for the city of ny.. I come on this forum for lighthearted banter and solid reviews and info on knives.. 90% of my purchases are based on the viewpoints of members and posting something like this is not only highly inflammatory in nature its untrue. I am a scary judge of character and this character just wants attention (positive or negative) and wants to win people over to his viewpoint i dont care about rope and paper cutting tests and metallurgy thats his smokescreen for his real agenda which is getting people to pay him attention

I have only been a member here for a few more years than you - but I have lurked before then, and I have seen Sooooooooooooooo many of these types of threads, and not only here but on other forums as well.

I enjoy reading all points of view when it comes to knives - and as an intelligent consumer it's up to me to decide what should affect my purchasing decision and what should not.

Everyone has opinions - some express them more strongly than others.

I don't have a dog in this fight until the results of the testing are posted, and I perform similar tests and experience contrary results. I will tell you that this has peaked my curiosity, and I just might have to buy the knife(s) in question and give them a run around the track.

To me - the fairweather knife user - the entire package needs to be considered - company reputation, standing in the community, warranty, design, ergonomics, steel, etc. etc.

I'm glad that some of the forum members have the determination to perform the testing that they do, and some of the knife companies are here to explain the reasoning why their designs and choices of materials were chosen.

 

[Jason B.]

One question I would like to ask is what's your idea of edge retention on super steels? Most usually use slicing some sort of object or shaving hair but when speaking of super steels and their almost endless edge retention these "tests" of edge holding are useless.

If you measure a steel like S30V or CPM D2 until they stop shaving then IMO you have only reached 10% of its capabilities. These steels DO NOT act like most would expect in a steel, the edge gets rough and burred in very short order and only gets "worse" as the cutting continues. The odd feature of this mode of edge dulling is that even when "dull" by most standards the edge is still capable of cutting like a much sharper knife. What's even more odd is that with some abrasive cutting tasks the edges re-sharpen themselves believe it or not.



So what's your idea of edge retention? and can you distinguish the differences properly between alloys?

 

[jimnolimit]

I enjoy reading all points of view when it comes to knives - and as an intelligent consumer it's up to me to decide what should affect my purchasing decision and what should not.

Everyone has opinions - some express them more strongly than others.

To me - the fairweather knife user - the entire package needs to be considered - company reputation, standing in the community, warranty, design, ergonomics, steel, etc. etc.

I'm glad that some of the forum members have the determination to perform the testing that they do, and some of the knife companies are here to explain the reasoning why their designs and choices of materials were chosen.

^ +1.

whether im reviewing a knife or a restaurant i always look at the whole spectrum of reviews. i know there will always be overly negative and positive reviews. bad products will have many unhappy customers and typically, reoccurring problems. with knives, there are many different individuals using their knives in all different ways. if the large majority of customers are happy with their purchase and how their knife/knives perform, I will look at it as a good product.

 

[DennisStrickland]

in fairness to a larger group, i'll test the edge as it comes from the mail. as a gauge i'm still considering using an vg10 flat grind, buck vantage pro in 30v,or other models. i have to see what the leek s30 blade profile is. if i cut with basically the same bevels & same amount of blade it will be more equal. blade profiles affect much of the pressure required to cut the cardboard increasing lateral stress. i was fortunate to get a good load of new boxes that not only have identical edge crush poundage but made by the same company.these tests are not as accurate as ones made by knarfeng & ankerson however in the past18 to 20 months their results showed about a 90% direct correlation with my prelim cardboard. some results by these parties were'nt posted on the forum since the info was chosen by the tester to remain in their records & shared with a few friends.i have always tried in past to not list numerical values since this is private research performed by parties with good empirical methodology.factors such as rockwell hardnesses, edge angle bevels, cutting length of blades, different alloys,& use of measured weight & or pressure poundage were factors that were tried to keep as constant variables. some used sisal rope & others gauged the factor of edge abrasion by poundage or amount of light reflection on the edge. whatever my initial cardboard cutting did give a decent prediction as to how alloys would perform on sisal rope in 3/8ths & 5/8ths diameter. i try to post the results accurately but also to keep my evaluation as a peripheral opinion. these tests are not the final word but as with as such procedures do give some information as to alloy performance. the results always generate lots of detractors & lots of supporters. as i always mention, all opinions are welcome but please consider the fact that vocal expressions are best supported by parties that actually get down & dirty & do some cutting themselves.--dennis

 

[DennisStrickland]

as always when initiation of a product test there is lots of verbilage. i will try to use blades with as constant bevels & levels of sharpness as i can. i do'nt have the engineering ability or tools to measure as exact as some of my colleagues but in past cutting results my cardboard tests were about 90% of tests repeated on sisal rope. when the things get rolling a ton of opinions arrive. this is all good since it stimulates interest in alloys & knives. of course much of same is what the forum is about--[interest in knives]. i will probably do initial cutting with the blade from the box. after using the edge pro i'll attempt to produce as equal a bevel & polish sharpness as possible. most earlier results all showed an increase in performance with changing & improving the cutting edge.i was fortunate to obtain new boxes with identical edge crush poundage & also made in the same factory. it will be necessary to check out the blade profile so as to eliminate lateral stress on the edges. whatever i'll post my results & let members form their opinions. hopefully we will get more cutters along with the talkers this trip.--dennis

 

[N4SIR]

I have only been a member here for a few more years than you - but I have lurked before then, and I have seen Sooooooooooooooo many of these types of threads, and not only here but on other forums as well.

I enjoy reading all points of view when it comes to knives - and as an intelligent consumer it's up to me to decide what should affect my purchasing decision and what should not.

Everyone has opinions - some express them more strongly than others.

I don't have a dog in this fight until the results of the testing are posted, and I perform similar tests and experience contrary results. I will tell you that this has peaked my curiosity, and I just might have to buy the knife(s) in question and give them a run around the track.

To me - the fairweather knife user - the entire package needs to be considered - company reputation, standing in the community, warranty, design, ergonomics, steel, etc. etc.

I'm glad that some of the forum members have the determination to perform the testing that they do, and some of the knife companies are here to explain the reasoning why their designs and choices of materials were chosen.

It is of course, up to the consumer to intelligently decide which knife to buy or who to take advice from.That being said making inflammatory threads thats say "throw kershaws in the trash" and then try to talk in circles around people asking questions and try to cover his end saying its his "opinion" etc.. or completely ignore other points made and talk about the extensive "testing" that is going to be done so that he might change his mind and allow the rest of us to buy kershaw knives again...

How is it that what this guy thinks about knives and his opinion influence ANY of ours...when it all comes down to it the knife owner decides the value of his/her knife and not some person on the internet..if we all blindly followed peoples opinions on the internet we'd all be wearing nutnfancy shirts and buying knives that weigh under 4oz or buying enduras and slamming kershaw based on some stranger on the internets opinion.

if someone chooses to be useful and post some testing results for us to look at thats nice.Reviews are also great but if someone is biased and not impartial those tests and reviews become tainted.Not every single knife you own has to be zdp 189 or el max or some hitori honzo sword metal.. 154cm works fine just as s30v it all comes down to maintenance and care for the tool in hand.Of course some metals have better edge retention , but most of us will still edc based on our own choices and opinions of the non biased members of this forum.

if you want to run a bunch of "tests" with your friends thats great. We can all use the info and make up our own minds about whats what.But don't make a post telling people to throw out a particular brand of knife and not expect to be called on it. And if you were just kidding or doing it to get more reads then shame on you and my initial opinion of you would stand.